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Does anyone know what the ethnic Traveller Status statement actually means?

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    #662
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users Posts: 15,971 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Johngoose wrote: »
    Whether you love Irish Travellers or dislike them,you have to admit the above article proves that vast sums of tax money are used to support their lifestyle.

    I'm pretty sure there are rich ones and not-so-rich ones and every shade in between, like the rest of us. Lads that come back from the uk at Xmas with luxury SUVs and others with battered white vans.


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    #663
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    What countries are you refering to ?


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    #664
    Means Of Escape
    Registered Users Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    You were entitled to make your "but at least they're better off than the street children of Calcutta" point to the Council of Europe, though suspect it's outside their jurisdiction. Think they looked at the services in the 54 sites provided out of the 1,000 that was felt would be needed when they determined that we were denying travellers basic human rights. A return of just over 5% of the target met in 20 years is poor...

    Yes a camparison can and should be made as to what truly defines a denial of basic human rights
    I listed a number of rights that none can be equated to the travelling community
    Medical services are in place . Money is eindfenced to assist those children who choose to attend school. Education for the community will not give them the short term rewards they want. They don't see education as an investment in their future and regardless if any pilot programmes set up in school for them to stay they simply won't. Once they reach their confirmation they leave.
    There are claims about halting sites and poor facilities and again the buildings that are provided are refused on grounds of no facilities for their horses etc
    Whatever way you roll the dice owning horses is a costly affair with vet bills and medicines to be paid.
    How is this paid for ??


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    #665
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Means Of Escape wrote: »
    Money is eindfenced to assist those children who choose to attend school. Education for the community will not give them the short term rewards they want. They don't see education as an investment in their future and regardless if any pilot programmes set up in school for them to stay they simply won't. Once they reach their confirmation they leave.

    You mean the education services for travellers that were cut by 86% between 2008 and 2013? The cuts that travellers and others vociferously objected to?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #666
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    You mean the education services for travellers that were cut by 86% between 2008 and 2013? The cuts that travellers and others vociferously objected to?

    What are education services for travellers? Are you talking about general cuts?


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    #667
    Means Of Escape
    Registered Users Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    end of the road wrote: »
    no need, ireland was guilty of true denial of some human rights to travelers. other human rights abuses while unexcusible are just irrelevant whataboutery and deflection in terms of the subject matter.

    Can you list the "true denial of some human / basic rights " so posters can debate them ?


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    #668
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    eviltwin wrote: »
    What are education services for travellers? Are you talking about general cuts?

    The visiting teacher scheme and resource teachers for travellers. Its all very well ranting and raving about travellers not completing school but when schemes that encourage them to go further in education get abolished then noone rants and raves!

    www.irishtimes.com/opinion/breda-o-brien-education-is-key-to-ending-traveller-inequality-1.2403755%3Fmode%3Damp

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #669
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    The visiting teacher scheme and resource teachers for travellers. Its all very well ranting and raving about travellers not completing school but when schemes that encourage them to go further in education get abolished then noone rants and raves!

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/breda-o-brien-education-is-key-to-ending-traveller-inequality-1.2403755%3Fmode%3Damp

    Didn't even know it existed. I'm against any cuts that target vulnerable kids but ultimately it's the role of parents to make sure their children attend school. The buck stops with them.


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    #670
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Didn't even know it existed. I'm against any cuts that target vulnerable kids but ultimately it's the role of parents to make sure their children attend school. The buck stops with them.

    It doesn't though. The state intervenes all the time so effectively the state takes responsibility too and rightly so.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/attendance_and_discipline_in_schools/school_attendance.html

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #671
    Means Of Escape
    Registered Users Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    You were entitled to make your "but at least they're better off than the street children of Calcutta" point to the Council of Europe, though suspect it's outside their jurisdiction. Think they looked at the services in the 54 sites provided out of the 1,000 that was felt would be needed when they determined that we were denying travellers basic human rights. A return of just over 5% of the target met in 20 years is poor...

    Living in a caravan in a halting site the CHOICE of the travelling community.
    Do you believe that improvements cannot be funded out of their own pockets to improve their quality of life rather than an expectation that councils must do it given that they must have some source of income bar the welfare payments otherwise the taxing of vans fuelling them and even buying them would not be possible on welfare payments?!
    So not providing adequate halting sites is a denial of basic human rights despite the shelter is provided to them by caravans ?
    Are the refuse fees paid for by the community ?
    Electricity ?
    Heating allowances ?


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    #672
    dan1895
    Registered Users Posts: 4,597 ✭✭✭dan1895


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    The visiting teacher scheme and resource teachers for travellers. Its all very well ranting and raving about travellers not completing school but when schemes that encourage them to go further in education get abolished then noone rants and raves!

    www.irishtimes.com/opinion/breda-o-brien-education-is-key-to-ending-traveller-inequality-1.2403755%3Fmode%3Damp

    That's unfortunate but the abolision of traveller specific education schemes isn't a denial of education as they aren't denied entry into the normal system that most of the rest of us go through.

    Or am I missing something?


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    #673
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    It doesn't though. The state intervenes all the time so effectively the state takes responsibility too and rightly so.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/attendance_and_discipline_in_schools/school_attendance.html

    Responsibility for a child receiving an education lies with the parent. I can't keep my child home and then cry discrimination when he's not getting the grades he needs, why should travellers be any different. If they really cared they would ensure they sent their children to school.


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    #674
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Means Of Escape wrote: »
    Can you list the "true denial of some human / basic rights " so posters can debate them ?

    The European Committee of Social Rights found that Irish law and practice breaches human rights on the following grounds:

    that many Traveller sites are in an inadequate condition,
    that there is insufficient provision of accommodation for Travellers,
    that Irish law provides inadequate safeguards for Travellers threatened with eviction, and
    that evictions are carried out in practice without necessary safeguards.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #675
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Responsibility for a child receiving an education lies with the parent. I can't keep my child home and then cry discrimination when he's not getting the grades he needs, why should travellers be any different. If they really cared they would ensure they sent their children to school.

    It is not the sole responsibility of the parent no. Tusla and schools also have responsibility in the area.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #676
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    It is not the sole responsibility of the parent no. Tusla and schools also have responsibility in the area.

    They have responsibility to support parents but ultimately it's up to the parent to make sure the child attends school. There is not much use to having that additional support if the parents can't be bothered to send the child to school.


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    #677
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    The visiting teacher scheme and resource teachers for travellers. Its all very well ranting and raving about travellers not completing school but when schemes that encourage them to go further in education get abolished then noone rants and raves!

    www.irishtimes.com/opinion/breda-o-brien-education-is-key-to-ending-traveller-inequality-1.2403755%3Fmode%3Damp

    while dis-proportionally hit with an 85% cut, unfortunately, a lot got cut:
    http://www.thejournal.ie/special-needs-assistants-ireland-958446-Jun2013/

    http://www.inclusionireland.ie/content/page/changes-resource-teaching-hours-children-education-needs

    dont recall anyone ranting and raving about that either.


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    #678
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    eviltwin wrote: »
    They have responsibility to support parents but ultimately it's up to the parent to make sure the child attends school. There is not much use to having that additional support if the parents can't be bothered to send the child to school.

    That's completely and utterly daft - what you are saying is the support to parents to send their children to school shouldn't be provided because parents don't want to send their children to school. So there is a problem but the support to actually address the problem shouldn't be given because the problem exists!!!!!

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #679
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    while dis-proportionally hit with an 85% cut, unfortunately, a lot got cut:
    http://www.thejournal.ie/special-needs-assistants-ireland-958446-Jun2013/

    http://www.inclusionireland.ie/content/page/changes-resource-teaching-hours-children-education-needs

    dont recall anyone ranting and raving about that either.

    Yes traveller education got DISPROPORTIONATELY cut - exactly

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #680
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Yes traveller education got DISPROPORTIONATELY cut - exactly

    everything got cut. no one protested.
    traveller kids were lumped in with all kids' resources.

    Wonder was there any CBA with the cuts though.


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    #681
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    everything got cut. no one protested.
    traveller kids were lumped in with all kids' resources.

    Wonder was there any CBA with the cuts though.

    But thats the point they were not lumped in with everyone because their cuts were disproportionately larger as you just said yourself. So on the one hand people complain travellers dont complete education - on the other well people support massive cuts to supports for them to continue in education. Farcical really.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #682
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    That's completely and utterly daft - what you are saying is the support to parents to send their children to school shouldn't be provided because parents don't want to send their children to school. So there is a problem but the support to actually address the problem shouldn't be given because the problem exists!!!!!

    No it's not daft. There should be help provided yes but it's not the responsibility of the state to make sure a traveller child attends school, if they are not being sent in or discouraged from continuing then we have to look at the primary carer as to why that is. Support will only go so far. I'm sick and tired of hearing excuse after excuse about why travellers don't access education, most are completely overlooking parental inertia.


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    #683
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    But thats the point they were not lumped in with everyone because their cuts were disproportionately larger as you just said yourself. So on the one hand people complain travellers dont complete education - on the other well people support massive cuts to supports for them to continue in education. Farcical really.

    i think most people believe education is the key to their plight.
    whether travellers have availed fully of the resources committed is another issue.


    per prevoius posts though, how does the ERRC v Ireland stand up with travellers themselves preferring to live in normal housing...
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/council-refuses-travellers-request-for-special-treatment-258550.html

    "The majority of Travellers who answered a survey on housing needs said they didn’t want to see transient halting sites springing up in the county.
    According to a report now compiled by the council, the majority of Travellers who completed the survey said they wanted their children to grow up in standard housing"


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    #684
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    It is not the sole responsibility of the parent no. Tusla and schools also have responsibility in the area.

    ultimate responsibility is.


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    #685
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    i think most people believe education is the key to their plight.
    whether travellers have availed fully of the resources committed is another issue.

    The resources that were slashed disproportionately by 86%? You are clearly taking the piss

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #686
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    It doesn't though. The state intervenes all the time so effectively the state takes responsibility too and rightly so.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/attendance_and_discipline_in_schools/school_attendance.html
    Eviltwin is right. The buck stops with parents. It's in the constitution.
    Yes traveller education got DISPROPORTIONATELY cut - exactly
    Additional traveller supports got cut disproportionately, because spending on traveller education was disproportionately higher to start with.
    That said even after the cuts traveller children still get more resources spent on them compared to a non-traveller child.

    I agree that helping out travellers stay in education is the best way forward.
    That said we went through a financial crisis.
    The state had to make cuts, everyone had to tighten their belts.
    And I'm guessing making cuts elsewhere would have affected the education of a lot more children.


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    #687
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,297 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    cursai wrote: »
    Go into any hospital where there is a sick relative of theirs. The limit on visitors to a patient is out the window.
    That a Garda is needed to ensure the hospital staff don't get assaulted and to stop stuff being stolen whenever a traveller is in hospital is just coincidental, I'm sure.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Stop the press. Did you say they visit sick relatives in excessive numbers?
    When I broke my arm and was waiting in A&E for it to be looked at, there was no less than 15 travellers and two Gardai in the A&E corridor (where there is a max of 2 people with the patient). The Gardai were there as one of the staff was physically threatened by a traveller, and medical equipment had gone missing.

    Regarding the bit in
    http://www.coe.int/en/web/turin-european-social-charter/home/-/asset_publisher/Vugk5b0dLMWq/content/the-decision-on-the-merits-of-the-complaint-errc-v-ireland-became-public?_101_INSTANCE_Vugk5b0dLMWq_viewMode=view/
    that says
    on the grounds of insufficient provision of accommodation for Travellers
    Johngoose wrote: »
    https://www.google.ie/amp/amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/672000-spent-on-24-hour-security-at-traveller-housing-project-431706.html
    Travellers initially refused to relocate in a stand-off over horses and other issues, but they eventually agreed to move in on June 15, 2015.
    They don't always want to go into the houses that are provided.

    For a people that demand to be treated the same, they demand that they are treated differently with regards to room for their trailer, room for their horses, etc.


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    #688
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    ultimate responsibility is.

    Sole responsibility isn't!!!!!

    On the one hand you have people giving out travellers dont complete education - on the the other you have supports for traveller education completion being slashed and these cuts being dismissed - absolute farce

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #689
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,044 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    Additional traveller supports got cut disproportionately, because spending on traveller education was disproportionately higher to start with.

    Because traveller non completion of education was disproportionately higher to start with

    Again another example of the farce of people bemoaning low education completion rates and attacking supports to tackle those problems.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #690
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Sole responsibility isn't!!!!!

    On the one hand you have people giving out travellers dont complete education - on the the other you have supports for traveller education completion being slashed and dismissed - absolute farce

    Are you really suggesting cuts to services are the reason travellers don't complete education? Really??

    Nothing to do with a lack of value placed on education, the lack of education of parents who can't support their kids learning, the rampant social issues, women's role being seen as in the home etc?

    None of that has a role, it's all the state's fault..


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    #691
    Means Of Escape
    Registered Users Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    The European Committee of Social Rights found that Irish law and practice breaches human rights on the following grounds:

    that many Traveller sites are in an inadequate condition,
    that there is insufficient provision of accommodation for Travellers,
    that Irish law provides inadequate safeguards for Travellers threatened with eviction, and
    that evictions are carried out in practice without necessary safeguards.

    Accommodation issues
    Nothing about access to education
    Provisions in education
    Medical services
    Ability to move freely in the country

    One should remember that a law signed into law by our former president not to allow the travelling community to set up a camp anywhere they liked which was the case up to that point with little powers in place to remove them
    Halting sites have been provided one to the time of 5 million euros recently and there was a refusal to move into it .....
    Goes back to the pointed issue of a sense of entitlement whereby others should pay for what is classed as adequate facilities yet the dwellers will make zero contribution to the said site financially
    We can't even start at the Cust of clean up faces by councils at areas where they do decide to "settle " temporarily or Kilkee co Clare public car park a number of years back that restricted other members of the public from using the car park
    We can all cry for equality and respect and yet very little evidence is presented to show that the travelling community has any interest in integrating into society.
    We on the other hand are expected to respect and show the hands of friendship to a group who break laws with impunity , pride themselves in bare knuckle fighting , cause mini riots during family feuds and won't avail of an education system that has provisions in place for those in need of both educational and financial help .
    Where does the word accountability come into this subject ?


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