Louise O Neill on rape culture.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I don't think the onus was on me. I think the onus was on him not to make crude leery remarks, to his son's friend, 35 years his junior, who was working with his son in a professional capacity.
These kinds of men dont tend to be the most reasonable of men, he was physically large, overweight, an alcoholic, and I hated being around him.
I said a few things to him, like 'Im the same age as your son!' But I wasn't confident enough at the time to say more. I dont see it as my fault, I see it as his fault, and the same to any woman in that situation. It is that persons fault, not your fault.

I am not placing blame, just asking if you told him how he was making you feel. He may not have known.

But if you're saying rape culture exists, in which case the man's comments are a reflection of said culture, then how are they going to learn it is not ok unless people tell them? If it is culturally accepted as you say, surely he does not realise he is wrong?

Ok, the following quotes are taken from BRIDGINGTHEGAP. I don't know how to quote sections of a person's post on here so I'm just going to have to copy and paste these sections and present them with inverted commas and address each one. I feel like the majority of your post has been competently addressed and refuted by other posters so I am just going to try and address a few sections which stood out to me. So this is for you BRIDGINGTHEGAP.

''Essentially, both sides are talking about two different things and the people that commonly complain that the current wave of feminism are creating echo chambers for themselves are in fact, doing the very same thing. This thread is an example of that. While there are some posters that seem to open to hearing all sides, it seems like most aren’t really listening. Sure, they are willing to read what is presented to them but aren’t allowing themselves to switch off their preconceptions and take any opportunity to roll their eyes and assume a position ofintellectual superiority.''

You must not have read this thread very carefully. If you had, you would have noticed that anytime a poster comes on here trying to make a case for the existence of RAPE CULTURE, he or she is challenged immediately. What has happened to you is proof of this. That is not the behaviour of people who only want to engage with people who have the same ideology and opinions. It is the behaviour of people who want to challenge opposite beliefs and hear the strongest arguments possible against their own position. Instead of trying to put our fingers in our ears when we hear a dissident voice, we are only too happy to engage with the arguments like we have done with yours. And I think you have found that your arguments have for the most part been taken very seriously and given due respect. Nobody, from what I have seen, just shouted you down and more or less resorted to ad hom attacks that could be paraphrased as 'shut up
feminist, you haven't a clue what you're talking about'. Your post was dissected very rigourously and studiously by a number of posters here which proves that your assessment that the posters here are creating echo chambers for themselves is false. From my experience, it is the feminists who advocate Rape Culture who run away from debate whenever their views are being pressed! However, I do admire and appreciate that you are willing to put your neck on the line and argue your case though and I hope that the discussion will remain respectful!

''It means that the act of rape does not happen in a vacuum. Everything that surrounds us, socially and culturally influence who we are as people. Dots have been connected between things that happen in every day life and rape. Harassment, gender norms, sexual objectification (both in the media and on an individual level) are a selection of things that remain present in our society.''


The problem here is that you are putting the philosophical cart before the horse here! No effect occurs without a cause , for sure. But you can't cite causes as if they are the EFFECT! For example, a heroin addict may site his/her introduction to cannabis as the ultimate cause of his/her heroin use. After all, it is not called a gateway drug for nothing! But does that mean that when we observe examples of widespread cannabis use in a society that we are now entitled to propose a HEROIN CULTURE diagnosis for that culture! That's pretty preposterous, right? You have to check to see if the HEROIN CULTURE actually exists. Is heroin use normalised, widespread and an integral part of the general way of life of the majority of people in given society or not? If not, then we are not entitled to cite the existence of widespread cannabis as an example of 'heroin culture'. We can call it a cannabis culture but not a heroin culture.

What feminists seem to be doing is citing all instances of sexism that occur in society as if they are EXAMPLES of RAPE CULTURE.

They are basically making the bizarre and completely illogical proposition that the cause and the effect are the same thing! And anyway, even if we were to be forgiving of this complete LOGIC FAIL, at the very least, for the occurances that feminists cite as examples of rape culture to hold any weight, they have to demonstrate that these CAUSES INEVITABLY lead to Rape Culture.

BRIDGINGTHEGAP QUOTE: ''The concept of us living in a “rape culture” is not focusing on the act of rape itself, but on these behaviours and systems that are in place and can play even the smallest part in making someone capable of committing acts of sexual violence on someone else.''

Here is a similar argument : the concept of us living in a ''heroin culture'' is not focused on the act of using heroin itself but on the behaviours and systems that are in place and can play even the smallest part in making someone capable of heroin use. We live in a ''drinking culture'. Alcohol is a widely used drug in Irelnd. If you don't drink , you are the exception to the rule so therefore by definition we are obliged to concede that we live in a drinking culture. Now , alcohol is also known as a gateway drug to harder drugs such as Heroin. So because alcohol is so widely used in the country can we then conclude that we live in a HEROIN CULTURE!?? You see the problem here??
Confusion of the principle of cause and effect again! You cannot present cause AS IF IT IS effect!

Ok I am going to deal with two of your quotes now and explain to you why there is such strong rejection of the proposition of RAPE CULTURE.

''The prevalence of focusing on lexical and literal definitions is an outdated and misinformed approach'' and ''It is completely understandable that this makes people uncomfortable. It should. It makes the people that recognise its existence uncomfortable too. The difference arises when those in opposition, more often than not, opt to indulge in denial and rejection of the concept instead of fighting through the discomfort to try to gain a greater understanding how this concept has come to exist, and potentially then being able to admit that it is indeed a reality.''

What makes people uncomfortable is INTELLECTUAL DISHONESTY! People deny the concept because it is incoherent and hyperbolic! But I am going to demonstrate to you exactly why it is DANGEROUS not to play by definitional rules :

Consider this proposition : WE LIVE IN A FALSE RAPE ACCUSATION CULTURE!

Now, I am as appalled by that proposition as you are I'm sure! But watch me evidence 'FALSE RAPE ACCUSATION CULTURE' using the exact same strategy that the feminist does when trying to evidence RAPE CULTURE.

Here is the case : 'no, don't take the proposition literally because that's an outdated way to determine the truth or falsity of the proposition. Just grant my definition 'SPECIAL PRIVILEGE' please! False Rape ACCUSATION CULTURE means that the act of FALSE RAAPE ACCUSATION does not happen in a vacuum. The concept of us living in a “ false rape accusation culture” is not focusing on the act of falsely accusing someone of rape itself, but on these behaviours and systems that are in place and can play even the smallest part in making someone capable of committing such an act.''

Now, these are words more or less taken from your own post! But when the shoe is on the other foot can you not see how insulting and dishonest a form of argumentation this is?? It says nothing about whether 'false rape accusations' are common and normalised in society at all which is what (whether you're willing to admit it or not) the phrase' false rape acuusation culture' implies! Do you think that it is fair that I demand that you to grant my defintion of 'false rape accusation culture' special privilege??


Ok let's talk specifically about these behaviours and systems that can play a part in making someone capable of falsely accusing someone of rape. 1) A mother telling her daughter to watch her drink in the club at all times is an example of false rape accusation culture. 2 ) The walk of shame after a one night stand is an example of false rape accusation culture! 3) Infidelity not been taken seriously by some people is an example of false rape accusation cuture 4) Advocacy of Rape Culture in Gender Studies courses is an example of False Rape Accusation Culture. Yes, I am committing the favourite feminist fallacy of presenting CAUSE AS EFFECT but heck , who cares.... we don't have to follow definitional or logical rules when making an argument because that stuff is all outdated!!

Now, It is so easy for me to see how insulting, preposterous and most of all dangerous what I have just said sounds! First of all, none of these things demonstrate that there are ACTUALLY lots of false rape accusations occuring in society! What I have cited are causes not effects. These Causes are irrelevant to the discussion until you can actually show that the effect that is 'false rape accusation culture' actually exists. I'm also not suggesting that these are actually plausible causes of 'false rape accusation culture' - they're preposterous. However, they are at least more plausible than a lot of the examples that feminists cite for rape culture because at least , in my citations one can derive some kind of motive from them.

Now, I am going to ask you to please be honest when answering this question : do you not agree that I am engaged in a bull**** argument there?? Despite using the exact same tactics of argumentation that feminists use with Rape Culture, surely when the shoe is on the other foot, you can see how dishonest it seems to use these tactics!!

As someone who has bee a victim of sexual assault, wouldnt you demand that the advocates of this disgraceful 'FRAC' ideology better be open to scrutiny and most importantly, they better be definitionally consisent, avoid logical fallacies and be completely intellectually honest while making their case?? The stakes are too high not to demand that they do this!

Thankfully, in any case, the highly offensive claim that we live in a  'False Rape Accusation Culture' can be debunked with one simple logical argument  : most women or men don't even claim to have been raped so the idea that we live in a culture rife with false rape accusations is illogical and patently false if we are to obey logical and definitional rules! Unfortunately, for the TWF, a similar type of argument exists against the claim that we live in a 'Rape Culture' that is just as valid but for some strange reason the feminist doesnt consider this a reasonable way to try and debunk their proposition! I wonder why!!!!

Now, I am not saying that Rape and sexual assault don't exist!The reason that I take this agument seriously is because I abhore rape so much. I am still very much open to the possibility that rape occurs more often than we are aware and that it is an issue worth taking very seriously and that there are fine lines that we need to talk about openly in public discourse with regards to what sort of behaviour violates a person's sexual autonomy and not just get fixated on this notion of rape...I dont take the subject matter lightly at all. However, I think 'rape culture' is divisive hyperbole which is proving to be detrimental to the cause of rape victims. And just don't understand why they dont just change their catchphrase from 'RAPE CULTURE' to 'RAPE PROBLEM'? Would save a lot of argumentation and confusion over definitions, right? Surely, it would be a more reasonable starting point for making their argument! But the feminists can't do this because they desperately need to pedal an ideology that paints in no uncertain terms that 'men are not to be trusted'! It's a pity because if they actually approached it in a less dramatic, aggressive and more reasonable manner and said something like ' rape occurrs more often than people think and we have statistics and case studies to prove this and we just want people to become more aware and to help us find solutions of how to tackle the situation', people would be more receptive to this very important cause.

Widdershins wrote: »

It's not culturally acceptable, which is why Midlandsmissus knew it was wrong, exceptionally wrong. HE did not care, because he was a prime ********, from her description. Or he was too drink addled to care.

The other point is that he's the odd one out, like lecherous old gits always are. They're not the norm here, they're the exception that people talk about disparagingly, warn their friends and girlfriends about, tolerate if they must, but keep an eye on them when they're nearby. If Midlandsmissus had wanted to she could have pursued it under sexual harassment laws. The reason we have such laws, imperfect though they are, just as most laws are, is because it's NOT culturally acceptable to pester women for sex. Because we don't have a rape culture!

100% agree. But if that poster believes it does exist then surely the only way to change this culture is to inform the individual people making the comments that it is not acceptable. Educating people when they make these comments. Surely by not speaking up at the time, it is just exasperating the issue; by allowing the comments to go unchallenged are they themselves not just contributing to that culture where it is accepted?

So, if one does believe a rape culture exists, rather than advocating for consent classes for all men and blaming straight white men for the existence of this rape culture we should be encouraging women to stop being a passive victim in these types of scenarios and to learn to speak up against this type of thing as and when it happens. I absolutely know how difficult that can be, I do. But we should be empowering women to speak up to the individual men/women who are behaving in such a way and not be encouraging them to make sweeping generalisations about all men and rape culture. Especially if you truly believe rape culture exists; because if the comments/ behaviour remains unchallenged by the woman, then the woman has a part to play in creating an environment in which the behaviour is normalised, which is what they are saying rape culture is, no?

There's posts disappearing off this thread. Are mods deleting them, without explanation?

Widdershins wrote: »

That makes perfect sense to me. It would be much better than coming away from the bad experience with the impression that this kind of thing is common and acceptable to many. There have been a few times in my life when I've wondered why I didn't say anything to the person who'd said something unpleasant to me, so I can sympathise with anyone who didn't, when maybe they should have. But usually after those experiences I can also see that they're not usually representative of a group.

And that's reasonable and natural. To think why didn't I stand up for myself. And like you say, you can accept that the person was just your regular ol' creep, not a symptom of rape culture. But rather than do this and maybe work on their own self confidence and assertiveness going forward, people like LON are blaming some kind of rape culture, which if it did exist, is only being perpetuated by them and other women not challenging it whenever they are faced with the behaviour. Yet they only target and blame men when discussing it.

(Btw I'm obviously not talking about situations whereby the woman feels physically threatened, I'm talking about cases like the previous poster mentioned or where the sleazy older man is making inappropriate comments at a family function.)

Anyone else read the piece in the Guardian entitled 'EPIDEMIC of sex harrassment in universities'??

Ok, seriously, what the actual f*ck is up with this.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/michael-harding-learning-late-in-life-to-listen-to-women-1.2992196

The IT's gynocentric propaganda has now jumped the shark entirely. In fact, if you think about it, this article is downright creepy in that it promotes eavesdropping on people's private conversations, but I guess that's ok if you learn a grand and humbling lesson about how much of a male gobsh!te you are, that's perfectly fine?

What. The. F*ck.

Awaiting an article from a woman who learns the error of her ways in how she has unfairly treated men in her life, aaaaaaaaaaany day now...

I love the MMA Ireland response



"mentors" jaysus

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Ok, seriously, what the actual f*ck is up with this.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/michael-harding-learning-late-in-life-to-listen-to-women-1.2992196...

What a simpering twit.

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

...So LoN is pulling a madonna and calling for terrorist acts and burning of property-ya know, cos 'feminism'....

I'm gonna say it over and over-she needs to get help.

Which "rights" exactly is she supposed to be missing, does anyone know?