Louise O Neill on rape culture.

anna080 wrote: »

Honestly I think these women just hate themselves and blame society for that and take their anger out on the world around them.

I agree with that-tbh. They change the self hate (such as bulimia/ anorexia/ depression-the last I have too much experience with) to outward blame or hatred of society-that they aren't perceived as 'sexy' by the masses. Yet 'sexy' is, I feel, something one can become-it's not genetic-at least not entirely. There have been some women who were not considered 'sexy', got a makeover, and suddenly it was like 'hey gurl'... For ladies, Benedict Cumberbatch went from 'oh yeah, that guy in that thing...' to 'oh yeah...him...wait, is he reading R. Kelly...oh my...'.
There are many unconventionally attractive people who are attractive to many because there is a confidence, or 'light' that they exude that makes em attractive.
For me, I never understood the hype around certain ladies-Megan Fox, for example-because I just saw a bland, rather irritating person. On the other hand, I think Mindy Kaling is really cute.

I found it telling when RMC was all like 'why didn't people hit on me when I wore a bikini'-then proceed to condemn society for objectifying women. Seems if folks had been al laike 'La bella RMC' while she wore the bikini, she might have gone on to call wearing a bikini 'empowering' to women.

76544567 wrote: »

My friend's wife is as radical a feminist as you can get. I actually think she wants all men dead, including my friend, who has provided what she needed now and is of no use to her anymore.

She has long fully grey hair down to her arse. It really is shocking looking and she could easy look like a normal woman if she took a bit of pride in her appearance.
One or two of the womem in our social circle have had a kind chat with her about her appearance and then got the tirade off her about how she isn't falsely going to change her ways for MEN. Ehm it's actually everyone who thinks you look like a witch, including your you children who listen to their friends calling their mother a witch.

Let her look like a witch if she wants i say as long as i don't have to look at her, but Jesus she should shut up about the femenism stuff. It hurts everybody's ears, even the women's at this stage. None of us can stand to be around her anymore. Even the women avoid her as often as possie and have taken to having girly themes to any event they have only so that she doesn't turn up.

And her poor children. And she wasn't like that when my friend married her. He's a shell of a man now too, but he made his bed himself. He can get out of it himself if he wants. Married to a woman who could play a witch in a movie without makeup and treated like sh1t. He even said to me he is actually afraid of how the children, 3 girls and 1 boy will turn out if he leaves.

Can people not just be normal people anymore.

Why should he have to chose between remaining in what sounds to be an abusive situation to be with the children and leaving an abusive situation and be afraid of how the children will turn out if he leaves. Why should society almost automatically see this as the default choice?

'Feminism' claims to be all about equality but is strangely silent on the glaring inequalities in our family law system.

Similarly with domestic violence. From the beginning with Erin Pizzey and the first domestic violence shelters it was seen that domestic violence is not a gender issue, men and women are equally responsible yet where (outside some of the nordic countries) are the domestic violence shelters for men? Where is the vast state sponsored support network for male victims of domestic violence?

If feminism is about equality where are their campaigns for equal treatment, equal resources and equal funding? It is clear feminism is about tackling areas of female disadvantage (and in the developed western world there are fewer and fewer of these) rather than about equality.

silverharp wrote: »

did she catch feminism after they married? the general advise would be dont marry or even date a feminist, its bound to be a car wreck.

It wouldnt be an abusive relationship at all. She just hates him
I think she hates everyone actually, including herself.

In years gone by she used to go on the odd rant and we all agreed with her to her face rather than argue. But she wasnt that bad at all. Just funny.
Roll on 10 years and she is a certifiable lunatic self professed feminist.

The more militant she got the uglier she got, or it might have been the other way round. The uglier she got the more feminist she became.

Even was in my house and saw my wife unloading the dishwasher and sneered at her and asked her why I wasnt doing it. The wife just said it was part of the deal when we got married, she would do the dishes and mind the kids and i would go out to work, so shes used to it - she was joking. Well that went down like a lead balloon. My wife told me she was glad there were two other friends in the house that day. They try and avoid her at all times now.

She cant even see that all her old female friends avoid her because she is a hardline feminist. She thinks its the men that are telling them to stay away. Now us ,en like women with a mind of their own, not a mind yer wan is telling them they should have.

Oh man, i have to stop posting here. I feel sick every time I even think of any woman long grey hair now. It is disgusting to look at and easily puts 20 years on a woman. And it shows a lack of pride in personal appearance too. Tidy yourself up for yourself or others, but tidy yourself up please.

sorry for the little rant. I'll get my coat.

Mod: banned.

anna080 wrote: »

Honestly I think these women just hate themselves and blame society for that and take their anger out on the world around them.

Would agree with this, I sense that psychological issues may be present in certain cases.

To me eyes many of these women seem to be desperately unhappy.

ivytwine wrote: »

Hate to get all #notallfeminists but most women who I know who identify as feminists are actually fairly normal people. Many of them are in healthy relationships with men!

There's a reason why a lot of women stay quiet during these debates, the most extreme voices are the loudest and ain't nobody got time for that.

One bizarre zealot (not sure what her witch hair has to do with it) does not a group make.

Yeah, the comment on her appearance is a bit uncalled for-I know too many people who get that crap in their daily lives-by close minded people who just won't walk over and talk to them. Sometimes a neglect of one's outer appearance is down to something being 'off'-ie something troubling them. I know myself, if I haven't shaved my face for a week or so, it's down to something going on-so just busting out the electric razor fixes that-helps me get back to normal- i start to feel productive then. For others, that may mean more of a change.

I've encountered a few of em-tbh, and it's sad. The loud folks scream so loud, but illogical trash-hurtful, spiteful stuff too. Like, the pay gap myth pops up again, and again. A few weeks back, a friend told me how someone she knows got into a debate with another 20 something girl about the pay gap thing-she retorted with 'but so many CEO's are male'-when he said 'but there's this person, this person,this person (all female, bar one trans woman) she shot back with 'but that person is trans'-as if being trans was so easy. Never mind the stigmas, and other opinions about a trans individual-as well as the 'they are tricking straight men/ women into having sex with them' craziness.

I felt angry and disappointed-I know that person-she's one of these 'ultra feminists' despite relying on her boyfriend cos he has a car. Also bisexual, and her attitude, considering the stigma of bisexuality, is rather ugly.

I won't lie though-I cannot judge a person, or most people, because up until my late teens I was homophobic-not to the point of going around beating lgbt people up, but instead saying horrible crud. And words can sting far more than some punches.
A friend of mine is bisexual-she sort of had similar feelings as a teen, this whole 'anti-lesbian/ anti-bisexuality' thing. Until she realised how wrong she was being, as she was bisexual herself.

ivytwine wrote: »

I take your point but I think we're at risk of overstating LON etc and the NWCI's actual influence on society. What has changed really? The consent classes have been a flop. The 8th is still there- and that will change because moderate people and doctors, lawyers etc are putting the groundwork in to do so. The consent ruling was actually legally needed and does, I feel, out greater clarity for how a rape case should be prosecuted. As I have said countless times the practical aspects of what rape victims have to go through, legally, with supports etc are almost never addressed by these campaigners, so nothing has changed there certainly.

The biggest problem of the consent classes-well, besides the entire premise of the consent classes-is that they were founded on a falsity-too much 'hearsay', not enough facts. And when one claims hearsay as facts, it's downhill from there. And in this case, there were no facts supporting the 'facebook page'.
So if you want to have consent classes, that is fine. Totally. But if you are saying 'we are having consent classes because of you nasty people and your 200 friends'-which turns out to be a lie, then you're in totally dangerous territory. Still think Trinity and their forced consent classes are completely illogical. To me, better sex education and 'letting someone know what's cool and what isn't' is far better. Like, don't be afraid to say 'yeah, I'm not liking that'. I mean, if one gets a burger in a takeaway, or a fancy restaurant, we are gonna say if this food tastes bad. It's just normal. Why wouldn't one do the same with intimacy?

The people on twitter were not the folks who 'made gra the law', far from it. It was the people on the ground, folks who posted in letters and pamphlets, the genuine folks who said 'this is my life, I just want to be able to marry someone who is of the same gender to myself. I'm like you, but I just cannot marry my boyfriend/girlfriend'. And really, the tears, the joy, the looks on people's faces when it went through. IT was lovely. There were a few crazies who were like 'ban surrogacy now, so gay folks cannot have kids' as well as a gay couple who, not understanding the law, tried to get married that day, then complained to have been let 'down by their country'. I don't think they quite got that once the vote passes, it takes another couple of weeks/ months to put it into the constitution.

I think the risk is when you're politically engaged on a certain issue you assume everyone is. And they're not. There are people all over Ireland who just don't care about this stuff. I'm not saying the current discourse with its extremes on both sides hasn't done some damage to how men and women relate to each other, but that's always been a bit ****ed up anyway. I don't see large amounts of either outside Twitter, Tumblr, Reddit. Where it's easy to be amplified. Your average Joe and Josephine just don't engage. I guess I'm optimistic cos of humanity's apathy?

It's sort of the 'theatre of the oppressed'-claim to be starting a revolution, then actually just pushing the norms and doing nothing. Mainly because 'you cannot start a revolution with the people, because the folks paying you to publish/ print' your work, are rich folks, not ordinary joes. So if you try to rebel against them, who's gonna pay to read your stuff?
LoN and co claim to be pushing for all this stuff to happen-but really, they are looking out for themselves. Nothing they claim to champion will happen-but they will continue to cry 'oppression'. The 'revolution' is just a vague term-like empowerment.

As for young women... yes that's definitely a factor. But most I think, are like myself, able to separate the wheat from the chaff, and the minority of those who can't are just immature IMO. When I was 18 I used to believe the most ridiculous things about gender and I was terribly cynical and black and white. I'm glad twitter wasn't around! Life happened and I grew up.

Also the reason LON etc are given their platform in the media is because newspapers are desperate for readers and clicks. They know these articles will get people talking, and reasonable positions just don't. It's unfortunately a complete mess media wise at the moment. I used to edit for a website and some of my favourite writers who were measured and reasonable (on all sorts of topics, not just politics) didn't draw engagement the way more controversial articles did. Even if they were often not as well written.

Yeah, see above with the 'theatre of the oppressed'. I would imagine if you tried to tell LoN why she was writing badly, as in how her articles are badly written, you'd get told off for 'mansplaining' or 'not being a real feminist' or 'internalised misogyny'.

Sadly, some people are so pessimistic and negative about the world, they believe all teh crud you could imagine. See Jim Corr and his claims.

Also, this was on the twitter.
Dear lawd-as if Irish means 'white'. They never heard of Thin Lizzy?
https://twitter.com/femifisting/status/842870404775591936/photo/1

A poster recently complained about an obsession with Louise O'Neill and now anything not about her is being deleted! I was under the impression a slight bit of deviation from the literal wording of the title was acceptable in most Boards conversations? It's a bit restrictive to only be allowed to talk about an aspect of feminism that has been spoken about by Louise O'Neill!.

Just to point out, some people became MRAs because they genuinely resent having grown up in what they perceive to be a gynocentric society - and their grievance is not against a particular woman or even women in general, but simply against what they see as double standards against them which go ignored, or even championed, by the exact same mainstream society which rightfully demonises and opposes any double standards which target women.

The root cause of the growth in MRA and MGTOW movements is that many young men feel they live in a society which preaches the message "male = bad, female = good" in a not so subtle manner, and they resent this. Nothing more, nothing less.

I for one really wish that reasonable, moderate feminists would think about this the next time they're about to click retweet or share on some article which begins with a patronising headline like "we need to talk about X..." where X is some behaviour or trait stereotypically applied to men without a "some" qualifier.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Just to point out, some people became MRAs because they genuinely resent having grown up in what they perceive to be a gynocentric society - and their grievance is not against a particular woman or even women in general, but simply against what they see as double standards against them which go ignored, or even championed, by the exact same mainstream society which rightfully demonises and opposes any double standards which target women.

The root cause of the growth in MRA and MGTOW movements is that many young men feel they live in a society which preaches the message "male = bad, female = good" in a not so subtle manner, and they resent this. Nothing more, nothing less.

I for one really wish that reasonable, moderate feminists would think about this the next time they're about to click retweet or share on some article which begins with a patronising headline like "we need to talk about X..." where X is some behaviour or trait stereotypically applied to men without a "some" qualifier.

Gynocentric society?

Widdershins wrote: »

Gynocentric society?

A society which sends the message that women are inherently 'special' or matter more just because they're female. When you're a young boy growing up, without any historical or contextual knowledge, and people say things like "ladies first" and "never hit a girl even if she attacks you", and this kind of message is reinforced by pop culture in hundreds of different ways (nursery rhymes praising girls while attacking boys are particularly insidious in this regard), then what exactly is a boy supposed to think about his place in society or how he's viewed on the basis of his gender?

Feminists are always talking (sometimes very legitimately) about how societal tropes harm girls and young women, but the fact that when people are kids girls tend to be put on an automatic gender based pedestal by adults (and thereby encouraged to do so themselves in the playground etc), this is something that is obviously going to have a knock on effect on boys' self-confidence and how they view themselves and their place in the world.

EDIT: I can give one or two examples of how this manifests in adults, as well as in kids.

Example A: If people on the radio are talking about women being under-represented in corporate achievement, that's a crime against humanity which is clearly caused by sexism - but if women are over-represented in educational achievement, that's a fantastic, wonderful thing and simply a sign of female potential - not the result of any systematic discrimination against males which needs to be tackled or dealt with somehow.

Example B: The whole argument around FGM, which is a horrific and totally unacceptable thing and is rightly being roundly condemned and attacked by feminists all over the world - but even though it's far less severe, the fact that a boy's penis is seen as fair game for a surgical procedure which is done for cultural or cosmetic reasons most of the time and which alters the sexual function of the penis, sends the simple message that "girls and their bodily autonomy is a sacred, non-negotiable thing - boys, well meh who gives a f*ck, slice them up if you like".

Honestly - what other conclusion is a preteen or teenage boy supposed to draw from these tropes? And I could ramble on providing dozens of other examples if people still didn't understand what I'm trying to illustrate here.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

A society which sends the message that women are inherently 'special' or matter more just because they're female. When you're a young boy growing up, without any historical or contextual knowledge, and people say things like "ladies first" and "never hit a girl even if she attacks you", and this kind of message is reinforced by pop culture in hundreds of different ways (nursery rhymes praising girls while attacking boys are particularly insidious in this regard), then what exactly is a boy supposed to think about his place in society or how he's viewed on the basis of his gender?

Feminists are always talking (sometimes very legitimately) about how societal tropes harm girls and young women, but the fact that when people are kids girls tend to be put on an automatic gender based pedestal by adults (and thereby encouraged to do so themselves in the playground etc), this is something that is obviously going to have a knock on effect on boys' self-confidence and how they view themselves and their place in the world.

EDIT: I can give one or two examples of how this manifests in adults, as well as in kids.

Example A: If people on the radio are talking about women being under-represented in corporate achievement, that's a crime against humanity which is clearly caused by sexism - but if women are over-represented in educational achievement, that's a fantastic, wonderful thing and simply a sign of female potential - not the result of any systematic discrimination against males which needs to be tackled or dealt with somehow.

Example B: The whole argument around FGM, which is a horrific and totally unacceptable thing and is rightly being roundly condemned and attacked by feminists all over the world - but even though it's far less severe, the fact that a boy's penis is seen as fair game for a surgical procedure which is done for cultural or cosmetic reasons most of the time and which alters the sexual function of the penis, sends the simple message that "girls and their bodily autonomy is a sacred, non-negotiable thing - boys, well meh who gives a f*ck, slice them up if you like".

Honestly - what other conclusion is a preteen or teenage boy supposed to draw from these tropes? And I could ramble on providing dozens of other examples if people still didn't understand what I'm trying to illustrate here.

I hadn't seen your edited part. Well I don't think circumcision is looked on like that. Yes FGM is more severe. I don't think there's more to this than that. I happen to know Irish women who call FGM ''just a little nick'' but they are wholly anti circumcision. It all depends on who you listen to!

LON definitely hasn't mentioned FGM by the way. And she probably hasn't tweeted about circumcision.

Well it seems that all it requires for rape culture to be present is a supposed accusation of harassment.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/louise-oneill/louise-o39neill-powerful-men-accused-of-crimes-against-women-should-fail-at-the-box-office-445543.html

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

She's blinded too-it's always 'the straight white man'-yet she ignores non-white folks, as well as women.

Michael Jackson-yep, everybody knows that case. Rebecca Gayheart-went to jail for manslaughter (killed a kid with her car), picked up quite a few gigs afterwards. Don King shot a guy, and stomped another guy to death over money owed.Laura Bush drove through a stop sign, and killed a classmate. Snoop dog killed a rival gang member.Charles S. Dutto killed a guy when he was 17. He's now a famous actor.

Folks get away with horrible crimes all the time-Kobe Bryant was accused of rape, stood trial for it, and yet the case collapsed because his alleged victim didn't want to testify. Bryant is far from white, yet he walked away from the case, with an unblemished, untarnished reputation. Look at Mike Tyson-same story (tho Tyson's is more questionable than Bryant's case). R. Kelly-statutory rape-yet the guy is celebrated.

And then we look at so-called 'feminists'-Paula Poundstone-accused of molesting a foster child. Amy Schumer jokes about the time she 'raped a guy' while Lena Dunham talks about how she 'forced a gay guy to make out with her'-it's in her book. Then complained when a black basketball player didn't hit on her (never mind she has a boyfriend).
And with the Depp case-she ignores how Amber Heard attacked an ex girlfriend-while Depp has not had any violence with previous girlfriend(s). And yet Heard got many high profile gigs after. Victor Salvas is a convicted paedophile, and yet he still gets work. And Singer, an openly gay man, has had numerous allegations of impropriety with young men. Yet he still makes the x-men movies.

Who is she to say we 'boycott' these people based on allegations? Rape, domestic violence, and so forth are horrible crimes-horrible. But we cannot have a trial by media/ public opinion. It's a metaphorcal flogging in public, which is all kinds of wrong.

Though I did laugh at her 'what if everyone conciously boycotted them' angle-this is the same woman who couldn't be bothered to march for 'a day without women'. She's the last person who would lead a boycott.

''What if everyone else consciously boycotted them''