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Child Item

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

sparrowcar

Contact lost just before 0100 off the west coast of Achill island on a rescue mission.
Search in progress including all available ships and Rescue 115.

Hopefully a positive outcome to this.

Please keep replies civil, and respectful of the crew and their families.

Please do not speculate as to any cause unless you have a factual basis to do so (and can back it up with information released to the public).

There will be zero tolerance for troublemakers or those that choose to ignore these guidelines.

There are other moderator messages in the thread, as a result of issues that have arisen, and we will be less forgiving going forward, due to the ongoing sensitivity of this incident

As per normal boards guidance, any comments on moderation are off topic and should be addressed directly to mods or cmods by PM. Any part of posts which are off topic in such a manner may be edited or removed, with possible sanction. Non news posts will be moved to the parallel R116 Non news and discussion thread

Should any new reports, updates or news stories come out, posts which can be boiled down to "I Told You So" or other triumphalism about previous commentary will result in significant punishment.

Any threadbans will carry over to any replacement thread should this approach 10,000 posts

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cosanostra

homerjay2005 wrote: »

The chain of events leading to this crash is starting to grow. As I said earlier, there's likely to be 5 or 6 actual causes of this once the final report comes out.

116 couldn't establish comms with 118 they requested shannon attempt they also couldn't reach them and got a commercial airliner to attempt which also failed

DOCARCH

cosanostra wrote: »

This video posted by the navy shows that the recovery process will be quite challenging https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1278630312219862&id=101764433239795

If there is no progress in recovery today, nothing will probably happen tomorrow as gale force winds are forecast.

cosanostra

DOCARCH wrote: »

If there is no progress in recovery today, nothing will probably happen tomorrow as gale force winds are forecast.

Granuaile will not be on scene til tomorrow morning celtic voyager has returned to Galway

irishgeo

Calina wrote: »

I am concerned that the Air Corps is short personnel for flying and air traffic control out of hours. Even outside the context of what happened to R116 this needs to be queried and addressed.

This is the same air corps that phoned up the minister in 2010 stating they could do it for far cheaper than CHC were being paid.

TallGlass

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I'm not comfortable with some of the speculative posts on what could have brought down this helicopter. It could have been any of dozens of reasons and it adds nothing to just guess one of them.

Henry, I get what your saying but you've to remember this is a discussion site after all. Alot of people on here would much rather read something here than a newspaper. I don't think anyone is saying 'x brought it down' more so it could have been this or that. People are in shock and the main question on everyone's mind I think is 'how could this have happened', the sooner it's known the better, what ever way the report finishes be it a fault with aircraft/policy/regulation/training we may be able to stop another accident from happening.

sjb25

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I'm not comfortable with some of the speculative posts on what could have brought down this helicopter. It could have been any of dozens of reasons and it adds nothing to just guess one of them.

+1 seems to be a few armchair accident investigators able to determine what has happened from speculation and phone apps

Calina

Issue is people tend to want to find simple explanations and yet it is nearly always a confluence of factors.

Means Of Escape

sjb25 wrote: »

+1 seems to be a few armchair accident investigators able to determine what has happened from speculation and phone apps

"Aircraft loss due to pilot disorientation during nighttime manoeuvres "

Might be the future conclusion from my armchair .

Gadgetman496

cosanostra wrote: »

116 couldn't establish comms with 118 they requested shannon attempt they also couldn't reach them and got a commercial airliner to attempt which also failed

I read this report too and wondered why no concern was raised for the safety of R118 when three sources failed to contact them? I thought at first it was simply that they distance was too far out but the commercial airline was well within reach I'd imagine if they were asked to assist.

Tenger

Discodog wrote: »

I don't think that this can be discounted. No matter how much technical equipment is fitted to aircraft you can still have accidents, by a technical failure, human failure or a combination of both. The whole basis of investigation is that nothing is ruled out.

The post by Irish Steve was aimed towards the speculative posts of "maybe they got mixed up and thought they were going to Blacksod at sea level rather than Blackrock at 300ft , hence why they flew into the island" type posts.

Of course in any investigation by the relevant authorites all possible causes will be explored. However the keyboard investigators making light of the high levels of professionalism are not showing respect to the memory of the R116 and their SAR colleagues who continue to do their work off our coasts. The need to get answers is apparent but as with any aviation incident there is a period of waiting that can be quite long.

elastico

Irish Steve wrote: »

I am not going to speculate on the nature of the event that resulted in the end of the flight 116 into water,

So why go ruling out 2 theories yourself then?:rolleyes:

Irish Steve wrote: »

so the suggestions that have been made about accidentally flying into an obstacle or the water while searching for their intended landing point needs to be put into context, and discounted.

Irish Steve wrote: »

The other thing that can be discounted is that this accident occurred due to a shortage of fuel,

Muppet Man

Juergen white on radio ireland sound byte on 9am news just said they "want to get investigators on to blackRock Island... an area of interest That they want to examine in person".

QUoted word for word.

Negative_G

Calina wrote: »

I am concerned that the Air Corps is short personnel for flying and air traffic control out of hours. Even outside the context of what happened to R116 this needs to be queried and addressed.

The personnel issues in the Air Corps (and the Defence Forces as a whole) have been well documented over the last several years.

It was well documented only several weeks ago that the Air Corps were unable to guarantee a service to paitents on the transplant list outside of working hours due to ATC/Pilot constraints.

The general public has no interest in Defence matters and as a result, the politicians don't either.

As with most things politically, you can make as much noise as possible but generally nothing will be done until something has happened. Reactive leadership at its finest.

irishgeo wrote: »

This is the same air corps that phoned up the minister in 2010 stating they could do it for far cheaper than CHC were being paid.

Have you any source for this or is this just agenda based rhetoric?

Irish Steve

elastico wrote: »

So why go ruling out 2 theories yourself then?:rolleyes:

While I don't have a professional licence on helicopters, based on a long time involved with and around aircraft, I am willing to view some theories as unlikely on the basis that the aircraft on board equipment would have been working very hard to get the attention of the crew if they were flying into danger, and unless there was a massive technical problem with the fuel tanks, they were nowhere near their range or endurance limits.

I also have to give more than a little credence to the massive experience and training of the crew, while any of us can make a mistake, the crew of 116 are not new to the job, or cavalier in their actions, their track record makes that very clear, so it is reasonable to try and damp down some of the speculation that has come from people who do not have enough information about the background and nature of this desperate tragedy.

Yes, I could be wrong, and if that proves to be the case, I will be both deeply saddened and very surprised, and willing to admit it, for now, given what we do know about the crew and the aircraft type, there are some things that while statistically possible, there are realistically other scenarios that are more likely to be the major contributors to this event, and it is almost certain that the eventual outcome will be that a combination of events occurred that could not be predicted.

Yes, I am trying to "steer" the thread, mainly to try and avoid some of the gutter press type speculation about this incident, and to try and ensure that a brave, professional and capable crew are not dishonoured by comments made as a result of a lack of background information that is relatively easy to find if a bit of searching is done.

homerjay2005

pretty big change from what the independent were saying yesterday to today.

they were sure there was no mechanical failure and today, they are saying that something did go wrong with the equipment.

what is clear so far looks like is the following -

Air Corps plane not available to fly so they covered instead.
They had fuel on board so they didnt run out of fuel.
They were arriving in Blacksod to refuel.
Visibility was "poor"
They flew out to sea and back in to descend - standard operational procedure.
They couldnt contact Rescue 118 and tried to use other means of doing so.
Last known location was just off blackrock island and they were operating at very high speed.
No mayday signal was received so what every happened, happened quick.
Search area and location of FDR beacon suggest crash site is close by to Blackrock island - so what ever did happen, happened there.
the above gives impression seems to been alot happening for the crew to deal with and if an electrical failure happened, it was sudden and no time to recover.

elastico

homerjay2005 wrote: »

pretty big change from what the independent were saying yesterday to today.

they were sure there was no mechanical failure and today, they are saying that something did go wrong with the equipment.

what is clear so far looks like is the following -
Air Corps plane not available to fly so they covered instead.

They had fuel on board so they didnt run out of fuel.

They were arriving in Blacksod to refuel.

Visibility was "poor"

They flew out to sea and back in to descend - standard operational procedure.

They couldnt contact Rescue 118 and tried to use other means of doing so.

Last known location was just off blackrock island and they were operating at very high speed.

No mayday signal was received so what every happened, happened quick.

Search area and location of FDR beacon suggest crash site is close by to Blackrock island - so what ever did happen, happened there.

the above gives impression seems to been alot happening for the crew to deal with and if an electrical failure happened, it was sudden and no time to recover.

I would pay no heed to what the indo says. Same article said there was no evidence of a collision with the lighthouse or the island.

But this now appears to be a possibility as investigators seem to be heading back to the island now, and somebody on here yesterday claimed debris had been found in and around the lighthouse.

Storm 10

Rescue 116 or any other helicopter should not have to provide top cover, its too dangerous which is why the Casa is the ideal platform for top cover. Like others I wonder what was the reason contact was not established with Rescue 118 that should have been a worry a lot of things will need to be looked at before a long range mission takes place again, I think there should be a limit on how far off the Coast a Rescue Helicopter should be allowed to go given its operating in one of the wildest oceans in the World. If the Casa had been in the air communication would never have been an issue. Also did anyone hear what condition the casualty had that required a medevac, if it was not too serious they should have got the ship to stop fishing and to come closer to the Irish Coast so no top cover would be required.

Dial Hard

elastico wrote:

But this now appears to be a possibility as investigators seem to be heading back to the island now, and somebody on here yesterday claimed debris had been found in and around the lighthouse.

Well if someone on here said it, it must be true...

milewidehead

I agree absolutely with the statement to "pay no heed to what the Indo says". Or any of the other bottom-feeding gutter press tabloids. I'm sure the AAIB people have a fair idea of possible/probable causes at this stage, but being true professionals (unlike the journo 'hacks' ), will not idly speculate on the tragedy.

Four brave professionals lost their lives trying to help others. RIP.

irishgeo

Negative_G wrote: »

The personnel issues in the Air Corps (and the Defence Forces as a whole) have been well documented over the last several years.

It was well documented only several weeks ago that the Air Corps were unable to guarantee a service to paitents on the transplant list outside of working hours due to ATC/Pilot constraints.

The general public has no interest in Defence matters and as a result, the politicians don't either.

As with most things politically, you can make as much noise as possible but generally nothing will be done until something has happened. Reactive leadership at its finest.

Have you any source for this or is this just agenda based rhetoric?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/canadian-firm-has-helicopters-across-30-countries-35532674.html

Muppet Man

Dial Hard wrote: »

Well if someone on here said it, it must be true...

It was said on Morning Ireland too, tbf.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102931315&postcount=524

elastico

Dial Hard wrote: »

Well if someone on here said it, it must be true...

I believe Juergen white said it on the radio earlier.

Storm 10

elastico wrote: »

I believe Juergen white said it on the radio earlier.

If my memory is correct he said this morning they need to get out to Blackrock today as there may be items of interest there, the interviewer then asked a rep from Irish Lights if the light on Blackrock was working at the time and he said it was and still is. Getting very close to finding out what happened to Rescue 116

Call me Al

Dial Hard wrote: »

Well if someone on here said it, it must be true...

I've provided a link to an article where it's stated.
It has also been reported on radio interviews.
So its not just a fanciful invention by someone on here.

Tabnabs

Just to quash one of the rumours I've read a few times on here, the helipad on Blackrock is not large enough to accommodate the S92 rotors. There is an outcrop of rock nearby that limit the area significantly. The is a "patch of grass" nearby, but again, not suitable to land an aircraft of that size. This would be known by all the CG pilots.

The Granuaile has slowed down for some reason (maybe weather), she will arrive some 12 hours after the initial ETA. As a lighthouse tender, the crew have intimate knowledge of this particular area as well as operating close-in to these kind of obstacles. She also has a small helideck for their own chopper, very useful to transfer personnel ashore etc.

Discodog

A critical factor will be where the debris is located on the Island. If it's well above the strand line then it suggests a collision.

Whatever happened it appears to have been sudden & catastrophic. People need to remember that pilot error isn't any indication of incompetence of a slur.

Humans make mistakes, even the best ones. We all rightly praise Sullenburger but the reality is that he was incredibly lucky as well as skilled.

Sometimes a pilot feels that the instruments are wrong, when they are correct. Other times he can believe they are right when they are wrong.

doctorchopper

Interesting info here http://www.newstalk.com/Defence-Forces-say-staff-shortage-meant-missing-Rescue-116-was-sent-on-mission

cosanostra

Pretty sure Rescue 118 landed on Blackrock yesterday

elastico

Discodog wrote: »

A critical factor will be where the debris is located on the Island. If it's well above the strand line then it suggests a collision.

Whatever happened it appears to have been sudden & catastrophic. People need to remember that pilot error isn't any indication of incompetence of a slur.

Humans make mistakes, even the best ones. We all rightly praise Sullenburger but the reality is that he was incredibly lucky as well as skilled.

Sometimes a pilot feels that the instruments are wrong, when they are correct. Other times he can believe they are right when they are wrong.

Well put.

I believe something like 80% of commercial air crashes are human error. It is very easy make mistakes, everybody does it, its human nature.

At this point the circumstantial and anecdotal evidence points towards a sudden collision with the lighthouse and / or rock.

Ardennes1944

Celtic Voyager is back in Galway almost.

Granuaile is down to 8.5knots