"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

BlinkingLights · 06-03-2017 07:43AM

Graces7 wrote: »

canada, australia.. all run and staffed in the same appalling way by the Irish,,,, so yes.

The Quebecois largely staffed the big Canadian scandals.
I think the issue is institutional not national.

I'd be careful not to fall into the usual Irish self hatred or imperial Irish bashing mode.

Ireland's population was the victim of this insanity that gripped the place in the early and mid 20th century.

The Irish were the only large English speaking catholic group, so you will of course encounter Irish management of institutions in Australia etc.

The issue arose where you've massive institutionalisation going on and where it was used as a tool of coerssion or social engineering as was the case in Ireland, Spain, Australia, Canada and a very covered up British scenario, in which they "exported" thousand upon thousands of orphens to Australia in particular to end a social problem in Britian and populate the colonies ... Many of those kids were used for hard farm labour.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Australians

A lot of horrendous stuff happened and while we are front and centre historically we don't have a monopoly on it.

neonsofa · 06-03-2017 07:50AM

Graces7 wrote: »

[/B]

Celibacy is not suppression. Period.

Grace it would be a lot more beneficial if you actually explained what you meant in your posts, if you believe someone is saying something that is incorrect maybe try and inform them why, rather than throwing out random sentences that quite frankly don't make sense. I'd be willing to hear your opinion on the above but throwing out short posts with "period" at the end does nothing to encourage discussion and has actually added nothing in this case cause I haven't an actual clue what you mean!

Samaris · 06-03-2017 07:51AM

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Very upsetting read. That article paints such a vividly grim picture. As an Irishman proud of our history and fight for independence I'm ashamed of these goings on that happened in the decades after. We got rid of British rule only to slide seamlessly into radical fundamentalist Catholicism promoted by the state. Its left me questioning my pride.

It's not unusual. We're not exceptional in this regard, albeit maybe a tad unusual to go the religion route. Countries that are not used to running themselves that suddenly win independence and have to now rule themselves almost always have a rough time of it for a century or more. Look at the various African countries after the British (and other colonialists) pulled out. Many of them are, to put it bluntly, basket-cases. Now, I sincerely doubt it's because African countries -can't- run themselves (although that was the view of the colonialist countries for a bit!), but more likely it's because there's a sudden change-over and the people who take it on have relatively little experience. The US relied heavily on ex-British methods and even they had a protracted civil war (actually, we did much the same thing). It's very easy for self-serving assholes that sound good to take over. Equally, it's also easy for a religion to muscle in and offer to help out with education, medicine, etcetera. The religious set-up is more experienced, knows how to quietly slurp up powers, and gradually gets a stranglehold.

In a way, it's harder to get out from under, as there's a clear succession. The religious authority continues with no break. At least every time a tinpot dictator dies, there's an opportunity to get someone half-decent in, and then someone better after him, etcetera.

In short, yeah, we've got something to collectively be ashamed of and we need to face up to it and prevent anything like it happening again. But we're far from unique on this front.

AtomicHorror · 06-03-2017 08:01AM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

It is Not RELIGION That is EVIL its Man And Women Who is Evil

It's not enough to point at the immorality of the people who exploited a religion and use that to excuse religion.

Religion seeks to convince people that they must abandon skepticism and empiricism and have faith in the church and god. It is a system, so it doesn't have an innate morality to it. So sure, it's not "evil", but it is a terrible idea that could only be implemented by someone seriously deluded or who wants to control others. Others who the controller sees as unworthy of their own agency.

Religion is not immoral, but the creation of- or promotion of- religion is immoral.

BlinkingLights · 06-03-2017 08:58AM

There was an absolute attempt here to turn the Republic of Ireland into "Holy Catholic Ireland" and grab the national identity though social engineering.

If you compare the proclamation of independence and the preamble of the 1937 constitution you see exactly the journey Ireland went through over the early years of the state.

What went on here was a very sinister power grab and I think we need to recognise it as such and stop just allowing modern state services like education to still have excessive church control. It shouldn't be possible for example to have a child excluded from the local national schools based on religious basis, yet that happens due to "our religion first" enrolment policies.

I also worry that the assylum seekers in direct provision are far, far too shut away in institutional like settings run by private companies. We need a hell of a lot more transparency there to ensure no issues arise. It has all the risk factors of previous disastrous situations.

It's long overdue though that we actually start to behave like a country with genuinely positive republican values and not just one that thinks Republic = "not a monarchy"

Even things like people changing the flag colours from green white and orange (as per the constitution) to green white and gold trying to cozy up to the Vatican gold flag is just a bit weird and creepy.

I've also seen very strange things here like the army guarding relics! That's highly inappropriate use of states resources and yet more religious state corporatism.

Bear in mind too we didn't form a Republic until the 1940s, so a lot of the early revolutionary language and ideals were lost.

It would have been nice if we had reaffirmed being an actual Republic on the 1916 anniversary by actually editing the constitution and looking towards actual division between church and state and removing a lot of the 1930s religiosity.

smurgen · 06-03-2017 09:27AM

The church needs to be fully removed from any management of any of the states functions.they have shown themselves to be unable to manage effectively and at worst been actively invovled in crimes against the citizens.the tax break for the church should be looked at as I don't want my hard earned money going towards subsidising the lifestyles and business of those with twisted belief systems.by all means practice your faith behind close door but keep it out of my face and do it with your own funding.

elefant · 06-03-2017 10:01AM

It's really an incredible situation.

An organisation that has been so strongly, and undeniably, linked with decades of paedophilia and child neglect runs 90% of primary schools in the Republic of Ireland.

Imagine if that was any organisation other than a religion. It's so... utterly fcking disheartening.

lazygal · 06-03-2017 10:09AM

elefant wrote: »

It's really an incredible situation.

An organisation that has been so strongly, and undeniably, linked with decades of paedophilia and child neglect runs 90% of primary schools in the Republic of Ireland.

Imagine if that was any organisation other than a religion. It's so... utterly fcking disheartening.

What's even more mindblowing is the fact that parents still baptise their kids and push them through communion and confirmation because of the horror of their children being 'left out' in school. Why parents make excuses to themselves that they're baptising to get into schools or to appease grandparents is not reasonable. If one generation of parents stopped going along with this, it would stop. If schools had no catholics applying for places, change would be swift. The catholic church would shut up shop when it realised there was no more money to be made here and move onto other countries.

BlinkingLights · 06-03-2017 10:13AM

Well, it still has a grip over the population precisely because of that.
From age 4 to age 18 at least 90% of us are being spoon fed this stuff 6 hours a day 185 days a year.

It's been toned down a bit but it's still a huge part of the Irish state experience.

Also I think a lot of people here born before about 1975, genuinely seem to still think education can be summarised as a nun with a big stick.

I've also noticed there's very little ability to distinguish education from religious instruction here precisely because of this history.

lazygal · 06-03-2017 10:16AM

The new catholic indoctrination programme Grow In Love is really full on. Not at all as benign as some parents might think.

06-03-2017 10:20AM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

Well, it still has a grip over the population precisely because of that.
From age 4 to age 18 at least 90% of us are being spoon fed this stuff 6 hours a day 185 days a year...

I have to say that I remember little enough religious influence in school. The odd Mass or retreat, remember one teacher who would say a prayer before class alright, but far from spoon fed 6 hours a day. And the little influence we got didn't grip us that much...most of my former class mates ended up as sceptics, non believers, not going to Mass etc.

BlinkingLights · 06-03-2017 10:20AM

What gets me every time is you think you're talking to a reasonable person then they come out with a clanger like "oh! Would ya not baptise her. She'll miss out on her first holy communion and the big dress and will feel really excluded"

Or my mother who is a totally non practising, pro choice 60 something year old got her nose out of joint because I defected from the catholic church - she never once brought me to mass, she never prays, has no religios stuff anywhere in her house, thinks it's all nonsense etc etc she hasn't been inside a church other than for a wedding or funeral since the 1970, but apparently I'd "thrown away a family tradition". Even though half grandparents weren't religious at all...

Clearly there was some family tradition of pretending to be Catholic if anyone asked! It's not even a la carte, it's just like keeping membership or a golf club and actually detesting golf....

Also my grandmother was an athiest and quite militantly so. She died and had an non religious funeral and the number of people who attempted to add a priest to it was actually really incredible. The last thing she would have ever wanted and she left very specific instructions that it should not be done on pain of being haunted!
It ended up being a very nice and moving event where people just stood up and talked about her and we played some music and read some poems but the sheer cheek of several totally unconnected people who tried to "fix" it was just shocking. I'm still annoyed several years later.

Oddly enough a nun she knew came along, paid respects, spoke about her and read a poem and was utterly respectful of her wishes and the undertaker etc was totally accommodating. No issues from officialdom or the church, hospitals etc etc ... Just busybody neighbours !!

Ireland and religion is still a bit screwed up. There are some very odd attitudes still and you can see exactly how it would have been a million times worse in the 50s

lazygal · 06-03-2017 10:22AM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

What gets me every time is you think you're talking to a reasonable person then they come out with a clanger like "oh! Would ya not baptise her. She'll miss out on her first holy communion and the big dress and will feel really excluded"

Or my mother who is a totally non practising, pro choice 60 something year old got her nose out of joint because I defected from the catholic church - she never once brought me to mass, she never prays, she hasn't been inside a church other than for a wedding or funeral since the 1970s but apparently I'd "thrown away a family tradition".

Ireland and religion is still a bit screwed up.

We are in a total minority not baptising our children.
Most of our friends use the same excuses about school places (which doesn't explain why they go ahead with communion and confirmation afterwards), grandparents applying pressure, just thinking it's the done thing-it's only in the case of one couple that it was for genuine religious reasons.

osarusan · 06-03-2017 10:27AM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

From age 4 to age 18 at least 90% of us are being spoon fed this stuff 6 hours a day 185 days a year.

No we aren't. There's no point exaggerating.

When I was in school, religion was one class a week and it didn't creep its way into other classes either. I left school without any belief in religion.

My never-baptised kids are not part of religion classes at their local National School. I said to the teachers and they accepted it instantly.

....... · 06-03-2017 10:31AM

This post has been deleted.

whisky_galore · 06-03-2017 10:33AM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Former Nazis are still being prosecuted, from the 40's. The home closed in the 60's some of those responsible for the running and operation of these homes are still alive. Age should not be an immunity for their actions.

Our legal system is more 'arra shur God love them' rather than Simon Wiesenthal-esque root them out of their nursing homes and put them on trial.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 10:33AM

Cabaal wrote: »

The dogs on the street knew of it in Tuam, he knew as well. He just choose to ignore it.

For once think of how refreshing it would be for a Bishop to spearhead an investigation or digging.

But no, this won't happen because they are scared of what they'll find and all they want to do is protect the church. They hope the longer they wait the more victims will be dead.

OK which Bishop please? Name him?

The current bishop, Brendan Leahy , was appointed in 2013.

Things are bad enough without distortion. I do not envy any Bishop in this mess

osarusan · 06-03-2017 10:34AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

In a religious orders school.

The post I responded to said 90% of school-age children in Ireland. It's is nowhere near that.

pilly · 06-03-2017 10:37AM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Very much depends on the school so. Your routine wouldn't be the norm in any school I know.

elefant · 06-03-2017 10:38AM

osarusan wrote: »

No we aren't. There's no point exaggerating.

When I was in school, religion was one class a week and it didn't creep its way into other classes either. I left school without any belief in religion.

My never-baptised kids are not part of religion classes at their local National School. I said to the teachers and they accepted it instantly.

I would say most of my class from primary school are not religious now.

But in my primary school we did have daily prayers (like Grace Before Meals at lunch time) and we spent weeks preparing for first confession, first communion and confirmation in the relevant years. I can remember the parish priest being in to speak with the class on occasions too, and various altar-boys missing hours of school each weekday to attend morning mass or weddings.

That's all a bit beside the point though. My initial issue is just on how the Church, regardless of how much or how little they can influence children religiously through schools, is still in a position of such influence over Irish youths at all considering what they have done to children in the country in the past.

I despair for how the Irish education system can continue to progress, when we can't even progress beyond 90% of primary schools (http://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Diversity-of-Patronage/) being run by an organisation with such a horrific track record.

whisky_galore · 06-03-2017 10:42AM

Going Forward wrote: »

Faith is a strange thing. And so is oppression.

An interesting mix for an uneducated, isolated, backward people.

The eternal reward made sense of the daily grind, and hardships were sacrifices.

Yes.

The mindset of my elderly mother is that this world is a 'valley of tears' and death is some sort of a release.

Rather than enjoying life in retirement she wishes for death and 'eternal reward', there must be thousands of elderly people who feel the same way, it really is an utterly depressing way to live.
I really can't stay at home any more than a day or two as it's spirit-sapping toxic stuff and every argument is always sparked off by religion. She ignores each and every revelation about the past that has come to light in recent years or goes about in her own little world pretending it didn't happen.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 10:44AM

neonsofa wrote: »

Grace it would be a lot more beneficial if you actually explained what you meant in your posts, if you believe someone is saying something that is incorrect maybe try and inform them why, rather than throwing out random sentences that quite frankly don't make sense. I'd be willing to hear your opinion on the above but throwing out short posts with "period" at the end does nothing to encourage discussion and has actually added nothing in this case cause I haven't an actual clue what you mean!

I did explain re priestly and monastic celibacy earlier.

It is not suppression or repression and in fact has nothing to do with sex or sexuality.

If a woman finds a vocation to become a Nun? Then she is choosing to .. divert.. all her energies, all her gifts, all her skills into that life.

The time and yes energy others put into getting married, having children, all the usual family things, is freed to serve others.

In prayer in an enclosed order, and working there for the life of the order, serving the older sisters, in active orders serving the needy in their care.

If they had family less time and less of everything. Part time ve full time

Almost in tears typing this as of course here it was abused and went badly wrong.

It origin it is not a repression but a deliberate chosen sublimation and diversion of strength. And in good orders and in the beginning it is very carefully trained and nurtured. A beautiful thing.

And chosen by God.

We are far more than sexual beings.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 10:47AM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

There was an absolute attempt here to turn the Republic of Ireland into "Holy Catholic Ireland" and grab the national identity though social engineering.

If you compare the proclamation of independence and the preamble of the 1937 constitution you see exactly the journey Ireland went through over the early years of the state.

What went on here was a very sinister power grab and I think we need to recognise it as such and stop just allowing modern state services like education to still have excessive church control. It shouldn't be possible for example to have a child excluded from the local national schools based on religious basis, yet that happens due to "our religion first" enrolment policies.

I also worry that the assylum seekers in direct provision are far, far too shut away in institutional like settings run by private companies. We need a hell of a lot more transparency there to ensure no issues arise. It has all the risk factors of previous disastrous situations.

It's long overdue though that we actually start to behave like a country with genuinely positive republican values and not just one that thinks Republic = "not a monarchy"

Even things like people changing the flag colours from green white and orange (as per the constitution) to green white and gold trying to cozy up to the Vatican gold flag is just a bit weird and creepy.

I've also seen very strange things here like the army guarding relics! That's highly inappropriate use of states resources and yet more religious state corporatism.

Bear in mind too we didn't form a Republic until the 1940s, so a lot of the early revolutionary language and ideals were lost.

It would have been nice if we had reaffirmed being an actual Republic on the 1916 anniversary by actually editing the constitution and looking towards actual division between church and state and removing a lot of the 1930s religiosity.

It started after the Famine in fact. Look up Paul cardinal Cullen and the plan to take over Ireland then. Vatican policy.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 10:50AM

elefant wrote: »

It's really an incredible situation.

An organisation that has been so strongly, and undeniably, linked with decades of paedophilia and child neglect runs 90% of primary schools in the Republic of Ireland.

Imagine if that was any organisation other than a religion. It's so... utterly fcking disheartening.

It is also the organisation that skilfully set up the health system and the educational system which have failed sadly since their demise.

They took Ireland from hedge schools to education for all.
It was a truly wonderful achievement and I mean that.

And look at eg the Scout movement and child abuse.

Not a black and white situation.

osarusan · 06-03-2017 10:53AM

elefant wrote: »

That's all a bit beside the point though. My initial issue is just on how the Church, regardless of how much or how little they can influence children religiously through schools, is still in a position of such influence over Irish youths at all considering what they have done to children in the country the past.

I agree with all this, and have said many times that the church and the state should be uncoupled in every aspect.

But I think we can talk about that without exaggerating about 90%+ of primary and secondary school children being spoonfed religion 6 hours a day. That simply isn't true.

And I think we can talk the horrific situation in Tuam and other disgraceful behaviour by the church without needing to exaggerate their current influence.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 10:53AM

lazygal wrote: »

What's even more mindblowing is the fact that parents still baptise their kids and push them through communion and confirmation because of the horror of their children being 'left out' in school. Why parents make excuses to themselves that they're baptising to get into schools or to appease grandparents is not reasonable. If one generation of parents stopped going along with this, it would stop. If schools had no catholics applying for places, change would be swift. The catholic church would shut up shop when it realised there was no more money to be made here and move onto other countries.

Many truly beleive.My former landlord is a man of deep faith. He has 4 little ones. He worked hard to stop the local tiny catholic rural school from closing; and that is his free choice from his belief and faith and I applaud iti And I know many other such.

Graces7 · 06-03-2017 10:55AM

The avalanche has started..

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/coalition-of-mother-and-baby-home-survivors-up-to-7000-babies-buried-across-the-country-780175.html

neonsofa · 06-03-2017 11:03AM

Graces7 wrote: »

I did explain re priestly and monastic celibacy earlier.

It is not suppression or repression and in fact has nothing to do with sex or sexuality.

If a woman finds a vocation to become a Nun? Then she is choosing to .. divert.. all her energies, all her gifts, all her skills into that life.

The time and yes energy others put into getting married, having children, all the usual family things, is freed to serve others.

In prayer in an enclosed order, and working there for the life of the order, serving the older sisters, in active orders serving the needy in their care.

If they had family less time and less of everything. Part time ve full time

Almost in tears typing this as of course here it was abused and went badly wrong.

It origin it is not a repression but a deliberate chosen sublimation and diversion of strength. And in good orders and in the beginning it is very carefully trained and nurtured. A beautiful thing.

And chosen by God.

We are far more than sexual beings.

I appreciate you taking the time to clarify. I understand what you mean now, I think. And I understand that celibacy is moreso the vow to dedicate your life to the cause rather than a family/partner etc. and it is not simply just a vow to abstain from having sex. But surely you can also understand that even with those lovely intentions to dedicate your life to the cause, if you choose/are told to be celibate, there is a suppression of sexual urges if/when they do arise? No matter how dedicated one is, it is a natural urge, an urge instilled in us by God himself (according to the Catholic teaching), and what are they to do when this urge arises, if they are not suppressing it?

jimgoose · 06-03-2017 11:03AM

Graces7 wrote: »

The avalanche has started..

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/coalition-of-mother-and-baby-home-survivors-up-to-7000-babies-buried-across-the-country-780175.html

Bloody Hell! This is starting to put me in mind of Auschwitz or Dachau in 1945! :eek:

archer22 · 06-03-2017 11:03AM

Fleawuss wrote: »

Extraordinary version of history. The defeated Gaelic clans remained RC after the Refofmation while the invader largely became the Protestant. Religion and identity became synonymous. But the dogmas and morals of the RC church weren't formulated among the Irish clans. The Augustinian version of human sexuality and the Thomist philosophy did not originate in Ireland. I mention these specifically to help you identify the roots of the problem in independent Ireland: a twisted view of human sexuality and a propensity for linguistic gymnastics among the hierarchy with mental reservations. Take s bow Connell.

What alternative religions could Irish people turn to? Baptized at birth, educated in RC schools, under the ne temere decree on mixed marriages. You have some imaginary view that poor people had some choice. Choice is a Recent thing in Ireland and bitterly opposed by the remnants of the organization that have poisoned this country. Stop the obfuscation and just face the truth: the RC church created the poisonous situation we have in Tuam. It's twisted sexuality, its dominance even of state bodies and the police. It's past time to have it slide off the page of history.

You are the one who needs to face reality.The reason the Protestant religion came into being in the first place was in response to the corruption and hypocrisy in the Catholic Church.
And as for the poor defeated Irish couldn't do anything but accept the Catholic Church...utter nonsense!!.
They had the support of the government of the day and its army if they wanted it taken off their backs..and many did take the opportunity and converted to Protestantism...as did almost all the" defeated Gaelic clans" of Scotland and Wales.
Also the Church controlled Southern Ireland until the 1990s until their power was finally broken when people simply stopped supporting and facilitating them.
Same as they could have done at any stage over the previous 1500 years.

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Comments