Does anyone know what the ethnic Traveller Status statement actually means?

Annasopra

eviltwin wrote: »

Are you really suggesting cuts to services are the reason travellers don't complete education? Really??

Nothing to do with a lack of value placed on education, the lack of education of parents who can't support their kids learning, the rampant social issues, women's role being seen as in the home etc?

None of that has a role, it's all the state's fault..

Yes I am - state cuts do actually have a serious effect.

How exactly do you think the lack of value in education will be tackled with no support? How exactly do you think parents with low levels of education will support educational attainments in their families with no support?

You cant just expect a chicken with no egg

Means Of Escape

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Because traveller non completion of education was disproportionately higher to start with

Again another example of the farce of people bemoaning low education completion rates and attacking supports to tackle those problems.

again it comes down to expectations and example
Regardless of what one puts in place the schools the children are going to leave school early to earn money.
This is the major reason for early school leaving among the traveller community
Don't cod yourself to think otherwise

It's about short term rewards

Annasopra

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Accommodation issues

That was what the case was about. Yes.

jackofalltrades

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Because traveller non completion of education was disproportionately higher to start with

Because their parents don't value education.

Again another example of the farce of people bemoaning low education completion rates and attacking supports to tackle those problems.

And since when am I "attacking" these supports?

Annasopra

Means Of Escape wrote: »

again it comes down to expectations and example
Regardless of what one puts in place the schools the children are going to leave school early to earn money.
This is the major reason for early school leaving among the traveller community
Don't cod yourself to think otherwise

It's about short term rewards

Again this comes down to the farce that people are complaining there is a problem and complaining when the state intervenes to assist in addressing the problem.

eviltwin

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

How exactly do you think the lack of value in education will be tackled with no support? How exactly do you think parents with low levels of education will support educational attainments in their families with no support?

You cant just expect a chicken with no egg

By all means give every support to families who actually engage with the system. I'm all for giving vulnerable kids every chance to do well in school but it cant all be on one side. I have a special needs child, he gets great support in school, the resource teachers are amazing but they can't do it alone. I have to reinforce everything here at home. That's the bit you seem to be ignoring. The parents are primarily educators, there has to be on going learning when the child comes home and during holidays. And if the parents can't because they lack education of their own there are supports for them. Those who refuse to work with the system should be punished for it.

Annasopra

eviltwin wrote: »

By all means give every support to families who actually engage with the system. I'm all for giving vulnerable kids every chance to do well in school but it cant all be on one side. I have a special needs child, he gets great support in school, the resource teachers are amazing but they can't do it alone. I have to reinforce everything here at home. That's the bit you seem to be ignoring. The parents are primarily educators, there has to be on going learning when the child comes home and during holidays. And if the parents can't because they lack education of their own there are supports for them. Those who refuse to work with the system should be punished for it.

I'm not ignoring any of that. I am saying the supports need to be in place. Thats all.

Means Of Escape

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

That was what the case was about. Yes.

Class of accommodation

Not food , clean water , access to health or education which to me surpass accommodation as a basic human needs and rights

Farcical

Roger Hassenforder

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

You cant just expect a chicken with no egg

if we're paraphrasing
you can entice a horse to water but you cant make him drink

eviltwin

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'm not ignoring any of that. I am saying the supports need to be in place. Thats all.

I completely agree. But supports aren't worth much if people won't use them or think it's a replacement for their own role.

Professor Moriarty

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'm not ignoring any of that. I am saying the supports need to be in place. Thats all.

I know a primary teacher who has worked for many years in a disadvantaged area that has both settled people and travellers. She bemoans the lack of interest from the settled people in the area when it comes to education but says that travellers are far worse. She says they get far more supports but have no respect for anything they receive, the teachers, the rules or the school.

I know this is anecdotal but it comes from her direct experience over many years.

Means Of Escape

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Again this comes down to the farce that people are complaining there is a problem and complaining when the state intervenes to assist in addressing the problem.

Who is complaining about support for children with needs in school.? Quite the opposite
People complain when the state intervenes and sinks millions into accommodation issues when they are already spending millions on providing the basic human needs and rights to the community.
Then to be told that the accommodation isn't satisfactory. Where does the drain end without contribution from themselves to better their accommodation situation
We all have to do it .
They are not living in tents in a forest .

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I know a primary teacher who has worked for many years in a disadvantaged area that has both settled people and travellers. She bemoans the lack of interest from the settled people in the area when it comes to education but says that travellers are far worse. She says they get far more supports but have no respect for anything they receive, the teachers, the rules or the school.

I know this is anecdotal but it comes from her direct experience over many years.

I have several immediate family members who are teachers, some principals, and they all say the same.

Professor Moriarty

Edith Damp Trunk wrote: »

I have several immediate family members who are teachers, some principals, and they all say the same.

Likewise. It doesn't mean that support should be withdrawn, in my opinion, but it isn't working as it stands according to teachers. I don't know what the answer is and neither do the teachers that I know. At this stage, they just accept that travellers operate according to their own rules and they don't get frustrated trying to educate people who plainly don't want education.

end of the road

eviltwin wrote: »

No it's not daft. There should be help provided yes but it's not the responsibility of the state to make sure a traveller child attends school, if they are not being sent in or discouraged from continuing then we have to look at the primary carer as to why that is. Support will only go so far. I'm sick and tired of hearing excuse after excuse about why travellers don't access education, most are completely overlooking parental inertia.

you can't be sick of hearing genuine reasons why traveler children don't attend education as if the reasons weren't valid they would be attending education.

eviltwin wrote: »

Are you really suggesting cuts to services are the reason travellers don't complete education? Really??

Nothing to do with a lack of value placed on education, the lack of education of parents who can't support their kids learning, the rampant social issues, women's role being seen as in the home etc?

None of that has a role, it's all the state's fault..

if the supports barely exist, then barely anyone will be in a position to avail of them. if they widely exist, more people will avail. how many would avail of said supports for education from the traveling community if they were widely availible is unknown, but when they are hugely cut then very few are going to be in a position to avail of them.

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Accommodation issues
Nothing about access to education
Provisions in education
Medical services
Ability to move freely in the country

One should remember that a law signed into law by our former president not to allow the travelling community to set up a camp anywhere they liked which was the case up to that point with little powers in place to remove them
Halting sites have been provided one to the time of 5 million euros recently and there was a refusal to move into it .....
Goes back to the pointed issue of a sense of entitlement whereby others should pay for what is classed as adequate facilities yet the dwellers will make zero contribution to the said site financially
We can't even start at the Cust of clean up faces by councils at areas where they do decide to "settle " temporarily or Kilkee co Clare public car park a number of years back that restricted other members of the public from using the car park
We can all cry for equality and respect and yet very little evidence is presented to show that the travelling community has any interest in integrating into society.
We on the other hand are expected to respect and show the hands of friendship to a group who break laws with impunity , pride themselves in bare knuckle fighting , cause mini riots during family feuds and won't avail of an education system that has provisions in place for those in need of both educational and financial help .
Where does the word accountability come into this subject ?

yeah. yeah. yeah. none of those change the fact that we were in breech of certain obligations. whataboutery doesn't change the reality

eviltwin wrote: »

By all means give every support to families who actually engage with the system. I'm all for giving vulnerable kids every chance to do well in school but it cant all be on one side. I have a special needs child, he gets great support in school, the resource teachers are amazing but they can't do it alone. I have to reinforce everything here at home. That's the bit you seem to be ignoring. The parents are primarily educators, there has to be on going learning when the child comes home and during holidays. And if the parents can't because they lack education of their own there are supports for them. Those who refuse to work with the system should be punished for it.

the supports were dealing with the children of parents who didn't engage with the system. until the supports were hugely cut, they were doing what you wanted.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Sole responsibility isn't!!!!!

On the one hand you have people giving out travellers dont complete education - on the the other you have supports for traveller education completion being slashed and these cuts being dismissed - absolute farce

I have a child and I am solely responsible to make sure she goes to school and that is the same with any parent imo. If travellers choose to not put much value into education then until that changes there will be issues with the community.

Why is it always settled peoples job to try and fix the travellers issues? Like John Connor blaming settled people for that fire, blaming us for all their problems They choose to live a lifestyle that is outdated and expect tax payers to fund it.

Let travellers do what they want as long as they aren't breaking the law, they are educating their kids and their kids are in suitable housing and a caravan in Ireland is not suitable for kids to grow up in caravans, they are damp and cold. If they refuse to live with their kids in suitable housing, then put their kids into care until they start making the right decisions for their kids.

Irish Praetorian

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'm not ignoring any of that. I am saying the supports need to be in place. Thats all.

Has the possibility occurred to you, and I am being perfectly serious here, that it is the spectre of state supports and intervention which has produced the present situation?

Now you can make a perfectly reasonable argument that if we want more travellers to go further in education we need to provide additional financial supports. But, this is within the context of a demographic that is apparently utterly dependent on state support (I refer here to the unemployment rates, estimated at somewhere between 75-85%) already, now being lined up for yet further state subsidy. Maybe it's time to admit the reality that simply throwing money at this problem (to greater or lesser degrees) will not solve it, maybe creating an apparently permanently dependent underclass is a poor decision.

We need to actually try and extending some equity to the situation - if you want to live in a caravan in a field - buy/rent the field, if you're going to neglect the education of your children - don't be surprised if the state finds parents willing to fulfil that duty.

There is no reason for anyone to be disbarred from living like a Traveller, but there is definitely no reason for it to be the subject of some state subsidy either. If we are doing that, I'd like to claim an allowance for rent boys and insist on gay bars being provided in every small town.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a child and I am solely responsible to make sure she goes to school and that is the same with any parent imo. If travellers choose to not put much value into education then until that changes there will be issues with the community.

Why is it always settled peoples job to try and fix the travellers issues? Like John Connor blaming settled people for that fire, blaming us for all their problems They choose to live a lifestyle that is outdated and expect tax payers to fund it.

Let travellers do what they want as long as they aren't breaking the law, they are educating their kids and their kids are in suitable housing and a caravan in Ireland is not suitable for kids to grow up in caravans, they are damp and cold. If they refuse to live with their kids in suitable housing, then put their kids into care until they start making the right decisions for their kids.

that would be against the rights of the children to be with their parents, and to not be in a system which has been proven to fail in it's objectives.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

that would be against the rights of the children to be with their parents, and to not be in a system which has been proven to fail in it's objectives.

I don't know much about how it works but surely if children are living in unfit environments social carers can step in and take the kids until a proper environment is there for the kids?

A caravan is not a good place for a kid, there is a reason that they have a much higher rate of babies dying than the normal population.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know much about how it works but surely if children are living in unfit environments social carers can step in and take the kids until a proper environment is there for the kids?

they can but the care system has been proven to fail children and it cannot be trusted.

Deleted User wrote: »

A caravan is not a good place for a kid, there is a reason that they have a much higher rate of babies dying than the normal population.

i would agree but that is how some of them live and it's not illegal. there are people who are living and who have lived in mobile homes across ireland over the years.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

they can but the care system has been proven to fail children and it cannot be trusted.



i would agree but that is how some of them live and it's not illegal. there are people who are living and who have lived in mobile homes across ireland over the years.

Lots of stuff has happened in this country doesn't make it right. If people want to live in a mobile home on the side of the road then fair enough, but don't bring kids into that life. If you have kids you owe it to your kids to have a good home/house and to give them stability with schooling/education/access to a shower.

Graces7

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Likewise. It doesn't mean that support should be withdrawn, in my opinion, but it isn't working as it stands according to teachers. I don't know what the answer is and neither do the teachers that I know. At this stage, they just accept that travellers operate according to their own rules and they don't get frustrated trying to educate people who plainly don't want education.

sad that education officials seem to want to press middle class values on everyone.

A fairly modern phenomenon.

My generation mostly left school at 14 to work. Those who wanted then went to the excellent nightschool classes . leaving school early is fine.

Graces7

eviltwin wrote: »

Are you really suggesting cuts to services are the reason travellers don't complete education? Really??

Nothing to do with a lack of value placed on education, the lack of education of parents who can't support their kids learning, the rampant social issues, women's role being seen as in the home etc?

None of that has a role, it's all the state's fault..

Middle class values?

Graces7

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Accommodation issues
Nothing about access to education
Provisions in education
Medical services
Ability to move freely in the country

One should remember that a law signed into law by our former president not to allow the travelling community to set up a camp anywhere they liked which was the case up to that point with little powers in place to remove them
Halting sites have been provided one to the time of 5 million euros recently and there was a refusal to move into it .....
Goes back to the pointed issue of a sense of entitlement whereby others should pay for what is classed as adequate facilities yet the dwellers will make zero contribution to the said site financially
We can't even start at the Cust of clean up faces by councils at areas where they do decide to "settle " temporarily or Kilkee co Clare public car park a number of years back that restricted other members of the public from using the car park
We can all cry for equality and respect and yet very little evidence is presented to show that the travelling community has any interest in integrating into society.
We on the other hand are expected to respect and show the hands of friendship to a group who break laws with impunity , pride themselves in bare knuckle fighting , cause mini riots during family feuds and won't avail of an education system that has provisions in place for those in need of both educational and financial help .
Where does the word accountability come into this subject ?

Have you visited any big council estates ie non travellers recently? Hardly salubrious... worse then anything you describe here

oh and family feuds? widespread among settled folk..

Graces7

Deleted User wrote: »

I have a child and I am solely responsible to make sure she goes to school and that is the same with any parent imo. If travellers choose to not put much value into education then until that changes there will be issues with the community.

Why is it always settled peoples job to try and fix the travellers issues? Like John Connor blaming settled people for that fire, blaming us for all their problems They choose to live a lifestyle that is outdated and expect tax payers to fund it.

Let travellers do what they want as long as they aren't breaking the law, they are educating their kids and their kids are in suitable housing and a caravan in Ireland is not suitable for kids to grow up in caravans, they are damp and cold. If they refuse to live with their kids in suitable housing, then put their kids into care until they start making the right decisions for their kids.

would rather live in a good caravan than many council properties or private rentals. Far rather. damp and cold is not in it! actually caravans are easy to heat and air.

Graces7

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know much about how it works but surely if children are living in unfit environments social carers can step in and take the kids until a proper environment is there for the kids?

A caravan is not a good place for a kid, there is a reason that they have a much higher rate of babies dying than the normal population.

stats please?

We do have residential caravans here too.

tomwaterford

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't know much about how it works but surely if children are living in unfit environments social carers can step in and take the kids until a proper environment is there for the kids?

A caravan is not a good place for a kid, there is a reason that they have a much higher rate of babies dying than the normal population.

TBF....the state hasn't a great record on the people it takes into care...

Only take a look at what's coming out about what went down in tuam??

Graces7

Deleted User wrote: »

Lots of stuff has happened in this country doesn't make it right. If people want to live in a mobile home on the side of the road then fair enough, but don't bring kids into that life. If you have kids you owe it to your kids to have a good home/house and to give them stability with schooling/education/access to a shower.

Not an essential. we grew up washing ourselves. In bowls I mean.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know much about how it works but surely if children are living in unfit environments social carers can step in and take the kids until a proper environment is there for the kids?

A caravan is not a good place for a kid, there is a reason that they have a much higher rate of babies dying than the normal population.

Good Lord.

It's actually a little scary to think that raising the shadow of "strip them of their kids" still exists in Ireland. It's Victorian.

We should do everything possible to keep the family unit together and only seek to put children into care as a last resort, not as some catch all "they live in caravans, put them into care" or as a response to an absence of showers.

Roger Hassenforder

Graces7 wrote: »

sad that education officials seem to want to press middle class values on everyone.

A fairly modern phenomenon.

My generation mostly left school at 14 to work. Those who wanted then went to the excellent nightschool classes . leaving school early is fine.

My generation went to work in coal mines at or as chimney sweeps at 6. Twas grand...
I've no truck with such middle class liberal lefty values as trying to reduce domestic violence, empowering young girls, educating kids to break poverty cycles, to value a job where you earn a decent living rather than relying on benifets and handouts



"Young people who leave education without recognised qualifications are at a disadvantage in the labour market and are at increased risk of poverty and social exclusion."
From: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/educational_supports/early_school_leavers_programmes.html