"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

pilly · 07-03-2017 12:23PM

beauf wrote: »

I don't think the RCC is the sole guilty party in this. Irish society in general all had a part to play in this. Kids from these schools attended local schools. This was all over the country, Dublin etc. The families the mothers and kids came from were from all parts of the country.

Irish society at large is culpable.

Are we really more enlightened now when have current crisis in care homes, hospitals, housing. Where is our outrage about that.

I agree. Lots of people don't want to see it though because it means they will have to feel guilt and shame.

I feel guilty and ashamed today and I'm not afraid to admit that.

nhunter100 · 07-03-2017 12:47PM

beauf wrote:

I don't think the RCC is the sole guilty party in this. Irish society in general all had a part to play in this. Kids from these schools attended local schools. This was all over the country, Dublin etc. The families the mothers and kids came from were from all parts of the country.

When you have no other defense, spread the guilt. Right?

Seth Brundle · 07-03-2017 01:02PM

pilly wrote: »

3. If there are 800 death certs there are certainly 800 bodies. They haven't been found yet but they are somewhere, hopefully.

There are approx 800 certs but we don't yet know how many bodies.
AFAIK some of the ~1000 human trafficking sales were recorded as deaths in the cover up.

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Is there scope for a class action against the Church and those who facilitated their deeds, or would that almost by definition mean suing just about everyone? Catholic Church, the state, doctors, and the general public?

The state were inspecting these institutions so were partly culpable.
Anyhow, the RCC avails of tax breaks from us and yet still doesn't pay us the money it promised to. Any further compensation payable to the state by the church is also likely to be ignored.

Neyite · 07-03-2017 01:40PM

Mr.Wemmick wrote: »

How many more enquiries are we going to have tho', how many more reports? Doesn't change the fact they get away with it and have failed to pay what they owe to victims and their families.

It certainly needs to go go down the criminal road and the head/representative of the Nuns order should be held accountable, fully and completely. Malnutrition and starvation, avoidable diseases can be proven with thorough medical investigations. Then at least if they don't pay what they owe, their property can be seized/their power broken. It would be the turning in the road for lawful prosecutions against religious orders in this country. The law is the only way to make these changes now.

The law of the land should have the power, not the religious orders/RCC.

I hope criminal convictions would result from this - Gardai have already been called in so that's promising I guess?

I would love to see the orders assets seized and redistributed, but I'm talking about actual proof that would stand up in a court of law. Whether we like it or not, we do have due process in Ireland and we cant convict someone because we want to, we need proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

It's unlikely that we can prove malnutrition and deliberate starvation from decades old bones alone. We might know it happened. We might hear anecdotal data, even witness statements but it might not be enough to convict.

We don't know yet if there are 796 bodies there. We know that's how many children supposedly died in the home and have no matching burial records but until the pit is properly processed we haven't a complete tally -maybe some of those recorded as died were really adopted. We just don't know yet.

We might have proof of fraudulent record keeping, but because the records were handed over to the Co Co when the home closed, the two organisations will just point the finger at each other and we will be none the wiser.

But we need something, and we need to do this right - the world is watching. The coalition of M&B home survivors estimate that as many as 7,000 could be buried across the country by the Homes. To put this into context, that estimate is more than double the total amount of people who died in the 9/11 terror attacks in the USA.

Time to get the finger out Pope Frank.

Electric Sheep · 07-03-2017 01:42PM

Neyite wrote: »

But we need something, and we need to do this right - the world is watching.

So yet again it is all about what the neighbors will think.:rolleyes:

Neyite · 07-03-2017 01:47PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

So yet again it is all about what the neighbors will think.:rolleyes:

No, what I meant was that our politicans (who do think like that) should bear this in mind and not try to sweep this under the carpet or drag it out in a never ending enquiry.

I've never given a fcuk what the neighbours thought.

Noddyholder · 07-03-2017 02:15PM

You want to be listening to live line were a fr Paul is saying he was told all was good and ok in Tuam, unbelievable ffs.

Neyite · 07-03-2017 02:16PM

Noddyholder wrote: »

You want to be listening to live line were a fr Paul is saying he was told all was good and ok in Tuam, unbelievable ffs.

I couldn't. Liveline sends me into a rage at the best of times. That would tip me over the edge entirely.

kylith · 07-03-2017 02:29PM

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/tuam-no-evidence-of-crime-nobody-to-prosecute-444513.html wrote:

A forensic expert said that 50 years on, the chances of establishing a cause of death were “very low” as except for cases such as strangulation, bones would bear no signs.

About the above: scientists can take a tooth from a 10,000 year old skeleton and tell me where he grew up and what he ate and if he ate well, but they can't test and see if there are deficiencies in a body mere decades old that could be a factor in their death?

nelly17 · 07-03-2017 02:40PM

I came across This article on St Patricks - it provides a Glimpse into the complex Social/State & Church issue

RobertKK · 07-03-2017 02:48PM

I think a lot of them will have died from disease.

Look at the children in recent times in the care of the HSE...

http://www.thejournal.ie/deaths-children-state-care-preventable-hse-official-report-494026-Jun2012/

The report of the Independent Child Death Review Group, commissioned under the previous government, found that of 196 deaths of children who were known to the State’s child protection services between 2000 and 2010, a total of 112 died of “non natural causes”.

The majority of the children who died from non-natural causes while in the direct care of the State were teenagers, with four-fifths of deaths occurring at age 14 or over.

Three children younger than this – including one who was just 4 years old – also died of non-natural causes, though the individual causes of death are not listed in their cases.

Five of the 17 deaths of children in direct care were drug-related, while five took their own lives, and another two were the victims of unlawful deaths.

84 natural deaths of children in state care from 2000 to 2010 out of a total of 196 children. This in a time when the country was booming, diseases control, prevention and cure rates much higher than the time of the Tuam's Mother and baby home.

I think people like to think we live in enlightened times, but one can be sure that many scandals are happening now, that will be revealed in decades ahead.
History repeats itself.

The biggest scandal involving Tuam in 2017 is how the dead were treated and basically dumped. The biggest scandal of that era is how the women and dead were treated.

gctest50 · 07-03-2017 03:19PM

In 1938, the nuns got £1.62 per week per child.
About €110 in today's money.
Children's allowance is €32.30 now

https://twitter.com/Donal_OKeeffe/status/839114396777472004?p=v#

pilly · 07-03-2017 03:23PM

gctest50 wrote: »

In 1938, the nuns got £1.62 per week per child.
About €110 in today's money.
Children's allowance is €32.30 now

https://twitter.com/Donal_OKeeffe/status/839114396777472004?p=v#

I'm not one for sticking up for the nuns but that's not a fair comparison. Children's allowance isn't the only income parents have now.

Laois_Man · 07-03-2017 03:34PM

According to the report of the Inter-Departmental Group on Mother and Baby Homes via Department of Children and Youth Affairs, this is what the 796 babies died from. I didnt think it was unknown. Its recorded. The only thing that is not recorded is their burials

?width=630&version=3269000

What I want to know is.....

How were these homes funded through the time-period that the Tuam home was in operation?

In order for these prognoses to be arrived at. there must have been some outside medical personnel involved in treating them. Who were they? What did they know of the situation and who funded that?

What was the cost of a proper burial at these times and where would that money have come from?

From where did the order source food and medicine and who funded that?

Were they swamped with too many to cater for without adequate financial assistance or expertise and without the power to turn people away?

There's a ton of questions to be answered and can't be and shouldn't be all dismissed by statement to the effect that they were all evil bitches. There's more to it.

....... · 07-03-2017 03:35PM

This post has been deleted.

nelly17 · 07-03-2017 03:36PM

pilly wrote: »

I'm not one for sticking up for the nuns but that's not a fair comparison. Children's allowance isn't the only income parents have now.

That's not the only source of income the homes had too - don't forget that there were generous donations from abroad from prospective Adopting Parents, Not to mention Moneys received for Medical trials & State subsidies to upgrade their facilities.

I think the comparison is more than fair

jimgoose · 07-03-2017 03:36PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

FYP.

07-03-2017 03:57PM

nelly17 wrote: »

I came across This article on St Patricks - it provides a Glimpse into the complex Social/State & Church issue

I googled St Rita's in Ranelagh where another of the horrors mentioned by Mike Milotte was, and it's this very small house at 68 Sandford Road, Ranelagh. I'm surprised how small it was:

Here
Streetview here

Keating owned St Rita’s nursing home in Ranelagh, and in 1965 she was put on probation for falsifying a birth record. But behind this seemingly technical charge lay an enterprise involving private nursing homes that ran a sideline business providing “illegitimate” babies, born in their homes, to people who, for whatever reason, couldn’t or didn’t want to adopt legally. Their modus operandi was simple. Instead of registering the baby in the name of its unmarried mother, as the law required, they registered it in the name of the couple to whom the baby was given, a serious criminal offence.
The falsification process is outlined in a letter from St Rita’s to a prospective adoptive parent in the US. It is also logged in detail in the Irish special-branch report. The New Haven Register article from 1955 describes the situation for US military personnel, who accounted for many of the adoptions. “To adopt a baby the American soldier and his wife would travel to Dublin, where the wife checked in to the nursing home as an expectant mother. An Irish woman would actually bear the child, but the birth would be registered in the name of the American.”
“The impact of this practice has been devastating for many people,” says Christine Hennessey of Barnardos, the children’s charity, because “it is almost impossible for them to find out anything about their background” – something many adopted people yearn for and the rest of us take for granted.
The Republic had about 40 private nursing homes at this time. Like St Rita’s, all are now closed.... (Mike Milotte, 'The baby black market')

07-03-2017 04:02PM

It's also deeply disturbing that Mike Milotte's book was published as long ago as 1997. Here's a review from Pádraig Ó Moráin of The Irish Times back in 1997:

Mike Milotte, Banished Babies (1997)

20 years ago. This buying and selling babies, changing their names and registering foreign purchasers as the legitimate parents has been public knowledge for a long, long time. Time for this state and society to face up to all this honestly and move on (it doesn't matter than other countries have similar issues that they sweep under the carpet). This means everybody from the local bishop to the local doctor to the local solictor to the local garda to the local nurse being examined for their roles.

07-03-2017 04:11PM

There was an especially heartbreaking interview on Liveline a couple of hours ago with a lady calling herself Bridget. Raw stuff. She spoke in detail about how, in 1960, she wanted to call her son William but he was more "marketable" for purchasers if he was called Gerald so the people in the Bessborough Home in Mahon, Cork, called him that.

Bridget's story

Grayson · 07-03-2017 04:17PM

Neyite wrote: »

The problem is that we know what was done was disgusting, immoral, wrong, unchristian and brutal (I could go on and on here!)

Just on the comment that what they did was unchristian. It wasn't. Each of those nuns thought they were doing the right thing. None of them thought they were behaving unchristian. They had the support of the church and there's more than enough vile material in the bible that could justify their stance.

Being "christian" is very subjective. It's why there are groups like the KKK who are christian and groups like the salvation army. They couldn't be more different from each other but they're both christian groups.

I once heard someone say that to follow the bible to the word you'd have to be psychotic because there's so much nastiness and so much good in there. I believe people find what they want. If they're assholes they'll find justification/guidance for being an asshole, if they're good people they'll find justification/guidance for being a good person.
And they'll spread their beliefs too. So in Ireland at that time, locking up unmarried mothers was considered being a good catholic. The women were fallen and needed to be redeemed. The women could not be trusted to raise their own children. Society also needed to be protected from them. The church believed this as did most of their flock.
The nuns were actually being good Christians/Catholics.

07-03-2017 04:18PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I googled St Rita's in Ranelagh where another of the horrors mentioned by Mike Milotte was, and it's this very small house at 68 Sandford Road, Ranelagh

Mike Milotte wrote:

St Rita’s may have had friends in high places. At one point in the 1960s, when it seemed that Keating [woman who ran St Rita's] might lose her licence, a priest went to the Dáil to rustle up support. There he met Charles Haughey, then agriculture minister, who laughingly said “half the children born in St Rita’s” had been fathered by TDs.

This sounds like an exaggeration, but it could indicate that St Rita’s was a nursing home favoured by men of power for confining women they had got pregnant – but who weren’t their wives – and whose identities Keating permanently obliterated by falsely registering their babies’ births.

Feck sake

Seth Brundle · 07-03-2017 04:24PM

Noddyholder wrote: »

You want to be listening to live line were a fr Paul is saying he was told all was good and ok in Tuam, unbelievable ffs.

I'm not listening to the radio so don't know who Fr. Paul is but how do you know he wasn't told all was ok in Tuam?

kylith wrote: »

About the above: scientists can take a tooth from a 10,000 year old skeleton and tell me where he grew up and what he ate and if he ate well, but they can't test and see if there are deficiencies in a body mere decades old that could be a factor in their death?

Many of the children and mothers apparently arrived in a disheveled state, undernourished, etc.
I'm not trying to excuse the place or the fact that there were so many, frequent deaths, but at the moment, we don't have any evidence that they weren't beyond hope before the nuns got their hands on them.

The scientists can presumably detect certain deficiencies in the remains. When these deficiencies occurred is not as simple to deduce.

laoch na mona · 07-03-2017 04:26PM

kbannon wrote: »

Many of the children and mothers apparently arrived in a disheveled state, undernourished, etc.
I'm not trying to excuse the place or the fact that there were so many, frequent deaths, but at the moment, we don't have any evidence that they weren't beyond hope before the nuns got their hands on them.

Because starvation hasn't been an issue in Irish society since the 1920s.

pilly · 07-03-2017 04:30PM

The amount of apologists coming out of the woodwork now is unreal.

Can I just ask, what possible motive would you have for defending these nuns?

The only one I can think of is that it's too hard to believe but it's time we copped on to this. It happened, no denying, no minimising, no defending.

Seth Brundle · 07-03-2017 04:39PM

pilly wrote: »

The amount of apologists coming out of the woodwork now is unreal.

Can I just ask, what possible motive would you have for defending these nuns?

The only one I can think of is that it's too hard to believe but it's time we copped on to this. It happened, no denying, no minimising, no defending.

In case you're referring to me, I'm not apologising for anyone. In fact I've made my views on the RCC crystal clear in this thread.

I would like a fact based debate rather than a torch wielding mob screaming for blood when the all the facts aren't yet available. Do I really need to apologise for this?

So on your point: "it happened" - what exactly happened?
How did it happen?
How many people did it happen to?
Why did it happen?

Hagar7 · 07-03-2017 04:56PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I googled St Rita's in Ranelagh where another of the horrors mentioned by Mike Milotte was, and it's this very small house at 68 Sandford Road, Ranelagh. I'm surprised how small it was:

Here
Streetview here

Nothing short of scandalous.:mad:

please helpThank YOU · 07-03-2017 05:07PM

after l listen to Joe Duffy live line today this was 100 per cent a big money maker for Tuam Galway at the time . doctors involved in this scandal as well and when then children escaped the local Gardai caught them poor children brought them back to foster home/slaughterhouse to get them ready for market/fostered children industry what have we learned from this nothing as matter of fact this fostered children industry has got bigger government agence hse/tusla with 4000 staff plus there is 4500 children in foster care in Ireland today and hse /tusla Solicitors its massive money to made in this industry so Tuam Galway will keep going on into the future. the basic fostering allowance is currently 352 euros per week per child so we have 4500 children out in foster care which is payout of 1584000 euros a week a month payout is 15840000 euros a year payout is 823680000 euros I hate the word care this is so FAKE

blinding · 07-03-2017 05:08PM

Just out of curiosity ;

Where was the State ?

Where were FF/FG/Lab or what ever other political parties were around in those days ?

Did a lot of Babies die in those times from infections/tuberculosis/or other ailments that could be treated today .

By the way I am an atheist and have been since I was old enough to realise this religion stuff is well dodgy (13/14 made even before)

The catholic church is becoming a very handy scapegoat for so many of the ills of this country in the past . They are such a handy cop out for the political parties that were in power and the State .

I am not saying that the Catholic church are with-out blame . They have behaved very badly particularly those at the top that appear to have protected the Institution at all costs.

Look also at the Political parties and the State because you can be sure that the political parties were well aware of what was going on . To Irish political parties information was/is power and they made sure that they knew what was going on in Irish society .

Your Face · 07-03-2017 05:46PM

blinding wrote: »

Just out of curiosity ;

Where was the State ?

Where were FF/FG/Lab or what ever other political parties were around in those days ?

Did a lot of Babies die in those times from infections/tuberculosis/or other ailments that could be treated today .

By the way I am an atheist and have been since I was old enough to realise this religion stuff is well dodgy (13/14 made even before)

The catholic church is becoming a very handy scapegoat for so many of the ills of this country in the past . They are such a handy cop out for the political parties that were in power and the State .

I am not saying that the Catholic church are with-out blame . They have behaved very badly particularly those at the top that appear to have protected the Institution at all costs.

Look also at the Political parties and the State because you can be sure that the political parties were well aware of what was going on . To Irish political parties information was/is power and they made sure that they knew what was going on in Irish society .

Stop raising reasonable points.

Its all about who we can blame with repect to our various persuasions.

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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