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Clear majority of Europeans want a total ban on Muslim immigration

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    #92
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,262 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    One quarter is a big chunk and I don't think it should be brushed aside as if it's meaningless.

    I didn't. However, it is a minority of what is already a minority demographic.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #93
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    There's a widespread intolerance for homosexuality in the US, but nobody's suggesting a blanket ban on American immigration.

    I mean look up the rankings for countries with worst treatment of women, majority of them are muslim countries, same for gay rights. I just dont understand why the liberal left are so up for leaving in so many Muslims who by nature are ultra conservative.


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    #94
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I mean look up the rankings for countries with worst treatment of women, majority of them are muslim countries, same for gay rights. I just dont understand why the liberal left are so up for leaving in so many Muslims who by nature are ultra conservative.

    How hard are you trying to understand?

    Banning all Muslims because some Muslims are religious conservatives makes no sense, unless you're going to argue for deporting our home-grown religious conservatives as well.


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    #95
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    How hard are you trying to understand?

    Banning all Muslims because some Muslims are religious conservatives makes no sense, unless you're going to argue for deporting our home-grown religious conservatives as well.

    Where would you suggest we can deport our homegrown religious conservatives to?

    I dont believe multi culturalism works tbh, I dont think thousands of Irish people going over to Saudi would work very well and I also dont think thousands of muslims coming to Ireland works very well either. Very different cultures.


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    #96
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    How hard are you trying to understand?

    Banning all Muslims because some Muslims are religious conservatives makes no sense, unless you're going to argue for deporting our home-grown religious conservatives as well.

    Whatever happened to keeping the world safe from intolerant terrorists be they White Supremacists or Muslim Brotherhood sympathizers. Don't see much difference to be honest. Europe has to control borders and allowing us to be dictated by non-Europeans be they Americans, Muslim Arabs or the Chinese is not my idea of respecting diversity. It is caving in to extremists.


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    #97
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Where would you suggest we can deport our homegrown religious conservatives to?
    I don't propose that we do, but then I'm not the one objecting to allowing religious conservatives into the country.
    I dont believe multi culturalism works tbh, I dont think thousands of Irish people going over to Saudi would work very well and I also dont think thousands of muslims coming to Ireland works very well either. Very different cultures.
    Have you ever been to Dubai? Or Turkey?

    The idea that multiculturalism doesn't work is a strange one. It's basically saying "I'm only happy when I'm surrounded by people who think exactly the same way I do"; it's basically an argument for ghettoisation on a global scale.

    I've never seen a rational argument against multiculturalism. It's either "I don't think it can work", which is an expression of belief - which, by its nature, doesn't require evidence - or a catalogue of problems allegedly caused by multiculturalism but which on closer inspection are caused by a rejection of other cultures.


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    #98
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Whatever happened to keeping the world safe from intolerant terrorists be they White Supremacists or Muslim Brotherhood sympathizers.
    I don't know. What happened to it?
    Europe has to control borders...
    Europe does control its borders. If your argument is based on the fiction that Europe doesn't control its borders, then your argument is inherently bogus.
    ...and allowing us to be dictated by non-Europeans be they Americans, Muslim Arabs or the Chinese is not my idea of respecting diversity.
    When someone proposes "allowing us to be dictated by non-Europeans" (whatever the hell that phrase even means, because I can't parse it), come back to me.


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    #99
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't know. What happened to it? Europe does control its borders. If your argument is based on the fiction that Europe doesn't control its borders, then your argument is inherently bogus. When someone proposes "allowing us to be dictated by non-Europeans" (whatever the hell that phrase even means, because I can't parse it), come back to me.

    We don't control our borders. Libyan smugglers bring boatloads of migrants across the Mediterranean and then they vanish into the continent. The incident at Christmas of the terrorist leaving Germany traveling through France and getting killed by Italian police is a case in point. The Schengen Zone was never designed to accommodate the refugees that are being invited into Europe at the behest of America. None of the East Europeans want to have large scale immigration yet to say we need better policies to combat the smuggling you get accused of being a Russiaphile and wanting to destroy Europe.


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    #100
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭weisses


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Have you ever been to Dubai? Or Turkey?
    From wiki about the UAE
    The importation and sale of religious material is allowed; however, attempts to spread Christianity among Muslims are not permitted.
    The government does not permit churches to display crosses on the outside of their premises or to erect bell towers.[4] Christian men are not allowed to marry Muslim women.[4][8] Conversion from Islam is not permitted.[4][8]

    So how can Multiculturalism work int the UAE with restriction in place like I pointed out in the above quote?

    Leaving that fact aside .. Do you think there would be an incentive for say 450. 000 Christians to integrate in Dubai when they can live together in their own neighborhoods? basically living the life they would have in any given European city? .. keeping in mind that one day in the not so far future they would be going home with a lot of cash

    (figure is relative to the roughly 15% Muslim migrants in The Hague)
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The idea that multiculturalism doesn't work is a strange one. It's basically saying "I'm only happy when I'm surrounded by people who think exactly the same way I do"; it's basically an argument for ghettoisation on a global scale.

    The part in bold is the most ridiculous thing I have read so far in explaining why Multiculturalism has failed and is failing ... There are ghetto's in many cities across the mainland I was born in one where in 2014 the ISIS flag was waved proudly (the hague)
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I've never seen a rational argument against multiculturalism. It's either "I don't think it can work", which is an expression of belief - which, by its nature, doesn't require evidence - or a catalogue of problems allegedly caused by multiculturalism but which on closer inspection are caused by a rejection of other cultures.

    No rational argument ? try this one: The dutch appointed a minister (Vogelaar) to deal with the same issues you are describing as irrational, she failed partly because she couldn't call a spade a spade, For decades governments in the west are looking away from the huge problems regarding integration from people with different cultures/religions ... It is a FACT

    Wouter Bos Dutch labor leader and Minister as well had this to say
    Commenting on the resignation, Bos said that despite all her efforts, Vogelaar ‘found herself in a situation where she was unable to give effective leadership and drive through solutions for one of the biggest questions facing Dutch society: how do we ensure that people with different cultures, religions and ethnic backgrounds can live together peacefully?’

    http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/11/integration_minister_vogelaar/


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    #101
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    weisses wrote: »
    So how can Multiculturalism work int the UAE with restriction in place like I pointed out in the above quote?
    Wow, did you motorise those goalposts?

    It was claimed that thousands of Irish people couldn't move to Saudi, which itself is the sort of pathetic argument from the extremes that betrays its own weakness ("if multiculturalism isn't possible in Saudi Arabia, it can therefore be logically argued that it's not possible anywhere" - give me a frigging break).

    In response, I pointed out that there are majority-Muslim countries where westerners do, in fact, move in their thousands. And then, as if by magic, the argument becomes that multiculturalism in Europe is impossible because Muslims don't want Christians trying to proselytise at them.
    No rational argument ? try this one: The dutch appointed a minister (Vogelaar) to deal with the same issues you are describing as irrational, she failed partly because she couldn't call a spade a spade...
    What your argument boils down to is that multiculturalism can't work as long as there are people who are opposed to it, and that therefore it shouldn't be attempted, because any attempt at it will be met with resistance, and that resistance will be used as an excuse for not trying it.

    It's a neatly circular argument, but like all circular arguments it only makes sense if you start by assuming your desired conclusion.


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    #102
    AnGaelach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Banning all Muslims because some Muslims are religious conservatives makes no sense, unless you're going to argue for deporting our home-grown religious conservatives as well.

    I don't understand why you think banning immigration is the same as deporting citizens.


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    #103
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    I don't understand why you think banning immigration is the same as deporting citizens.

    I don't. You seem to have missed my point. Try re-reading my post, with an open mind if necessary, until you have figured out what that point is.


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    #104
    Yourself isit
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,257 ✭✭✭Yourself isit


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't propose that we do, but then I'm not the one objecting to allowing religious conservatives into the country. Have you ever been to Dubai? Or Turkey?

    The idea that multiculturalism doesn't work is a strange one. It's basically saying "I'm only happy when I'm surrounded by people who think exactly the same way I do"; it's basically an argument for ghettoisation on a global scale.

    Ghettoisation is a global scale is what used to be called national sovereignty. Most countries practice that. Only in the west is it rejected and only by elites.
    I've never seen a rational argument against multiculturalism. It's either "I don't think it can work", which is an expression of belief - which, by its nature, doesn't require evidence - or a catalogue of problems allegedly caused by multiculturalism but which on closer inspection are caused by a rejection of other cultures.

    I've rarely seen a rational argument for multiculturalism (as opposed to assimilation) and in fact see opinions presented as facts (if we were rejecting other cultures then why are we letting them in?).
    .
    multiculturalism means many cultures. If you think all cultures are equal then let's allow a parallel legal system of sharia laws to exist because culture and law are entwined.


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    #105
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭weisses


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Wow, did you motorise those goalposts?

    Nope ... you brought in Dubai and Turkey, And I provided an example asking if the current situation in many European cities would work in one of the places you brought in as an example
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It was claimed that thousands of Irish people couldn't move to Saudi, which itself is the sort of pathetic argument from the extremes that betrays its own weakness ("if multiculturalism isn't possible in Saudi Arabia, it can therefore be logically argued that it's not possible anywhere" - give me a frigging break).

    I don't think thousands of Irish could move to Saudi and if they would they probably would be living in closed compounds ( ohh the joys of multiculturalism )
    Most expats find themselves living in Western compounds in Saudi Arabia (KSA). This expat housing is like living in a small self-contained holiday village (or prison, depending on your point of view). The better ones have multiple pools, restaurants, markets, and so on. Within the compounds the dress is Western, some going as far as banning any form of Saudi dress and certainly Saudis are not allowed on at all socially!

    https://wanderwisdom.com/travel-destinations/Expat-Housing-in-Saudi-Arabia
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    In response, I pointed out that there are majority-Muslim countries where westerners do, in fact, move in their thousands. And then, as if by magic, the argument becomes that multiculturalism in Europe is impossible because Muslims don't want Christians trying to proselytise at them

    Not at all ..I don't think people in the west are trying to convert Muslims to Christianity ... It is something I did not brought up in my post.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    What your argument boils down to is that multiculturalism can't work as long as there are people who are opposed to it, and that therefore it shouldn't be attempted, because any attempt at it will be met with resistance, and that resistance will be used as an excuse for not trying it.

    It is being attempted in the Netherlands since the 60's and is failing or has failed ... It got so bad they appointed a Minister to deal with these issues .. So please stop misrepresenting people by almost saying its a part of their imagination.

    I based my argument on facts .. which you conveniently brushed aside
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It's a neatly circular argument, but like all circular arguments it only makes sense if you start by assuming your desired conclusion.

    My conclusion is based on personal experience and an interest in politics in general... That's why I can argue this without assuming and stick to facts


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    #106
    323
    Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭323


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Where would you suggest we can deport our homegrown religious conservatives to?

    I dont believe multi culturalism works tbh, I dont think thousands of Irish people going over to Saudi would work very well and I also dont think thousands of muslims coming to Ireland works very well either. Very different cultures.



    Wouldn't be allowed in anyway, to be honest cant think why anyone would want to go to Saudi. One visit years ago, spent a full hour with their religious police on arrival with them trying to to take a book off me, them saying "Bible?" over and over, me answering "NO Dic - tion - ary" Scum bags.

    Multiculturalism is a one way thing, only expected of western traditionally christian cultures, never hear of it being forced on asian, arab or african countries.

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



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    #107
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Yourself isit wrote: »
    Ghettoisation is a global scale is what used to be called national sovereignty.
    No, it's not. I'm having trouble even figuring out how you've conflated two such completely different things.
    I've rarely seen a rational argument for multiculturalism...
    That's like saying you haven't seen a rational argument against racism. Multiculturalism is an expression of mutual respect; it shouldn't need a rational argument. If you're demanding a rational argument for mutual respect, you need to have a good look at yourself.
    multiculturalism means many cultures.
    It means more than that: it means cultures coexisting peacefully.
    If you think all cultures are equal...
    Maybe you should go find an example of me saying all cultures are equal.
    weisses wrote: »
    I don't think thousands of Irish could move to Saudi...
    What's with the obsession with Saudi Arabia in every discussion of multiculturalism?

    Are you and others under the impression that the Saudis have set some sort of perfect example of multiculturalism that we all must seek to emulate?

    "Multiculturalism is great in theory, but if it doesn't work in Saudi Arabia, how could it possibly work anywhere else?"

    It's an argument that's so pathetically transparent I'm surprised it's being advanced with a straight face. It's a bit like arguing that capitalism doesn't seem to be working out too well in North Korea, so let's abandon the idea.
    323 wrote: »
    Multiculturalism is a one way thing, only expected of western traditionally christian cultures, never hear of it being forced on asian, arab or african countries.

    You're right. We should take all our human rights cues from the worst examples we can find. Let's base our laws on homsexuality on Sudan, shall we? After all, if they won't treat gay people as human beings, why should we?


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    #108
    AnGaelach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Multiculturalism is an expression of mutual respect; it shouldn't need a rational argument.

    That's an absolutely ridiculous position to hold. You denounce nativism or racism as irrational, but multiculturalism being irrational is somehow justified just by virtue of its own existence?

    That's utterly preposterous.


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    #109
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    That's an absolutely ridiculous position to hold. You denounce nativism or racism as irrational, but multiculturalism being irrational is somehow justified just by virtue of its own existence?

    That's utterly preposterous.

    You think there's a rational basis for racism?


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    #110
    AnGaelach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You think there's a rational basis for racism?

    That's a nice deflection, but no. Racism is irrational and we denounce it for being irrational, yet now you're justifying multiculturalism as irrational as some kind of positive aspect.


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    #111
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    That's a nice deflection, but no. Racism is irrational and we denounce it for being irrational, yet now you're justifying multiculturalism as irrational as some kind of positive aspect.

    I'm having trouble parsing your posts, but I'll repeat what I said: multiculturalism is based on mutual respect, for which no rational argument should be required.


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    #112
    AnGaelach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm having trouble parsing your posts, but I'll repeat what I said: multiculturalism is based on mutual respect, for which no rational argument should be required.

    You do need a rational argument in favour of multiculturalism though. You can't just extol it as a virtue. Communism is based on shared mutual respect does that mean there's no need for a rational argument to endorse Communism? Absolutely not.


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    #113
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    You do need a rational argument in favour of multiculturalism though. You can't just extol it as a virtue. Communism is based on shared mutual respect does that mean there's no need for a rational argument to endorse Communism? Absolutely not.

    That's an interesting swerve, but anyway: the rational argument for mutual respect between cultures is that the alternative is mutual hostility between cultures. If you think the latter is more rational, feel free to make that argument.


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    #114
    AnGaelach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    That's an interesting swerve, but anyway: the rational argument for mutual respect between cultures is that the alternative is mutual hostility between cultures. If you think the latter is more rational, feel free to make that argument.

    Respect is an inherent ideal. Multiculturalism is not. You are advocating something, yet offering no rational argument for it. In this scenario, the opposite of multiculturalism isn't hostility to other cultures. It's integration of people into Irish culture. If you want to profess something as a worthwhile endeavour, you need to actually argue for it. Not simply say it's a good thing and that's the end of it.


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    #115
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    In this scenario, the opposite of multiculturalism isn't hostility to other cultures. It's integration of people into Irish culture.
    That's an expression of hostility to other cultures; it's a statement that outsiders are only welcome here if they abandon their own culture first.
    If you want to profess something as a worthwhile endeavour, you need to actually argue for it. Not simply say it's a good thing and that's the end of it.
    I am arguing for it. I'm pointing out that cultures coexisting peacefully is self-evidently better than cultures coexisting in mutual hostility, or cultural insularism.


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    #116
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭weisses


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    What's with the obsession with Saudi Arabia in every discussion of multiculturalism?

    Someone used it as an example and you responded to that post and you brought it up again in a post in response to me.

    I agree with you that Saudi Arabia has nothing to do with the serious problems in regards to multiculturalism in Europe
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Are you and others under the impression that the Saudis have set some sort of perfect example of multiculturalism that we all must seek to emulate?

    I was arguing the opposite ;)
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    "Multiculturalism is great in theory, but if it doesn't work in Saudi Arabia, how could it possibly work anywhere else?"

    It's an argument that's so pathetically transparent I'm surprised it's being advanced with a straight face. It's a bit like arguing that capitalism doesn't seem to be working out too well in North Korea, so let's abandon the idea.

    Again Saudi Arabia has nothing to do with the failed multiculturalism in Europe

    Multiculturalism is great in theory ... just leave it at that I would say


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    #117
    ArthurDayne
    Registered Users Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    Respect is an inherent ideal. Multiculturalism is not. You are advocating something, yet offering no rational argument for it. In this scenario, the opposite of multiculturalism isn't hostility to other cultures. It's integration of people into Irish culture. If you want to profess something as a worthwhile endeavour, you need to actually argue for it. Not simply say it's a good thing and that's the end of it.

    Multiculturalism is not about the 'integration of people into Irish culture', or at least not purely. The reason I say that is because it is a two-way street, multiculturalism is also about the integration of Irish society into a multicultural and globalised world.

    Mankind has clearly decided that it is a species which wants to explore, learn, develop and to trade globally. As technology and means of travel grow ever more accessible to the everyday person, the interaction of people of many cultural backgrounds is inevitable. That inevitability necessitates an openness to other cultures and a willingness to interact and learn from them. From that flows all the ties that bind from "intercultural" marriages and friendships.

    The question of whether multiculturalism is a virtue or not is simply irrelevant, it is a reality which has invariably developed alongside the internationalisation of the world -- we either learn to embrace it and learn from it, or we pull back in a drive for monoculturalism, which I believe history has taught us never really works out that well.


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    #118
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I don't propose that we do, but then I'm not the one objecting to allowing religious conservatives into the country. Have you ever been to Dubai? Or Turkey?

    The idea that multiculturalism doesn't work is a strange one. It's basically saying "I'm only happy when I'm surrounded by people who think exactly the same way I do"; it's basically an argument for ghettoisation on a global scale.

    I've never seen a rational argument against multiculturalism. It's either "I don't think it can work", which is an expression of belief - which, by its nature, doesn't require evidence - or a catalogue of problems allegedly caused by multiculturalism but which on closer inspection are caused by a rejection of other cultures.

    Don't take any lessons from Turkey they discriminate against Kurds while in the EU we have explicit rights for minorities. The Roma might be treated unfairly by western gvt's but they are in breach of EU law when they do that no such laws exist in Turkey towards minorities.


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    #119
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,792 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Don't take any lessons from Turkey they discriminate against Kurds...
    I'm not proposing taking lessons in discrimination from anyone. I'm proposing that Europe set a positive example in refusing to discriminate.


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    #120
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm not proposing taking lessons in discrimination from anyone. I'm proposing that Europe set a positive example in refusing to discriminate.

    Which we already do.


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    #121
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    ArthurDayne wrote: »
    Multiculturalism is not about the 'integration of people into Irish culture', or at least not purely. The reason I say that is because it is a two-way street, multiculturalism is also about the integration of Irish society into a multicultural and globalised world.
    Well no, both of these assumptions are wrong.
    The first one, the integration of immigrants into Irish society is not multiculturalism, it is in fact the opposite to multiculturalism.

    The second one, the ongoing changes and adaptations of a particular culture within its own nation is not "multiculturalism" either. No successful culture has ever stood still in time.

    Mankind has clearly decided that it is a species which wants to explore, learn, develop and to trade globally. As technology and means of travel grow ever more accessible to the everyday person, the interaction of people of many cultural backgrounds is inevitable. That inevitability necessitates an openness to other cultures and a willingness to interact and learn from them.
    All that is true, but respecting and trading with other cultures is not "multiculturalism".
    ArthurDayne wrote: »
    The question of whether multiculturalism is a virtue or not is simply irrelevant, it is a reality which has invariably developed alongside the internationalisation of the world -- we either learn to embrace it and learn from it, or we pull back in a drive for monoculturalism, which I believe history has taught us never really works out that well.
    A cursory look at Irish history reveals that two separate cultures have existed on this island for the last few hundred years; the orange and the green. Has that worked out well? IMO there is no doubt that we would be in a far better place right now, if we had had either one or the other, but not both.

    Check out the USA, a country of immigrants. That is not a multicultural country. All new immigrants were required to learn and speak English on arrival, to swear allegiance to the flag, to attend the same schools (where the national anthem was traditionally sung every morning). That is full-on integration. No foreign culture is allowed to carry on its own separate existence within the borders of the USA, with separate schools and a separate parallel society.
    Its a multi-racial society, not a multicultural one.

    If you listen carefully, you'll notice that most UK politicians now refer to Britain as a "multi-racial" society, whereas in the past they often said it was becoming multicultural. That is a tacit admission that the multicultural experiment there has failed. A multi-cultural society is divided into separate "communities". Lacking any real social cohesion, the overall society suffers.


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