Does anyone know what the ethnic Traveller Status statement actually means?

Means Of Escape · 08-03-2017 09:22AM

end of the road wrote: »

you can't be sick of hearing genuine reasons why traveler children don't attend education as if the reasons weren't valid they would be attending education.

if the supports barely exist, then barely anyone will be in a position to avail of them. if they widely exist, more people will avail. how many would avail of said supports for education from the traveling community if they were widely availible is unknown, but when they are hugely cut then very few are going to be in a position to avail of them.

yeah. yeah. yeah. none of those change the fact that we were in breech of certain obligations. whataboutery doesn't change the reality

the supports were dealing with the children of parents who didn't engage with the system. until the supports were hugely cut, they were doing what you wanted.

Deny, demand , deflect . Repeat
Deny, demand ,deflect . Repeat

Annasopra · 08-03-2017 09:33AM

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Has the possibility occurred to you, and I am being perfectly serious here, that it is the spectre of state supports and intervention which has produced the present situation?

Now you can make a perfectly reasonable argument that if we want more travellers to go further in education we need to provide additional financial supports. But, this is within the context of a demographic that is apparently utterly dependent on state support (I refer here to the unemployment rates, estimated at somewhere between 75-85%) already, now being lined up for yet further state subsidy. Maybe it's time to admit the reality that simply throwing money at this problem (to greater or lesser degrees) will not solve it, maybe creating an apparently permanently dependent underclass is a poor decision.

We need to actually try and extending some equity to the situation - if you want to live in a caravan in a field - buy/rent the field, if you're going to neglect the education of your children - don't be surprised if the state finds parents willing to fulfil that duty.

There is no reason for anyone to be disbarred from living like a Traveller, but there is definitely no reason for it to be the subject of some state subsidy either. If we are doing that, I'd like to claim an allowance for rent boys and insist on gay bars being provided in every small town.

This is a perfect of what I was talking about earlier.

Moaning about travellers poor educational outcomes and high unemployment and then moaning when there are state supports to try and address those problems.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 08-03-2017 10:07AM

Graces7 wrote: »

sad that education officials seem to want to press middle class values on everyone.

A fairly modern phenomenon.

My generation mostly left school at 14 to work. Those who wanted then went to the excellent nightschool classes . leaving school early is fine.

Are we on the same planet? Middle class values? Do you mean children going to primary school? That's what we were talking about. Your reply makes no sense. It is quite clear that they do not attend school as they should. You seem to be content that they remain illiterate if they want.
Nobody said a thing about leaving school early. This was about NOT attending school in the first place.
All this 'in my day' helps nobody and back in our day was not the most pleasant place for many people to be.

elefant · 08-03-2017 10:16AM

Graces7 wrote: »

sad that education officials seem to want to press middle class values on everyone.

A fairly modern phenomenon.

My generation mostly left school at 14 to work. Those who wanted then went to the excellent nightschool classes . leaving school early is fine.

We've gone through the looking glass, people.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 08-03-2017 10:19AM

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Not an essential. we grew up washing ourselves. In bowls I mean.

Things have moved on. Just because we washed in a bowl did not mean we were clean. Basic hygiene requires us to wash properly. And today, that means running hot and cold water.

jimgoose · 08-03-2017 11:10AM

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Not an essential. we grew up washing ourselves. In bowls I mean.

It's not so much to do with what is "essential" in the strict sense of the word as what is deemed standard, or normal, by society as a whole in this place and time. I'm not that much more than half your age, I believe, and I grew up cutting and hauling turf and taking a chainsaw to stoating great trees in order to keep warm in Winter. Now I have a little robot that takes care of that automatically via mains gas. My little suburban swamp is modest enough, I'm no Richard Branson I can assure you. :pac:

jimgoose · 08-03-2017 11:11AM

Graces7 wrote: »

...My generation mostly left school at 14 to work. Those who wanted then went to the excellent nightschool classes . leaving school early is fine.

Leaving school at 14 in this day-and-age in Western Europe is only "fine" if your career aspirations consist mainly of sitting in a cage and flinging your own dung at Japanese tourists.

jimgoose · 08-03-2017 11:28AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Middle class values?

Hardly. It's not unusual in "working-class" households for children to have plenty of food and adequate clothing, access to full shower facilities, a quiet area to perform schoolwork, rigorous school attendance usually up to Leaving Cert, and at least one parent, usually a hard-working mother/bean an tí, to hold down a job as well as looking after everyone.

end of the road · 08-03-2017 12:29PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Deny, demand , deflect . Repeat
Deny, demand ,deflect . Repeat

nope. i put forward the reality and you aren't able to argue against it.

Means Of Escape · 08-03-2017 12:49PM

end of the road wrote: »

nope. i put forward the reality and you aren't able to argue against it.

Denial of rights based on accommodation issues as stated by you

Utter tripe to base anything on
Educate and earn and improve your own lot

Hand outs and entitlements.
You're a master of as you put it whataboutery

08-03-2017 01:04PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Denial of rights based on accommodation issues as stated by you

Utter tripe to base anything on
Educate and earn and improve your own lot

Hand outs and entitlements.
You're a master of as you put it whataboutery

I don't understand this post. Is it a poem? I just can't follow lines like "Utter tripe to base anything on/Educate and earn and improve your own lot".

end of the road · 08-03-2017 01:12PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Denial of rights based on accommodation issues as stated by you

Utter tripe to base anything on
Educate and earn and improve your own lot

Hand outs and entitlements.
You're a master of as you put it whataboutery

we were in breech of certain obligations when it comes to travelers. that is a fact. all based on actual evidence held and put forward by people who know the realities. if you don't like it then you should support efforts to insure we aren't in breech any longer.

Means Of Escape · 08-03-2017 02:03PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't understand this post. Is it a poem? I just can't follow lines like "Utter tripe to base anything on/Educate and earn and improve your own lot".

Ok to simplify even further
Class of accommodation is not a denial of human basic rights. The travellers need to be accountable for their own actions and rather than demand better accommodation should be more proactive in improving their own lot which can be done through education which as a human right is provided .
Whataboutthatery

Means Of Escape · 08-03-2017 02:05PM

end of the road wrote: »

we were in breech of certain obligations when it comes to travelers. that is a fact. all based on actual evidence held and put forward by people who know the realities. if you don't like it then you should support efforts to insure we aren't in breech any longer.

obligations dealing with accommodation or are there more ?

Annasopra · 08-03-2017 02:06PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Ok to simplify even further
Class of accommodation is not a denial of human basic rights. The travellers need to be accountable for their own actions and rather than demand better accommodation should be more proactive in improving their own lot which can be done through education which as a human right is provided .
Whataboutthatery

Sorry what are you on about?

The state was found to be breaching travellers human rights

Irish Praetorian · 08-03-2017 02:10PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

This is a perfect of what I was talking about earlier.

Moaning about travellers poor educational outcomes and high unemployment and then moaning when there are state supports to try and address those problems.

Forgive me but you appear to be missing my point, you're making the argument that we need more supports to change those outcomes, my argument is that it is those very supports (combined with other policies) which have produced those outcomes. It might be appealing to think that with a certain amount of state largess we can simply bribe people out of their failures, but if that has not worked yet why would it begin to work now?

Permabear · 08-03-2017 02:30PM

This post has been deleted.

Glenster · 08-03-2017 02:44PM

50 pages in, I think its clear that the answer to OPs question is "No"

joe40 · 08-03-2017 04:15PM

Glenster wrote: »

50 pages in, I think its clear that the answer to OPs question is "No"

I think that is part of the problem. What exactly does "Ethnic status" mean. What measures are the traveller community and their leaders willing to take to improve their situation, as a result of this ruling. Or is it a means to get more state "support"

Means Of Escape · 08-03-2017 05:30PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Sorry what are you on about?

The state was found to be breaching travellers human rights

Human rights on the basis of provision of a certain standard of accommodation ?

huddledDuke12 · 13-03-2017 01:31AM

Graces7 wrote: »

Interesting that your post actually reinforces the idea of clones and homogeneity

So, the expectation of honesty coupled with the earning of respect within society will make people clones or homogeneous?

The workforce is a diverse pool of talent ranging from doctors to actors, computer programmers to marketing executives and farmers to shop owners. This is hardly a world of clones and homogeneity.

Graces7 wrote: »

disregards the damage discrimination for centuries has done.

Sometimes discrimination can be justified where a person or group of people expect the same level of respect and equality all while giving nothing in return. So, for example, if a person or group of people have no intention of being self-sufficient or leading a financially sustainable lifestyle then, how can they expect others to look out for them?

PLEASE NOTE: The only people I make exceptions for in the above circumstances are people suffering with moderate to severe mental, physical or both types of disabilities. In this case, such afflictions can immediately limit their independence let alone, career prospects. So, they will be given state funding to make their lives bearable.

On the other hand, it is not unreasonable to expect a perfectly able bodied person to earn their keep in society. Again, I will re-iterate that this also applies to members of the settled community as well due to the regular occurrence of welfare fraud.

Graces7 wrote: »

Be like me OR ELSE! Stepford wife syndrome. and so patronising!

As for this statement. I would say it is more a case of "Be honest and earn my respect OR ELSE". Now, as I've said, we all have minor acts of dishonesty and many times daily, I might add. However, these are often on a one to one basis where we might avoid conflicts. Nevertheless, acts such as larceny, defrauding society and abusing government benefits is deplorable. As such, patronizing is well justified. If anything, patronizing is getting off light as most people who engage in large scale dishonesty leave themselves open to penalties.

end of the road · 13-03-2017 02:39AM

huddledDuke12 wrote: »

Sometimes discrimination can be justified where a person or group of people expect the same level of respect and equality all while giving nothing in return. So, for example, if a person or group of people have no intention of being self-sufficient or leading a financially sustainable lifestyle then, how can they expect others to look out for them?

discrimination cannot be justified. excuses, excuses, i'm afraid, don't wash.

13-03-2017 08:01AM

end of the road wrote: »

discrimination cannot be justified. excuses, excuses, i'm afraid.

I agree that it's wrong to discriminate. However I think the bad reputation of the Travelling community didn't just come from nowhere either.

end of the road wrote: »

don't wash

No need for that, I'm sure they do

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 02:15PM

end of the road wrote: »

discrimination cannot be justified. excuses, excuses, i'm afraid, don't wash.

All the anti-posts focus on how YOU want to live. Clearly the travellers' chosen lifestyle is very different.

You would hate living as they would hate living as you do .

That leads to discrimination.

Should not. It is choice. Freedom of choice.

When I was a teacher, one of my class of 4th years wanted to leave school at the minimum age. The head asked me to have a chat with her to ask why and try to get her to stay on. Take her "O" levels ( UK)

She explained very clearly that she had no interest in any more education as she did not need it. That she was working with horses and had been promised a job.

It was right for her.

One of my lls has four grown sons all over-educated for their life, all unemployed. He could not even get one to help him on the farm.

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 02:24PM

huddledDuke12 wrote: »

So, the expectation of honesty coupled with the earning of respect within society will make people clones or homogeneous?

Yes when applied as you apply it. Definitely as you make demands that not all can meet or want to meet to fit in with YOUR ideas,

as computer programmers to marketing executives and farmers to shop owners. This is hardly a world of clones and homogeneity.

And street cleaners and binmen?

Sometimes discrimination can be justified where a person or group of people expect the same level of respect and equality all while giving nothing in return. So, for example, if a person or group of people have no intention of being self-sufficient or leading a financially sustainable lifestyle then, how can they expect others to look out for them?

Is that what they do? Really? You sure they want your respect?

PLEASE NOTE: The only people I make exceptions for in the above circumstances are people suffering with moderate to severe mental, physical or both types of disabilities. In this case, such afflictions can immediately limit their independence let alone, career prospects. So, they will be given state funding to make their lives bearable.

On the other hand, it is not unreasonable to expect a perfectly able bodied person to earn their keep in society. Again, I will re-iterate that this also applies to members of the settled community as well due to the regular occurrence of welfare fraud.

As for this statement. I would say it is more a case of "Be honest and earn my respect OR ELSE". Now, as I've said, we all have minor acts of dishonesty and many times daily, I might add. However, these are often on a one to one basis where we might avoid conflicts. Nevertheless, acts such as larceny, defrauding society and abusing government benefits is deplorable. As such, patronizing is well justified. If anything, patronizing is getting off light as most people who engage in large scale dishonesty leave themselves open to penalties.

Do not know how to interleave properly so please bear with me? Thank you

I have never had the negative experiences of travellers that you say exist. I have seen them working hard, and had kindnesses from them.
So I am not going to agree with you or accuse as you are doing.

And clones yes. Act as we do and ??? what will that bring them?

JamboMac · 13-03-2017 02:35PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Do not know how to interleave properly so please bear with me? Thank you

I have never had the negative experiences of travellers that you say exist. I have seen them working hard, and had kindnesses from them.
So I am not going to agree with you or accuse as you are doing.

And clones yes. Act as we do and ??? what will that bring them?

So clones?

Well I'd like to not work and for you to pay for the lifestyle I've become accustomed too. Is that fair?

Being a benefit to society, bloody clones.

Permabear · 13-03-2017 02:39PM

This post has been deleted.

Graces7 · 13-03-2017 04:03PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Ah this was the UK when the leaving age was still 14, so there was not that
issue.

I hear you re the traveller children but if they have literacy and numeracy?

I hear you but as I keep saying, I have not had the same experiences that you have had so I am not judging anyone.

They are different and that is what seems unacceptable. By your standards.

That is OK. You hold your views and I will hold mine on this without judging by any standards and knowing how centuries of being discriminated against can and does create problems in anyone .

Bless you! And over and out; getting rss here!

Permabear · 13-03-2017 05:12PM

This post has been deleted.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 13-03-2017 05:20PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Ah this was the UK when the leaving age was still 14, so there was not that
issue.

I hear you re the traveller children but if they have literacy and numeracy?

I hear you but as I keep saying, I have not had the same experiences that you have had so I am not judging anyone.

They are different and that is what seems unacceptable. By your standards.

That is OK. You hold your views and I will hold mine on this without judging by any standards and knowing how centuries of being discriminated against can and does create problems in anyone .

Bless you! And over and out; getting rss here!

The age has been 16 in England since 1972, and was 15 from 1944 to 1972.

Nobody here seems to have any problem with Travellers being different. What there is a problem with is the illegality that appears to be rife among them.

As for literacy and numeracy, even if that is a sufficient measure, the lack of it among travellers is well documented. Nobody leaving school, particularly with a bad attendance record, at 14 would have sufficient attainment.

Does anyone know what the ethnic Traveller Status statement actually means?

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