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Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 886 ✭✭✭cosanostra


    The chain of events leading to this crash is starting to grow. As I said earlier, there's likely to be 5 or 6 actual causes of this once the final report comes out.

    116 couldn't establish comms with 118 they requested shannon attempt they also couldn't reach them and got a commercial airliner to attempt which also failed


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,893 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    cosanostra wrote: »
    This video posted by the navy shows that the recovery process will be quite challenging https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1278630312219862&id=101764433239795

    If there is no progress in recovery today, nothing will probably happen tomorrow as gale force winds are forecast.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 886 ✭✭✭cosanostra


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    If there is no progress in recovery today, nothing will probably happen tomorrow as gale force winds are forecast.

    Granuaile will not be on scene til tomorrow morning celtic voyager has returned to Galway


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,708 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    Calina wrote: »
    I am concerned that the Air Corps is short personnel for flying and air traffic control out of hours. Even outside the context of what happened to R116 this needs to be queried and addressed.

    This is the same air corps that phoned up the minister in 2010 stating they could do it for far cheaper than CHC were being paid.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    I'm not comfortable with some of the speculative posts on what could have brought down this helicopter. It could have been any of dozens of reasons and it adds nothing to just guess one of them.

    Henry, I get what your saying but you've to remember this is a discussion site after all. Alot of people on here would much rather read something here than a newspaper. I don't think anyone is saying 'x brought it down' more so it could have been this or that. People are in shock and the main question on everyone's mind I think is 'how could this have happened', the sooner it's known the better, what ever way the report finishes be it a fault with aircraft/policy/regulation/training we may be able to stop another accident from happening.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,416 ✭✭✭sjb25


    I'm not comfortable with some of the speculative posts on what could have brought down this helicopter. It could have been any of dozens of reasons and it adds nothing to just guess one of them.

    +1 seems to be a few armchair accident investigators able to determine what has happened from speculation and phone apps


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Issue is people tend to want to find simple explanations and yet it is nearly always a confluence of factors.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    sjb25 wrote: »
    +1 seems to be a few armchair accident investigators able to determine what has happened from speculation and phone apps

    "Aircraft loss due to pilot disorientation during nighttime manoeuvres "

    Might be the future conclusion from my armchair .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,454 ✭✭✭Gadgetman496


    cosanostra wrote: »
    116 couldn't establish comms with 118 they requested shannon attempt they also couldn't reach them and got a commercial airliner to attempt which also failed

    I read this report too and wondered why no concern was raised for the safety of R118 when three sources failed to contact them? I thought at first it was simply that they distance was too far out but the commercial airline was well within reach I'd imagine if they were asked to assist.

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 10,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Discodog wrote: »
    I don't think that this can be discounted. No matter how much technical equipment is fitted to aircraft you can still have accidents, by a technical failure, human failure or a combination of both. The whole basis of investigation is that nothing is ruled out.
    The post by Irish Steve was aimed towards the speculative posts of "maybe they got mixed up and thought they were going to Blacksod at sea level rather than Blackrock at 300ft , hence why they flew into the island" type posts.

    Of course in any investigation by the relevant authorites all possible causes will be explored. However the keyboard investigators making light of the high levels of professionalism are not showing respect to the memory of the R116 and their SAR colleagues who continue to do their work off our coasts. The need to get answers is apparent but as with any aviation incident there is a period of waiting that can be quite long.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭elastico




    I am not going to speculate on the nature of the event that resulted in the end of the flight 116 into water,



    So why go ruling out 2 theories yourself then?:rolleyes:
    so the suggestions that have been made about accidentally flying into an obstacle or the water while searching for their intended landing point needs to be put into context, and discounted.




    The other thing that can be discounted is that this accident occurred due to a shortage of fuel,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭Muppet Man


    Juergen white on radio ireland sound byte on 9am news just said they "want to get investigators on to blackRock Island... an area of interest That they want to examine in person".

    QUoted word for word.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭Negative_G


    Calina wrote: »
    I am concerned that the Air Corps is short personnel for flying and air traffic control out of hours. Even outside the context of what happened to R116 this needs to be queried and addressed.

    The personnel issues in the Air Corps (and the Defence Forces as a whole) have been well documented over the last several years.

    It was well documented only several weeks ago that the Air Corps were unable to guarantee a service to paitents on the transplant list outside of working hours due to ATC/Pilot constraints.

    The general public has no interest in Defence matters and as a result, the politicians don't either.

    As with most things politically, you can make as much noise as possible but generally nothing will be done until something has happened. Reactive leadership at its finest.
    irishgeo wrote: »
    This is the same air corps that phoned up the minister in 2010 stating they could do it for far cheaper than CHC were being paid.

    Have you any source for this or is this just agenda based rhetoric?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,524 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    elastico wrote: »
    So why go ruling out 2 theories yourself then?:rolleyes:

    While I don't have a professional licence on helicopters, based on a long time involved with and around aircraft, I am willing to view some theories as unlikely on the basis that the aircraft on board equipment would have been working very hard to get the attention of the crew if they were flying into danger, and unless there was a massive technical problem with the fuel tanks, they were nowhere near their range or endurance limits.

    I also have to give more than a little credence to the massive experience and training of the crew, while any of us can make a mistake, the crew of 116 are not new to the job, or cavalier in their actions, their track record makes that very clear, so it is reasonable to try and damp down some of the speculation that has come from people who do not have enough information about the background and nature of this desperate tragedy.

    Yes, I could be wrong, and if that proves to be the case, I will be both deeply saddened and very surprised, and willing to admit it, for now, given what we do know about the crew and the aircraft type, there are some things that while statistically possible, there are realistically other scenarios that are more likely to be the major contributors to this event, and it is almost certain that the eventual outcome will be that a combination of events occurred that could not be predicted.

    Yes, I am trying to "steer" the thread, mainly to try and avoid some of the gutter press type speculation about this incident, and to try and ensure that a brave, professional and capable crew are not dishonoured by comments made as a result of a lack of background information that is relatively easy to find if a bit of searching is done.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    pretty big change from what the independent were saying yesterday to today.

    they were sure there was no mechanical failure and today, they are saying that something did go wrong with the equipment.

    what is clear so far looks like is the following -
    • Air Corps plane not available to fly so they covered instead.
    • They had fuel on board so they didnt run out of fuel.
    • They were arriving in Blacksod to refuel.
    • Visibility was "poor"
    • They flew out to sea and back in to descend - standard operational procedure.
    • They couldnt contact Rescue 118 and tried to use other means of doing so.
    • Last known location was just off blackrock island and they were operating at very high speed.
    • No mayday signal was received so what every happened, happened quick.
    • Search area and location of FDR beacon suggest crash site is close by to Blackrock island - so what ever did happen, happened there.
    • the above gives impression seems to been alot happening for the crew to deal with and if an electrical failure happened, it was sudden and no time to recover.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭elastico


    pretty big change from what the independent were saying yesterday to today.

    they were sure there was no mechanical failure and today, they are saying that something did go wrong with the equipment.

    what is clear so far looks like is the following -
    • Air Corps plane not available to fly so they covered instead.
    • They had fuel on board so they didnt run out of fuel.
    • They were arriving in Blacksod to refuel.
    • Visibility was "poor"
    • They flew out to sea and back in to descend - standard operational procedure.
    • They couldnt contact Rescue 118 and tried to use other means of doing so.
    • Last known location was just off blackrock island and they were operating at very high speed.
    • No mayday signal was received so what every happened, happened quick.
    • Search area and location of FDR beacon suggest crash site is close by to Blackrock island - so what ever did happen, happened there.
    • the above gives impression seems to been alot happening for the crew to deal with and if an electrical failure happened, it was sudden and no time to recover.

    I would pay no heed to what the indo says. Same article said there was no evidence of a collision with the lighthouse or the island.

    But this now appears to be a possibility as investigators seem to be heading back to the island now, and somebody on here yesterday claimed debris had been found in and around the lighthouse.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,044 ✭✭✭Storm 10


    Rescue 116 or any other helicopter should not have to provide top cover, its too dangerous which is why the Casa is the ideal platform for top cover. Like others I wonder what was the reason contact was not established with Rescue 118 that should have been a worry a lot of things will need to be looked at before a long range mission takes place again, I think there should be a limit on how far off the Coast a Rescue Helicopter should be allowed to go given its operating in one of the wildest oceans in the World. If the Casa had been in the air communication would never have been an issue. Also did anyone hear what condition the casualty had that required a medevac, if it was not too serious they should have got the ship to stop fishing and to come closer to the Irish Coast so no top cover would be required.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,676 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    elastico wrote:
    But this now appears to be a possibility as investigators seem to be heading back to the island now, and somebody on here yesterday claimed debris had been found in and around the lighthouse.


    Well if someone on here said it, it must be true...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47 milewidehead


    I agree absolutely with the statement to "pay no heed to what the Indo says". Or any of the other bottom-feeding gutter press tabloids. I'm sure the AAIB people have a fair idea of possible/probable causes at this stage, but being true professionals (unlike the journo 'hacks' ), will not idly speculate on the tragedy.

    Four brave professionals lost their lives trying to help others. RIP.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,708 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    Negative_G wrote: »
    The personnel issues in the Air Corps (and the Defence Forces as a whole) have been well documented over the last several years.

    It was well documented only several weeks ago that the Air Corps were unable to guarantee a service to paitents on the transplant list outside of working hours due to ATC/Pilot constraints.

    The general public has no interest in Defence matters and as a result, the politicians don't either.

    As with most things politically, you can make as much noise as possible but generally nothing will be done until something has happened. Reactive leadership at its finest.



    Have you any source for this or is this just agenda based rhetoric?
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/canadian-firm-has-helicopters-across-30-countries-35532674.html


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭Muppet Man


    Dial Hard wrote: »
    Well if someone on here said it, it must be true...

    It was said on Morning Ireland too, tbf.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102931315&postcount=524


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭elastico


    Dial Hard wrote: »
    Well if someone on here said it, it must be true...

    I believe Juergen white said it on the radio earlier.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,044 ✭✭✭Storm 10


    elastico wrote: »
    I believe Juergen white said it on the radio earlier.

    If my memory is correct he said this morning they need to get out to Blackrock today as there may be items of interest there, the interviewer then asked a rep from Irish Lights if the light on Blackrock was working at the time and he said it was and still is. Getting very close to finding out what happened to Rescue 116


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭Call me Al


    Dial Hard wrote: »
    Well if someone on here said it, it must be true...

    I've provided a link to an article where it's stated.
    It has also been reported on radio interviews.
    So its not just a fanciful invention by someone on here.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,882 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    Just to quash one of the rumours I've read a few times on here, the helipad on Blackrock is not large enough to accommodate the S92 rotors. There is an outcrop of rock nearby that limit the area significantly. The is a "patch of grass" nearby, but again, not suitable to land an aircraft of that size. This would be known by all the CG pilots.

    Blackrock-Mayo-2-_MainImage.jpg

    The Granuaile has slowed down for some reason (maybe weather), she will arrive some 12 hours after the initial ETA. As a lighthouse tender, the crew have intimate knowledge of this particular area as well as operating close-in to these kind of obstacles. She also has a small helideck for their own chopper, very useful to transfer personnel ashore etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,011 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    A critical factor will be where the debris is located on the Island. If it's well above the strand line then it suggests a collision.

    Whatever happened it appears to have been sudden & catastrophic. People need to remember that pilot error isn't any indication of incompetence of a slur.

    Humans make mistakes, even the best ones. We all rightly praise Sullenburger but the reality is that he was incredibly lucky as well as skilled.

    Sometimes a pilot feels that the instruments are wrong, when they are correct. Other times he can believe they are right when they are wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 902 ✭✭✭doctorchopper




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 886 ✭✭✭cosanostra


    Pretty sure Rescue 118 landed on Blackrock yesterday


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭elastico


    Discodog wrote: »
    A critical factor will be where the debris is located on the Island. If it's well above the strand line then it suggests a collision.

    Whatever happened it appears to have been sudden & catastrophic. People need to remember that pilot error isn't any indication of incompetence of a slur.

    Humans make mistakes, even the best ones. We all rightly praise Sullenburger but the reality is that he was incredibly lucky as well as skilled.

    Sometimes a pilot feels that the instruments are wrong, when they are correct. Other times he can believe they are right when they are wrong.

    Well put.

    I believe something like 80% of commercial air crashes are human error. It is very easy make mistakes, everybody does it, its human nature.

    At this point the circumstantial and anecdotal evidence points towards a sudden collision with the lighthouse and / or rock.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,234 ✭✭✭Ardennes1944


    Celtic Voyager is back in Galway almost.

    Granuaile is down to 8.5knots


This discussion has been closed.
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