Clear majority of Europeans want a total ban on Muslim immigration

recedite

ScumLord wrote: »

What if they start declaring they're atheists?

Then we are required under the modern interpretations of the Geneva Convention on Refugees to let them in.
Because under the Sharia laws of Islamic countries, people claiming to be atheists are criminals, and those who turned away from being Muslims should be killed.

So what does this tell us? The Geneva Convention on Refugees is not fit for purpose in the modern world, and neither is Sharia Law.

But put them both together, and you get a whole new level of crazy. More or less the entire Islamic world is entitled to apply for asylum in Ireland on this basis.

ScumLord

Sureiknow wrote: »

Taqiyya.

Scientology hasn't voved to kill all non scientolists.

Is that the preference in Islam? Or is it like Christianity where they're supposed to "save" everybody from a life without god and only kill them if they refuse to follow Islam.

As far as I know there have been plenty of times in history when predominantly Islamic countries/cultures have tolerated other faiths and of course, there are variations of Islam just like there are variations of Christianity, some more tolerant, some less tolerant.

The modern Muslim extremest is the result of European colonialism. I don't think they're a fair representation of Islam.

Yourself isit

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Really? For most polls across the whole of Europe?

For all polls ever. If your sample size is random, distributed and unbiased 1000 people is good enough to predict the views of millions, tens of millions or hundreds of millions.

AnGaelach

ScumLord wrote: »

We can't allow something like scientology and then say Muslims are too crazy to let in.

Very good idea. We need to ban Scientologists from Ireland too.

Annasopra

AnGaelach wrote: »

Very good idea. We need to ban Scientologists from Ireland too.

What about christianity? Can we ban that too please?

AnGaelach

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What about christianity? Can we ban that too please?

I don't think we can stop more Christians being born unfortunately.

Annasopra

AnGaelach wrote: »

I don't think we can stop more Christians being born unfortunately.

We cant stop more Muslims being born either

AnGaelach

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

We cant stop more Muslims being born either

Correct but there's fairly few of them being born in Ireland.

Joeytheparrot

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

We cant stop more Muslims being born either

Out of interest why does the LGBT people take muslims side so frequently recently? I being honest am a white/straight/male and I have no hatred for anyong but I also dont care so much about whether refugees do or dont come, probably wont affect my daily life in anyway and I am fairly selfish ill admit that.

My main question is the fact that basically nearly all muslims are against the LGBT way of life, why are so many of the LGBT community standing up for muslims? I mean its no secret that muslims are very anti homosexuality!

oscarBravo

AnGaelach wrote: »

I don't think we can stop more Christians being born unfortunately.

Not once in the history of humanity has a Christian been born.

A Little Pony

Deleted User wrote: »

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

We cant stop more Muslims being born either

Out of interest why does the LGBT people take muslims side so frequently recently?  I being honest am a white/straight/male and I have no hatred for anyong but I also dont care so much about whether refugees do or dont come, probably wont affect my daily life in anyway and I am fairly selfish ill admit that.

 My main question is the fact that basically nearly all muslims are against the LGBT way of life, why are so many of the LGBT community standing up for muslims?  I mean its no secret that muslims are very anti homosexuality!

I think we all know why. They have to be seen to be against what they see as white privilege and make sure they are politically correct, Marxist theory basically.

oscarBravo

A Little Pony wrote: »

I think we all know why. They have to be seen to be against what they see as white privilege and make sure they are politically correct, Marxist theory basically.

Or, to put it another way, "I haven't a clue, but I'll make something up anyway".

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

Or, to put it another way, "I haven't a clue, but I'll make something up anyway".

I actually have no dog in this fight/argument at all, I really dont care. I am just wondering why the LGBT community would be so in favour of muslims? Considering Muslims do not like homosexuality? I know christians dont either but Muslims are way more openly against it. I mean I have muslim friends, quite a few and about the best/ most liberal they would be about homosexuality would be they don't like it but they ignore it.

I read above majority of muslims want Sharia law implemented, I have talked to my muslim friends about that. They to said they believe in Sharia law but Sharia law is percieved differently by lots of muslims, just because a Muslim believes in Sharia law, doesn't necassarily mean they believe in stoning for adultery etc, it can have many meanings. Just because a Muslim says they believe in Sharia law doesn't automatically mean they believe in stonings etc.

Just my two cents, its an interesting subject but I am at the end of the day very selfish and I only care about what affects me direclty and this isn't an issue that will have an impact on my life. I just hope that all the Syrians can get safety by some means, however that is achieved.

KingBrian2

A Little Pony wrote: »

I think we all know why. They have to be seen to be against what they see as white privilege and make sure they are politically correct, Marxist theory basically.

Marxist theory was never about religion or sexual orientation it was strictly an economic system put forward against the exploitation of the workers of the world by the current system. The modern left conflate the civil rights movement with earlier Marxist-Lennist ideology of the 20th century which they were never about. We now have a perplexing situation in which leftists are supporting the very same people they were confronting at the beginning of their ideology. A case in point Wilders is pro social welfare which was traditionally a socialist and liberal vision for a Nation.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

I actually have no dog in this fight/argument at all, I really dont care. I am just wondering why the LGBT community would be so in favour of muslims? Considering Muslims do not like homosexuality? I know christians dont either but Muslims are way more openly against it. I mean I have muslim friends, quite a few and about the best/ most liberal they would be about homosexuality would be they don't like it but they ignore it.

"Muslims do not like homosexuality" is a very broad, sweeping statement which ignores the fact that Muslims are no more of a hive mind than Christians, Atheists, Jews or those of any other faith/non-faith. I suspect the LGBT community is emphasising with another community which continually endures bigotry and prejudice.

Deleted User wrote: »

I read above majority of muslims want Sharia law implemented, I have talked to my muslim friends about that. They to said they believe in Sharia law but Sharia law is percieved differently by lots of muslims, just because a Muslim believes in Sharia law, doesn't necassarily mean they believe in stoning for adultery etc, it can have many meanings. Just because a Muslim says they believe in Sharia law doesn't automatically mean they believe in stonings etc.

I'd say several Christians might disagree with the way that Ananias and his wife, Sapphira were treated. Identifying as being part of a religion doesn't mean that one agrees with or has even read every word in that faith's seminal holy text.

Deleted User wrote: »

Just my two cents, its an interesting subject but I am at the end of the day very selfish and I only care about what affects me direclty and this isn't an issue that will have an impact on my life. I just hope that all the Syrians can get safety by some means, however that is achieved.

+1

Annasopra

Deleted User wrote: »

Out of interest why does the LGBT people take muslims side so frequently recently?

LGBT people are diverse - some are extreme Islamophobes, some take a much stronger view on promoting a broad human rights agenda and recognising that a lot of the bigotry against muslims is the same deep rooted bigotry and prejudice faced by them.

Deleted User wrote: »

I am just wondering why the LGBT community would be so in favour of muslims? Considering Muslims do not like homosexuality? I know christians dont either but Muslims are way more openly against it. I mean I have muslim friends, quite a few and about the best/ most liberal they would be about homosexuality would be they don't like it but they ignore it.

There are diverse views amongst muslims. I have muslim friends who are strong believers in and defenders of human rights and who would very strongly support LGBT rights.

The other thing is here we often set Religion V LGBT as dichotomous things that people can identify as one and not the other. This is frankly nonsense. Just like there are Christians and Catholics who identify as lesbian, gay, bi or trans there are also Muslims who do to.

Yourself isit

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

"Muslims do not like homosexuality" is a very broad, sweeping statement which ignores the fact that Muslims are no more of a hive mind than Christians, Atheists, Jews or those of any other faith/non-faith. I suspect the LGBT community is emphasising with another community which continually endures bigotry and prejudice.

A faith is the very definition of a hive mind. And Islamic beliefs are more rigorously adhered to than Christian. The stats are pretty clear on that.

Yourself isit

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

LGBT people are diverse - some are extreme Islamophobes, some take a much stronger view on promoting a broad human rights agenda and recognising that a lot of the bigotry against muslims is the same deep rooted bigotry and prejudice faced by them.



There are diverse views amongst muslims. I have muslim friends who are strong believers in and defenders of human rights and who would very strongly support LGBT rights.

The other thing is here we often set Religion V LGBT as dichotomous things that people can identify as one and not the other. This is frankly nonsense. Just like there are Christians and Catholics who identify as lesbian, gay, bi or trans there are also Muslims who do to.

This is also disingenuous. There are Muslims and Christians who are liberal on LGBT but statistically it's odd.

ancapailldorcha

Yourself isit wrote: »

A faith is the very definition of a hive mind. And Islamic beliefs are more rigorously adhered to than Christian. The stats are pretty clear on that.

No, it isn't. A faith is a set of beliefs, ideals and rituals. Nothing more.

Yourself isit

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

No, it isn't. A faith is a set of beliefs, ideals and rituals. Nothing more.

I mean that doesn't actually contradict my statement. If a religion has a set of beliefs and if religious adherents are expected to conform to that belief system then it's a hive mind. You can actually say "Islam is hostile to LGBT".

ancapailldorcha

Yourself isit wrote: »

I mean that doesn't actually contradict my statement. If a religion has a set of beliefs and if religious adherents are expected to conform to that belief system then it's a hive mind. You can actually say "Islam is hostile to LGBT".

But you can't say that Muslims are though.

Yourself isit

Here's what British Muslims believe.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

However, when asked to what extent they agreed or disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, 18% said they agreed and 52% said they disagreed, compared with 5% among the public at large who disagreed. Almost half (47%) said they did not agree that it was acceptable for a gay person to become a teacher, compared with 14% of the general population.


Nearly a quarter (23%) supported the introduction of sharia law in some areas of Britain, and 39% agreed that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole. Two-thirds (66%) said they completely condemned people who took part in stoning adulterors and a further 13% condemned them to some extent. [So 34% believe in stoning]. Nearly a third (31%) thought it was acceptable for a British Muslim man to have more than one wife, compared with 8% of the wider population.

Yourself isit

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

But you can't say that Muslims are though.

I suppose not (although this is a definitional thing - cultural vs religious Muslims).

ancapailldorcha

Where exactly are these figures from?

Rjd2

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

LGBT people are diverse - some are extreme Islamophobes, some take a much stronger view on promoting a broad human rights agenda and recognising that a lot of the bigotry against muslims is the same deep rooted bigotry and prejudice faced by them.



There are diverse views amongst muslims. I have muslim friends who are strong believers in and defenders of human rights and who would very strongly support LGBT rights.

The other thing is here we often set Religion V LGBT as dichotomous things that people can identify as one and not the other. This is frankly nonsense. Just like there are Christians and Catholics who identify as lesbian, gay, bi or trans there are also Muslims who do to.

Yeah the LBGT community is very diverse,plenty wouldn't consider themselves left wing whatsoever and probably identify with conservatism for various reasons whether social etc.

An example would be looking at Europe, how well Le Pen is doing with the gay community despite her own personal opinions on gay marriage tricky to pin down for ages and supposedly planning to abolish same sex marriage.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/lesterfeder/frances-nationalist-party-is-winning-gay-support?utm_term=.ftawKMGpd#.kkxBYVKkN

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/01/how-marine-le-pen-is-winning-frances-gay-vote/

CalamariFritti

A Little Pony wrote: »

I think we all know why. They have to be seen to be against what they see as white privilege and make sure they are politically correct, Marxist theory basically.

Marxist theory, I see.

My advice is if you don't know what a certain word means, don't use it.

Annasopra

Yourself isit wrote: »

There are Muslims and Christians who are liberal on LGBT

Yes. Exactly.

Annasopra

Rjd2 wrote: »

Yeah the LBGT community is very diverse,plenty wouldn't consider themselves left wing whatsoever and probably identify with conservatism for various reasons whether social etc.

An example would be looking at Europe, how well Le Pen is doing with the gay community despite her own personal opinions on gay marriage tricky to pin down for ages and supposedly planning to abolish same sex marriage.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/lesterfeder/frances-nationalist-party-is-winning-gay-support?utm_term=.ftawKMGpd#.kkxBYVKkN

http://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/01/how-marine-le-pen-is-winning-frances-gay-vote/

Yep. Very true. We've seen that here in Ireland too and in America.

KingBrian2

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

LGBT people are diverse - some are extreme Islamophobes, some take a much stronger view on promoting a broad human rights agenda and recognising that a lot of the bigotry against muslims is the same deep rooted bigotry and prejudice faced by them.



There are diverse views amongst muslims. I have muslim friends who are strong believers in and defenders of human rights and who would very strongly support LGBT rights.

The other thing is here we often set Religion V LGBT as dichotomous things that people can identify as one and not the other. This is frankly nonsense. Just like there are Christians and Catholics who identify as lesbian, gay, bi or trans there are also Muslims who do to.

They would be called apostates in accordance with Islamic tradition as set out in the Quran and they are precisely the ones who hold sway in the Islamic world.

Yourself isit

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes. Exactly.

That's fierce selective quoting.

Hank Scorpio

I don't believe all Muslims are against LGBT rights, but there is evidence out there suggesting a widespread intolerance for homosexuality. I'm not going to dump a tonne of links but the Guardian have done other polls, one of them found 50% of Muslims in the UK think homosexuality should be illegal, and 25% would support the implementation of Sharia law.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality

"The Gallup poll features the results of telephone and face-to-face interviews with Muslims and non-Muslims in the UK, France and Germany and is designed to measure global attitudes towards people from different faith traditions.

It shows that British Muslims hold more conservative opinions towards homosexual acts, abortion, viewing pornography, suicide and sex outside marriage than European Muslims, polling markedly lower when asked if they believed these things were morally acceptable.

The most dramatic contrast was found in attitudes towards homosexuality. None of the 500 British Muslims interviewed believed that homosexual acts were morally acceptable. 1,001 non-Muslim Britons were interviewed."

ancapailldorcha

That's a very old poll with a very small sample size.

oscarBravo

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

I don't believe all Muslims are against LGBT rights, but there is evidence out there suggesting a widespread intolerance for homosexuality.

There's a widespread intolerance for homosexuality in the US, but nobody's suggesting a blanket ban on American immigration.

Hank Scorpio

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's a very old poll with a very small sample size.

This poll is from 2016. It's different from the other one I posted because this one asks about legality rather than morality.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

"Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds
Survey for Channel 4 documentary finds 23% want sharia law"

Yourself isit

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That's a very old poll with a very small sample size.

His poll was 2009. My link is 2015. Both use a sample size of 1000 which is standard.

Hank Scorpio

oscarBravo wrote: »

There's a widespread intolerance for homosexuality in the US, but nobody's suggesting a blanket ban on American immigration.

There's a difference, immigration from certain regions in terms of integration and benefiting society is what holds the base of the opposing argument. Even Merkel has gone as far to say multiculturalism has failed in Germany.

ancapailldorcha

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

This poll is from 2016. It's different from the other one I posted because this one asks about legality rather than morality.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

"Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds
Survey for Channel 4 documentary finds 23% want sharia law"

As far as I know, all religions hold negative views of homosexuality and would have several adherents who would like to see it illegalised.

Not sure what your point is regarding Sharia given that fewer than 25% want it.

KingBrian2

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

As far as I know, all religions hold negative views of homosexuality and would have several adherents who would like to see it illegalised.

Not sure what your point is regarding Sharia given that fewer than 25% want it.

I see what he is getting out. The calls for sharia law will get louder now that we see a rise of Islamophobia and bashing the migrants. Are we not to proclaim that are principles on these matters are non-negotiable before a tidal wave of demands come out for more courts to set up under an Islamic mandate.

Yourself isit

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

As far as I know, all religions hold negative views of homosexuality and would have several adherents who would like to see it illegalised.

.

The stats showed that 52% of Muslims wanted it made illegal against 5% of the rest of the population. Many of the rest of the population are Christians.

Not sure what your point is regarding Sharia given that fewer than 25% want it.

25% is a lot of people wanting to replace democracy with theocracy.

Hank Scorpio

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

As far as I know, all religions hold negative views of homosexuality and would have several adherents who would like to see it illegalised.

Not sure what your point is regarding Sharia given that fewer than 25% want it.

One quarter is a big chunk and I don't think it should be brushed aside as if it's meaningless.

ancapailldorcha

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

One quarter is a big chunk and I don't think it should be brushed aside as if it's meaningless.

I didn't. However, it is a minority of what is already a minority demographic.

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

There's a widespread intolerance for homosexuality in the US, but nobody's suggesting a blanket ban on American immigration.

I mean look up the rankings for countries with worst treatment of women, majority of them are muslim countries, same for gay rights. I just dont understand why the liberal left are so up for leaving in so many Muslims who by nature are ultra conservative.

oscarBravo

Deleted User wrote: »

I mean look up the rankings for countries with worst treatment of women, majority of them are muslim countries, same for gay rights. I just dont understand why the liberal left are so up for leaving in so many Muslims who by nature are ultra conservative.

How hard are you trying to understand?

Banning all Muslims because some Muslims are religious conservatives makes no sense, unless you're going to argue for deporting our home-grown religious conservatives as well.

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote: »

How hard are you trying to understand?

Banning all Muslims because some Muslims are religious conservatives makes no sense, unless you're going to argue for deporting our home-grown religious conservatives as well.

Where would you suggest we can deport our homegrown religious conservatives to?

I dont believe multi culturalism works tbh, I dont think thousands of Irish people going over to Saudi would work very well and I also dont think thousands of muslims coming to Ireland works very well either. Very different cultures.

KingBrian2

oscarBravo wrote: »

How hard are you trying to understand?

Banning all Muslims because some Muslims are religious conservatives makes no sense, unless you're going to argue for deporting our home-grown religious conservatives as well.

Whatever happened to keeping the world safe from intolerant terrorists be they White Supremacists or Muslim Brotherhood sympathizers. Don't see much difference to be honest. Europe has to control borders and allowing us to be dictated by non-Europeans be they Americans, Muslim Arabs or the Chinese is not my idea of respecting diversity. It is caving in to extremists.

oscarBravo

Deleted User wrote: »

Where would you suggest we can deport our homegrown religious conservatives to?

I don't propose that we do, but then I'm not the one objecting to allowing religious conservatives into the country.

I dont believe multi culturalism works tbh, I dont think thousands of Irish people going over to Saudi would work very well and I also dont think thousands of muslims coming to Ireland works very well either. Very different cultures.

Have you ever been to Dubai? Or Turkey?

The idea that multiculturalism doesn't work is a strange one. It's basically saying "I'm only happy when I'm surrounded by people who think exactly the same way I do"; it's basically an argument for ghettoisation on a global scale.

I've never seen a rational argument against multiculturalism. It's either "I don't think it can work", which is an expression of belief - which, by its nature, doesn't require evidence - or a catalogue of problems allegedly caused by multiculturalism but which on closer inspection are caused by a rejection of other cultures.

oscarBravo

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Whatever happened to keeping the world safe from intolerant terrorists be they White Supremacists or Muslim Brotherhood sympathizers.

I don't know. What happened to it?

Europe has to control borders...

Europe does control its borders. If your argument is based on the fiction that Europe doesn't control its borders, then your argument is inherently bogus.

...and allowing us to be dictated by non-Europeans be they Americans, Muslim Arabs or the Chinese is not my idea of respecting diversity.

When someone proposes "allowing us to be dictated by non-Europeans" (whatever the hell that phrase even means, because I can't parse it), come back to me.

KingBrian2

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't know. What happened to it? Europe does control its borders. If your argument is based on the fiction that Europe doesn't control its borders, then your argument is inherently bogus. When someone proposes "allowing us to be dictated by non-Europeans" (whatever the hell that phrase even means, because I can't parse it), come back to me.

We don't control our borders. Libyan smugglers bring boatloads of migrants across the Mediterranean and then they vanish into the continent. The incident at Christmas of the terrorist leaving Germany traveling through France and getting killed by Italian police is a case in point. The Schengen Zone was never designed to accommodate the refugees that are being invited into Europe at the behest of America. None of the East Europeans want to have large scale immigration yet to say we need better policies to combat the smuggling you get accused of being a Russiaphile and wanting to destroy Europe.

weisses

oscarBravo wrote: »

Have you ever been to Dubai? Or Turkey?

From wiki about the UAE

The importation and sale of religious material is allowed; however, attempts to spread Christianity among Muslims are not permitted.
The government does not permit churches to display crosses on the outside of their premises or to erect bell towers.[4] Christian men are not allowed to marry Muslim women.[4][8] Conversion from Islam is not permitted.[4][8]

So how can Multiculturalism work int the UAE with restriction in place like I pointed out in the above quote?

Leaving that fact aside .. Do you think there would be an incentive for say 450. 000 Christians to integrate in Dubai when they can live together in their own neighborhoods? basically living the life they would have in any given European city? .. keeping in mind that one day in the not so far future they would be going home with a lot of cash

(figure is relative to the roughly 15% Muslim migrants in The Hague)

oscarBravo wrote: »

The idea that multiculturalism doesn't work is a strange one. It's basically saying "I'm only happy when I'm surrounded by people who think exactly the same way I do"; it's basically an argument for ghettoisation on a global scale.

The part in bold is the most ridiculous thing I have read so far in explaining why Multiculturalism has failed and is failing ... There are ghetto's in many cities across the mainland I was born in one where in 2014 the ISIS flag was waved proudly (the hague)

oscarBravo wrote: »

I've never seen a rational argument against multiculturalism. It's either "I don't think it can work", which is an expression of belief - which, by its nature, doesn't require evidence - or a catalogue of problems allegedly caused by multiculturalism but which on closer inspection are caused by a rejection of other cultures.

No rational argument ? try this one: The dutch appointed a minister (Vogelaar) to deal with the same issues you are describing as irrational, she failed partly because she couldn't call a spade a spade, For decades governments in the west are looking away from the huge problems regarding integration from people with different cultures/religions ... It is a FACT

Wouter Bos Dutch labor leader and Minister as well had this to say

Commenting on the resignation, Bos said that despite all her efforts, Vogelaar ‘found herself in a situation where she was unable to give effective leadership and drive through solutions for one of the biggest questions facing Dutch society: how do we ensure that people with different cultures, religions and ethnic backgrounds can live together peacefully?’

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/11/integration_minister_vogelaar/

oscarBravo

weisses wrote: »

So how can Multiculturalism work int the UAE with restriction in place like I pointed out in the above quote?

Wow, did you motorise those goalposts?

It was claimed that thousands of Irish people couldn't move to Saudi, which itself is the sort of pathetic argument from the extremes that betrays its own weakness ("if multiculturalism isn't possible in Saudi Arabia, it can therefore be logically argued that it's not possible anywhere" - give me a frigging break).

In response, I pointed out that there are majority-Muslim countries where westerners do, in fact, move in their thousands. And then, as if by magic, the argument becomes that multiculturalism in Europe is impossible because Muslims don't want Christians trying to proselytise at them.

No rational argument ? try this one: The dutch appointed a minister (Vogelaar) to deal with the same issues you are describing as irrational, she failed partly because she couldn't call a spade a spade...

What your argument boils down to is that multiculturalism can't work as long as there are people who are opposed to it, and that therefore it shouldn't be attempted, because any attempt at it will be met with resistance, and that resistance will be used as an excuse for not trying it.

It's a neatly circular argument, but like all circular arguments it only makes sense if you start by assuming your desired conclusion.