"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Grayson · 07-03-2017 01:15AM

KKkitty wrote: »

They were leaders of their respective countries so why would they be excommunicated? The RCC didn't denounce world leaders only the vulnerable in society after all. All as bad as each other IMO.

Like that nun in the US who was excommunicated because she terminated a pregnancy to save a womans life.

I'd love to leave the church officially. It's stupid that it'#s an organisation most of us were inducted into when we were babies but are not allowed leave as adults.

Grayson · 07-03-2017 01:23AM

The three most read stories on the Irish times are related to church abuses.

Mr.Micro · 07-03-2017 01:28AM

Grayson wrote: »

The three most read stories on the Irish times are related to church abuses.

It should also include the State. It allowed all this to happen ever since De Valera took power back in the day.

please helpThank YOU · 07-03-2017 01:32AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Pretty much the same as happens to kids who get too old for the state care system now ...

Nothing's changed folks.

Very Well Said Fostering Children massive industry money to be made in the children care industry family law courts massive industry I was Listen to rte to nite and the people who where fostering Grace had 47 other children in care :mad: there is sum evil people in this fostering care industry its like sumthing from the 16th century give them chidren the chicken bones as the fostering money makers gorge themselves with there riches made from poor families .:mad:

beauf · 07-03-2017 01:38AM

the full interview with Catherin Corless back 2yrs ago. . perhaps its already been posted.

"...unedited interview with Catherin Corless..."
https://youtu.be/Jw4UKfZqTzw

The Legend Of Kira · 07-03-2017 01:40AM

smurgen wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/tuam-babies-scandal-is-fake-news-claims-the-catholic-league-35504516.html lovely people.deny deny deny,deflect,deflect,deflect.

Regarding some people dismissing it as " fake news " , I know some people on the left have this " no platform " position- I have the exact opposite position when people like this can speak publicly it allows the general public to see his/her true colours thus exposing themselves , speaking of which a guy who contest the general election in the South East last year also dismissed Tuam as " fake news " .

https://twitter.com/johndwalsh/status/838542583768973312

KKkitty · 07-03-2017 01:55AM

Grayson wrote: »

Like that nun in the US who was excommunicated because she terminated a pregnancy to save a womans life.

I'd love to leave the church officially. It's stupid that it'#s an organisation most of us were inducted into when we were babies but are not allowed leave as adults.

That nun was saving a woman's life not ruining it though. No oppression there.

chasm · 07-03-2017 02:06AM

wil wrote: »

I wonder who was sitting on the records I mentioned, now online, were they sitting waiting to be scanned in some office. They could have become available 10 years or more ago under the 50 year rule?

The same check on place of burial should now be done on all the other homes including Sean Ross Abbey Roscrea, which afaik was put up for sale in recent years.

Edit
The civil records I mentioned above are at irishgenealogy.ie
Apparently formally launched in January.

I just checked and Sean Ross Abbey is one of the institutions listed under the Terms of Reference in the "Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes"

(1) Mother and Baby Homes as follows:

1) Ard Mhuire, Dunboyne, Co. Meath;

2) Belmont (Flatlets), Belmont Ave, Dublin 4;

3) Bessboro House, Blackrock, Cork;

4) Bethany Home, originally Blackhall Place, Dublin 7 and from 1934 Orwell Road, Rathgar, Dublin 6;

5) Bon Secours Mother and Baby Home, Tuam, Co. Galway;

6) Denny House, Eglinton Rd, Dublin 4, originally Magdalen Home, 8 Lower Leeson St, Dublin 2;

7) Kilrush, Cooraclare Rd, Co. Clare;

8) Manor House, Castlepollard, Co. Westmeath;

9) Ms. Carr’s (Flatlets), 16 Northbrook Rd, Dublin 6;

10) Regina Coeli Hostel, North Brunswick Street, Dublin 7;

11) Sean Ross Abbey, Roscrea, Co. Tipperary;

12) St. Gerard’s, originally 39, Mountjoy Square, Dublin 1;

13) St. Patrick’s, Navan Road, Dublin 7, originally known as Pelletstown, and subsequent transfer to Eglinton House, Eglinton Rd, Dublin 4; and

14) The Castle, Newtowncunningham, Co. Donegal.

(2) County Homes

1) St Kevin's Institution (Dublin Union)

2) Stranorlar County Home, Co Donegal (St Joseph's)

3) Cork City County Home (St Finbarr's)

4) Thomastown County Home, Co Kilkenny (St Columba's)

1Historical and official sources may refer to these institutions by various names, and in some cases the Homes may have moved premises during their period of operation.

http://www.mbhcoi.ie/MBH.nsf/page/index-en

weirdspider · 07-03-2017 02:50AM

Esel wrote: »

They had almost 2,000 years to get their act together.

True.
It's just one of those news stories that I think will haunt me forever. So disturbing just heaping piles of dead babies into the ground. Even though it happened a while ago now it just evokes so much sadness. Poor, helpless little children.

Esel · 07-03-2017 03:02AM

KKkitty wrote: »

I'm sure it's been said before in this thread but I'll say it again. There was a time when the Irish people feared the RCC. You dare not say a word against them no matter what they did or said. Expectant mothers whose biggest sin was getting pregnant outside of marriage had their babies ripped away from them. Young children were sent to RCC institutions to be beaten and mistreated. The RCC has a lot to answer for. The Vatican also knew everything that was going on in this country with mother and baby homes and Christian Brothers schools but yet didn't so much as excommunicate the priests or nuns that did the harm to the kids of this country. In all likelihood they moved them to another parish so no one knew them or what they did.

Can we please not conflate here?

Esel · 07-03-2017 03:12AM

maryishere wrote: »

Both Hitler and Mussolini were Catholics and were not excommunicated, so you would not expect those who were responsible for the kids in this country to be excommunicated?

Better late than never. I have no popcorn - will peanuts do?

please helpThank YOU · 07-03-2017 04:15AM

Baby is adopted a child is give to the joneses the perfect fake nice family who look down on the unmarried mother in tuam galway and it s likes the nun gets the brown envelope and the whole town keeps quite with there dirty secrets . this is like Creepy horror movie the whole town of tuam galway knew this dirty secrets not even a rumor but the all keep quite disgusting

gctest50 · 07-03-2017 04:15AM

.

please helpThank YOU · 07-03-2017 04:25AM

gctest50 wrote: »

.

ADOLF HITLER IN TUAM GALWAY

gctest50 · 07-03-2017 05:36AM

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Regarding some people dismissing it as " fake news " , I know some people on the left have this " no platform " position- I have the exact opposite position when people like this can speak publicly it allows the general public to see his/her true colours thus exposing themselves , speaking of which a guy who contest the general election in the South East last year also dismissed Tuam as " fake news " .

https://twitter.com/johndwalsh/status/838542583768973312

Strange / dodgy bloke - believes he was destined to survive to torment someone

Mr.Wemmick · 07-03-2017 05:41AM

The high horse brigade wrote: »

You would need to start by removing the traditional Dail prayer and re writing the constitution.

There have already been calls to do so. How backward we still are that we continue to think it okay to keep everything as it is when the failure to protect vulnerable citizens continues to be beyond shameful.

Emily Logan, chief commissioner of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, said: “These concluding observations form a clear ‘to do’ list for the State to bring its law, policy and practice in line with international standards on women’s rights and equality.”

Quote taken from: http://www.thejournal.ie/womens-rights-un-committee-3274008-Mar2017/

As for the traditional Dail prayer, what utter backward archaic nonsense! No modern democracy just the Dark ages at play. I know Ireland is young, but you would wonder if the state will ever grow up.

ChikiChiki · 07-03-2017 05:42AM

gctest50 wrote: »

Strange / dodgy bloke - believes he was destined to survive to torment someone

What an absolute freakish person. :-/

A good example of how brainwashed people are is my mother. She is afraid to miss mass on a Sunday yet doesn't believe in the afterlife. That generation I think suffered things that my generation (Im 29) will never fully understand.

Graces7 · 07-03-2017 05:54AM

pilly wrote: »

Jesus Christ, that's just unreal, although to be fair the majority of people would just see that as insanity.

What did make me take stock over the weekend though was the lack of response from the Tuam people. A reporter who was there on Friday notes that there was no-one at the sight and one small bunch of flowers.

Also people actually asked her to leave it alone.

The only person I know from Tuam said "well sure we knew that 2014 why does it all have to be dragged up again" and I get the feeling that's the general consensus.

Whilst I understand that they must feel ashamed, unfortunately shame is a necessary emotion so as that mistakes from the past are not repeated.

Could they now show some love and support?

Anyone on this thread from Tuam might tell me what the actual local response is?

They have shown love and caring all these years. And have made some peace

But for them, who knpws but that houses would have been built over the graves
Now...
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/locals-are-deeply-worried-about-where-tuam-babies-will-be-laid-to-rest-35504505.html

Graces7 · 07-03-2017 05:55AM

RobertKK wrote: »

I suspect there are a lot of elderly ladies who don't want their past dragged up, as they believe their secret is hidden.
Maybe married, had families, have grandchildren and the secret is unknown.

The truth is needed, but there are women who were there and had babies, who lost babies and maybe worried their past which they believed was the past and unknown, would become known to loved ones that they don't want to know.

Everyone always knew. But yes painful.

Graces7 · 07-03-2017 06:01AM

smurgen wrote: »

We need to have all of the remains examined first.800 is a suspiciously large amount of bodies.Thing is given the amount of time the church has covered up the burial site alot of key evidence may have already been destroyed.investigators should move fast on this site and others to preserve the evidence.

No one has said they have found 800 bodies. There are 800 death certificates . One article mentioned concern re the playground andmorebodies under that.

Incidentally those criticising Tuam residents? It was they who stopped the burial place being made into a playground, And can you imagine the situation there with all the reporters and cameras etc?

I would certainly close my curtains and stay inside.

Graces7 · 07-03-2017 06:04AM

[QUOTE=Zebra3;102832961]The worst thing the Brits did in Ireland was let over a million starve to death.

The worst thing the Brits did? Hmmm, some fierce competition there.[/QUOTE]

aided and abetted by the Catholic Church

Graces7 · 07-03-2017 06:07AM

pilly wrote: »

You haven't answered my question about the victims and survivors? Do they not deserve to feel better?

How would you feel as a survivor of that cesspit if you went down there this weekend and there was nothing but an eerie silence. Lonely I'd imagine.

We can all sit around on our arses and feel crap about it and rant on internet forums and cause silly arguments but yes I believe showing your disgust and support is important.

If you don't then fine, we'll have to agree to disagree.

WIth all the reporters, hardly lonely sllence. And yes I would prefer silence.

Graces7 · 07-03-2017 06:15AM

kylith wrote: »

Ah Grace, come on. Do you really think that if education and health hadn't been handled by religious orders we'd all be sitting here uneducated and dying of basic diseases? Of course not.

The early state left education and health to the church because they were already set up for it. If they hadn't been then the state would have set up the hospitals and schools. What went wrong is that no-one ever said 'Thanks very much, we'll take it from here' once the Republic was on its feet.

They had the "manpower" simply. You need to read some basic history OBJECTIVEY

The state would not and could not use the sheer numbers of women and men the orders brought in. In their thousands literally. Well organised, controlled. A small army in fact.
Dragooned into working all hours.

Bit different from todays teachers and health workers! No work to rule, no strikes no pay demands as in the early days the nuns were not paid.

But OK demonise totally! It actually makes it worse that they did good early on, which was and is my point.

Graces7 · 07-03-2017 06:17AM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Where did Catherine Corless get the death certificates from?

These like Birth Certs are easily available nationwide as they are on public record . Registry office stuff.

Graces7 · 07-03-2017 06:20AM

looksee wrote: »

https://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/PublicationsPre2000/PlaceReligious1991.pdf

I will post this again. Maybe some of the people crediting the church(s) with introducing education in Ireland will read it.

That document has nothing to do with the subject. Did you get the wrong reference?

Graces7 · 07-03-2017 06:21AM

Neyite wrote: »

Well, the Archdiocese is on record as saying they had no idea. The nuns, through their PR firm, denied it to the hilt. This was a leaked email from their PR firm.

Certainly that happened in some homes around the country I'm sure. And I'm sure that some women did develop mental health issues as a result of their ordeal. I don't know /haven't heard of it happening in this particular home but the enquiry is only really going to start now and who knows what it will reveal?

Yes of course. Anyone who went out of control.

Graces7 · 07-03-2017 06:23AM

smurgen wrote: »

I genuinely thing the church is a law unto itself in the country and the operate in a parralel society.take for example the refusal of some or the religious orders to contribute toward compensation for abuse victims. The state should seize the assets of these organisation until they pay the compensation due by them to survivors if their abuse.http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/shortfall-in-contribution-to-compensation-scheme-damages-catholic-church-s-authority-1.2813775

they bin trying to do that for decades! so far?

Graces7 · 07-03-2017 06:25AM

weekday wrote: »

forgive them father for they know not what they do

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..

please helpThank YOU · 07-03-2017 06:28AM

Graces7 wrote: »

aided and abetted by the Catholic Church

800 SOCIAL OUTCASTS MOTHERS CHILDREN AND REJECTED BY SOCIETY WHY AND NO ONE CARED WHY THE WHERE LOWER SOCIAL CLASS AND THE POOREST . IRELAND IS ABOUT CLASS ITS LIKE INDIA FULL OF UPSTARTS TALKING OUT THERE CROOKED NOSES

Graces7 · 07-03-2017 06:30AM

wil wrote: »

I am not sure if anybody realises most of these are probably now available online in the civil records. But only in the last few months.

Ireland's historical civil records were released online towards the end of 2016.
Births, deaths and marriages. I accidentally came across them while looking up some details for a family ancestor. They appear as scanned sheets of 10 names per sheet and are afaik the details off the death cert recorded in the local council office to register the death. The indexing is basic - name, year, age at death.

While searching I came across a person with a similar name who died in Sean Ross Abbey in Roscrea at age 0.

What shocked me most was there were 4 other names of under one year old infants on the same page all died in Sean Ross Abbey, all listed as son or daughter of a house servant, all different causes, all from different parts of the country, all reported by the same name, an "occupier"
Looking at several other sheets, all the same story, 4/5/6 names per sheet.
A search shows over 1000 infant deaths under one in the small town of Roscrea between 1930 -1950
A search of Tuam shows exactly the same pattern.

What I can't comprehend, among many things, is that if I can look at a list of so many infant deaths on one sheet from a civil office, signed by I presume a local council official and go "what the holy f", then where was the same reaction from the human pen pusher in these council offices dotted around the country.

To put some context on it. Many of the other infant deaths, who died at their own home had coroner or inquest details, even back in those years. No such mention for these poor children under the so called care of nuns. I wonder did they even see a doctor before being allocated their many and various causes of death. Shocking and appalling.

sean ross abbey was another hell hole. can anyone remember the name of the film about that? I visited as part of my research and butter would not melt.

Not Philomena; there was an earlier one

They dealt mostly with mentally handicapped children and when, innocent still, I asked why there was so much mental handicap in Ireland, they told me that it was because young ones were sent abroad and came back by accident to their home village and married their relatives... they were the ones doing the sending of course

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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