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"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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Comments

  • #542
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Cdosrun wrote: »
    Was your mother or sister ever in one of these homes.?

    Even some who where in there still say it was all good which shows how they had a grip on people.

    I have a good friend who was born and lived in the home in Roscrea until she was 10 when she was transferred to a children's home in Clonmel.
    Her mother had gone to roscrea to have her and had left to return home after she was born.
    Her mother never made any enquiries about her.
    This was confirmed when she made contact with her mother ( it was surprisingly easy to find her) 50 years later, a one time meeting full of awkward silences and resentment on the side of the old woman.
    She attended her mothers funeral and was ignored by her half-siblings but she got over it very quickly because that's the way she is.
    Her only complaint about her treatment at the hands of the nuns was that she left them st 16 illiterate and has never learned to read and write.
    She never married and has spent her life working in nursing homes because that's what the nuns trained her for. She's retired now.
    She knew from early on not to get too close to work mates because back in the 70s and 80s nobody wanted to know you if you"came out of a home ".
    All the nursing home positions were live in and she doesn't drink or smoke so she saved enough to by a small terraced house for cash when she was about 55.
    She lives very frugally even though she doesn't really need to.
    She goes on the diocesan pilgrimage to Lourdes each year as a helper and enjoys it.
    She voluntarily helps out with the parish home care team visiting elderly and infirm at home to do a bit of housework
    She can be tetchy and a bit sensitive but can't we all?
    She remained in contact with the nuns that reared her and visits them regularly, primarily to help them out with the mostly bedridden nuns and yet more housework
    For instance, she would go to them for Christmas every year and the nun in charge is down as her next of kin


  • #543
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Colser wrote: »
    Do you honestly believe that they couldn't afford to bury the babies in a dignified fashion?

    To have funerals and individual graves for every child who died? No of course they couldn't afford it. How do you suggest they could have afforded it?


  • #544
    Cdosrun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭Cdosrun


    infogiver wrote: »
    I have a good friend who was born and lived in the home in Roscrea until she was 10 when she was transferred to a children's home in Clonmel.
    Her mother had gone to roscrea to have her and had left to return home after she was born.
    Her mother never made any enquiries about her.
    This was confirmed when she made contact with her mother ( it was surprisingly easy to find her) 50 years later, a one time meeting full of awkward silences and resentment on the side of the old woman.
    She attended her mothers funeral and was ignored by her half-siblings but she got over it very quickly because that's the way she is.
    Her only complaint about her treatment at the hands of the nuns was that she left them st 16 illiterate and has never learned to read and write.
    She never married and has spent her life working in nursing homes because that's what the nuns trained her for. She's retired now.
    She knew from early on not to get too close to work mates because back in the 70s and 80s nobody wanted to know you if you"came out of a home ".
    All the nursing home positions were live in and she doesn't drink or smoke so she saved enough to by a small terraced house for cash when she was about 55.
    She lives very frugally even though she doesn't really need to.
    She goes on the diocesan pilgrimage to Lourdes each year as a helper and enjoys it.
    She voluntarily helps out with the parish home care team visiting elderly and infirm at home to do a bit of housework
    She can be tetchy and a bit sensitive but can't we all?
    She remained in contact with the nuns that reared her and visits them regularly, primarily to help them out with the mostly bedridden nuns and yet more housework
    For instance, she would go to them for Christmas every year and the nun in charge is down as her next of kin

    Yeah, that is like most people who lived there and say it was fine.


  • #545
    Cdosrun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭Cdosrun


    Girls were married out to local lads that that nuns approved of.
    That only got paid for looking after kids so a lad gets to 16 mostly before was kicked out.
    If you don't bring in the money your out while not spending the money on the kids.


  • #546
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,888 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    infogiver wrote: »
    I have a good friend who was born and lived in the home in Roscrea until she was 10 when she was transferred to a children's home in Clonmel.
    Her mother had gone to roscrea to have her and had left to return home after she was born.
    Her mother never made any enquiries about her.
    This was confirmed when she made contact with her mother ( it was surprisingly easy to find her) 50 years later, a one time meeting full of awkward silences and resentment on the side of the old woman.
    She attended her mothers funeral and was ignored by her half-siblings but she got over it very quickly because that's the way she is.
    Her only complaint about her treatment at the hands of the nuns was that she left them st 16 illiterate and has never learned to read and write.
    She never married and has spent her life working in nursing homes because that's what the nuns trained her for. She's retired now.
    She knew from early on not to get too close to work mates because back in the 70s and 80s nobody wanted to know you if you"came out of a home ".
    All the nursing home positions were live in and she doesn't drink or smoke so she saved enough to by a small terraced house for cash when she was about 55.
    She lives very frugally even though she doesn't really need to.
    She goes on the diocesan pilgrimage to Lourdes each year as a helper and enjoys it.
    She voluntarily helps out with the parish home care team visiting elderly and infirm at home to do a bit of housework
    She can be tetchy and a bit sensitive but can't we all?
    She remained in contact with the nuns that reared her and visits them regularly, primarily to help them out with the mostly bedridden nuns and yet more housework
    For instance, she would go to them for Christmas every year and the nun in charge is down as her next of kin

    Yes, all the mothers were uncaring harlots and the nuns were saints. And the church was a poor organisation that looked after these children out of the goodness of their hearts. They never made any money off trafficking children and forcing women into unpaid labour. Sure they didn't even have enough money to properly bury these children that they so selflessly cared for :rolleyes:


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  • #547
    Colser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,572 ✭✭✭Colser


    infogiver wrote: »
    To have funerals and individual graves for every child who died? No of course they couldn't afford it. How do you suggest they could have afforded it?

    A dignified fashion doesn't necessitate a big funeral or an individual grave...do you think that they could have buried them somewhere other than where they did for example in joint graves in a field and maybe their names engraved in a basic headstone?


  • #548
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    Yes, all the mothers were uncaring harlots and the nuns were saints. And the church was a poor organisation that looked after these children out of the goodness of their hearts. They never made any money off trafficking children and forcing women into unpaid labour. Sure they didn't even have enough money to properly bury these children that they so selflessly cared for :rolleyes:

    If that's what you want to read from what I wrote the go right ahead
    Nowhere did I say the nuns were saints
    I've said that she left them at 16 illiterate but that doesn't fit your (rather weak to be honest) sarcastic narrative so you just leave it out conveniently
    I've said that she's had to spend her working life in low paid menial work friendless and alone but once again it doesn't gel with your sardonic retort so leave that out too
    I've remarked that her only meeting with her mother was awkward and that her mother wasn't very pleased to see her but from that you take that I've described her mother as a "harlot" no less
    I'm guessing you didn't get an A in your LC English comprehension because to say that it's a bit of a leap is a huge understatement
    But hey, you got a couple of thanks for your post do I suppose that's the main thing for you do....
    Well done!


  • #549
    Cdosrun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭Cdosrun


    Picture this.
    You're 8/9 called to see sister in the office.
    Office,you go in is about 12 foot lone with a window other end.
    About 8 foot wide with desc on the left and cabinets on right.

    The door is locked behind you and blamed on something you didn't do.
    You can lie and say you did it and get it over whit or tell the truth that you didn't and get more beaten to give up.

    I went for the under the desc and would not come out until the door was unlocked and wide open.

    I made a run for it.


  • #550
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    infogiver wrote: »
    But undertakers have to be paid and graves purchased. The CoCo were paying for the keep of the girls and their babies, were they going to pay for the funeral arrangements too?
    I'm sure they could have saved enough money from the payment of enough money to look after an entire family to afford a fcking box and plaque for the poor children who died there. The convents all had handymen/groundskeepers who could have dug a grave (convents tend to have graveyards attached) and shovels are reusable, so that's a once-off expense in the unlikely event that they happened not to have one. I would say that a priest would surely have donated 10 minutes of his time to pray over the body, but thinking about it some of the priests I've know wouldn't give you the steam off their piss.


  • #551
    Cdosrun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭Cdosrun


    Infogiver do you think it was at any time ok for 7/9 yro kids to be hit with 3 foot long wood.?


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  • #552
    Cdosrun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭Cdosrun


    Cdosrun wrote: »
    Picture this.
    You're 8/9 called to see sister in the office.
    Office,you go in is about 12 foot lone with a window other end.
    About 8 foot wide with desc on the left and cabinets on right.

    The door is locked behind you and blamed on something you didn't do.
    You can lie and say you did it and get it over whit or tell the truth that you didn't and get more beaten to give up.

    I went for the under the desc and would not come out until the door was unlocked and wide open.

    I made a run for it.

    Just to clarify one way or the other you would get beaten.
    There was no good answer.


  • #553
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,888 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    infogiver wrote: »
    If that's what you want to read from what I wrote the go right ahead
    Nowhere did I say the nuns were saints
    I've said that she left them at 16 illiterate but that doesn't fit your (rather weak to be honest) sarcastic narrative so you just leave it out conveniently
    I've said that she's had to spend her working life in low paid menial work friendless and alone but once again it doesn't gel with your sardonic retort so leave that out too
    I've remarked that her only meeting with her mother was awkward and that her mother wasn't very pleased to see her but from that you take that I've described her mother as a "harlot" no less
    I'm guessing you didn't get an A in your LC English comprehension because to say that it's a bit of a leap is a huge understatement
    But hey, you got a couple of thanks for your post do I suppose that's the main thing for you do....
    Well done!

    It seemed to me you were trying to put a positive spin on your friends experience in a home. Honestly, none of those things sound good to me and the thought of any child growing up like that, only to go back as an adult and continue to do their menial work for them is sad.

    "Her only complaint" was being illiterate at 16? I mean, the nuns were charged with raising these children, what the actual fcuk were they doing if your friend wasn't even able to read at the end of her time there? That's a pretty basic thing.

    You seemed keen to highlight that her mother had no time for her but that the nuns did - deflect, deflect. They instilled a good work ethic in her etc sure aren't they great.

    Sorry, that's just how it came across to me


  • #554
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,807 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    ceadaoin. wrote: »

    "Her only complaint" was being illiterate at 16? I mean, the nuns were charged with raising these children, what the actual fcuk were they doing if your friend wasn't even able to read at the end of her time there? That's a pretty basic thing.

    One in six irish people cannot read: illiteracy is not uncommon here.


  • #555
    Cdosrun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭Cdosrun


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    One in six irish people cannot read: illiteracy is not uncommon here.

    Yeah but who was put in charge of teaching the kids .?
    And payed for it.?


  • #556
    nhunter100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭nhunter100


    infogiver wrote:
    But undertakers have to be paid and graves purchased. The CoCo were paying for the keep of the girls and their babies, were they going to pay for the funeral arrangements too?

    No response other than you are defending the indefensible. Disgusting tbh.


  • #557
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    ceadaoin. wrote: »
    It seemed to me you were trying to put a positive spin on your friends experience in a home. Honestly, none of those things sound good to me and the thought of any child growing up like that, only to go back as an adult and continue to do their menial work for them is sad.

    "Her only complaint" was being illiterate at 16? I mean, the nuns were charged with raising these children, what the actual fcuk were they doing if your friend wasn't even able to read at the end of her time there? That's a pretty basic thing.

    You seemed keen to highlight that her mother had no time for her but that the nuns did - deflect, deflect. They instilled a good work ethic in her etc sure aren't they great.

    Sorry, that's just how it came across to me

    Your seeing what you want to see. You have an agenda and you will distort what I say to fit that. Her mother had no time for her yes, but where did I say that the nuns did.
    What I did say is that because she found it hard opening up about her background to new people, and do has no close friends, that she remained close to the nuns, the people who raised her ( for good or for bad) and she visits them and helps them.
    She doesn't regard them, nor do they regard her, as family, and she does not nor has she ever considered any of them as a substitute mother.
    About 4 times a year including Christmas she goes to the now nearly empty Convent, lets one of the "well" nuns go home for a few days, takes over a bit of nursing duties, does a bit of housework and comes home.
    There's no critiscm of her mother from either she or I.
    Her mother wasn't pleased to be found and I don't blame her.
    She'd never told anyone and she'd had a husband and a family and now at s late hour of her life she'd had to "fess up". She was very uncomfortable at the meeting and I feel deeply regretted agreeing to meet.
    If you only want to hear the stories where mother and child jump into one another's arms then stick to the fiction section.


  • #558
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,888 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    One in six irish people cannot read: illiteracy is not uncommon here.

    I didn't know that, it's quite shocking. A lot of older people probably left school early and that might skew the figures somewhat?

    That's besides the point though because these institutions were paid by the government to raise and educate these children. If this girl was unable to read after 16 years in their care then that says a lot.


  • #559
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    nhunter100 wrote: »
    No response other than you are defending the indefensible. Disgusting tbh.

    No response from you other then to keep repeating yourself ad nauseam because you really don't have a clue what your talking about.
    You have no idea of the relationship between the state and the nuns, or the scale of the operation, the role of the coco, the health boards, the Dept of education, the families of the girls, the surrounding community etc
    And you don't want to know either.
    You can give no suggestion for what you feel SHOULD have happened because you really can't even imagine so we'll just leave it that your "disgusted " and confused and I'm tired of getting the same response from you over and over.


  • #560
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Cdosrun wrote: »
    Infogiver do you think it was at any time ok for 7/9 yro kids to be hit with 3 foot long wood.?

    It was never ok but it was common practice at the time in both the home and in most schools for children to be hit
    So back then it would have been acceptable, yes.


  • #561
    nhunter100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭nhunter100


    infogiver wrote:
    No response from you other then to keep repeating yourself ad nauseam because you really don't have a clue what your talking about. You have no idea of the relationship between the state and the nuns, or the scale of the operation, the role of the coco, the health boards, the Dept of education, the families of the girls, the surrounding community etc And you don't want to know either. You can give no suggestion for what you feel SHOULD have happened because you really can't even imagine so we'll just leave it that your "disgusted " and confused and I'm tired of getting the same response from you over and over.


    I don't know you as a person and too be honest I'm gald I don't as you are a disgusting human being.


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  • #562
    Cdosrun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭Cdosrun


    I was near to closing my account here beause of of these trolls.

    Feck them I'm staying.


  • #563
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    infogiver wrote: »
    They had no interest in what was happening the girls that they themselves abandoned at the door of the institution.
    None whatsoever.
    Once again your trying to superimpose the caring sharing affluent liberal society we enjoy today on the Ireland of the 1950s.
    That's ludicrous.
    Capital punishment for children was the order of the day in the school and in the home.
    Families of 9, 10 and more were the order of the day.
    There was widespread poverty and a very weak SW system.
    Do you honestly think people had time to be worrying about these "fallen" girls? Or their babies?
    If it wasn't so sad it would be funny how posters here imagine that there was any money for graves and funerals.
    The country was so poor that there was mass emigration but somehow you imagine people had time to worry about single mothers and money to pay undertakers.


    Odd then how priests etc had splendid funerals and gravestones,

    And you are wrong. People did care but the power of the church was such that they did not dare speak out. Any food etc would have been stopped

    Yet all the while,and this is clear in various documents, the church was demanidng money from the poorest of people for their convents.

    Look u Clonakility, Mercy Convent. They boast of that. .

    Graves can be dug by the men.

    Sure there was poverty but there were also riches,in the hands of the Church.


  • #564
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    infogiver wrote: »
    Well nhunter for most of the families, they were dropping off their daughter and telling her that they never want to see or hear from her again.
    Why do you think the girls remained in the laundries until they died and then were buried in the grounds of the laundry?
    Did you think that the family just accidentally forgot to go back and collect their treasured daughter and grandchild?
    So why would they ever care what conditions were like?
    No seriously nhunter, how do you explain them never going back to collect their daughter? Sure the pregnancy was only 9 months?

    They were not allowed to leave the laundries. Many tried to escape and the gardai brought them back.

    They were prisoners.

    A very few managed it and left Ireland

    You know so little. You need to research truth and reality. How it was not how you would like it to have been.


  • #565
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    kylith wrote: »
    Irish society, as influenced by the RCC.

    How about they used some of the rents from their properties, or some of the approx €70,000 (adjusted to today's money) that they received as 'donations' for adopting out children?

    They received the average industrial wage per woman. That would have been enough to keep a family fed, clothed, and housed.

    Thank you.

    Per capita grants were paid by the govt also

    Yes they had an abundance of money. The gilrs got nothing from their laundry work. Period.

    The orders have always been filthy rich and still are.

    infogiver; have you read in full the Ryan and Murphy reports?If not, please do. They are all online. Maybe then the info you give will have some basis in fact and reality.


  • #566
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    infogiver wrote: »
    If the families loved their daughter and grandkids so much then how come they never went back to collect them?

    Not allowed to. Period.


  • #567
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    nhunter100 wrote: »
    Not deluded at all bud, anyone with an ounce of intelligence would know the control the Church had till recently in the affairs of the state. Btw I never absolved anyone of responsibility. People didn't have to be brain washed morons but it seems it was the easiest route to take. You on the other wish to absolve the church of all its wrong doing in the killing of children because of neglect and the disposing of their bodies in a septic tank. I have no problem getting by as I don't feel the need to allow a guy with a pointy hat dictate how I should live.

    One small side comment. There were and always hav ebeen folk who bucked the system but did so quietly as they knew that if they spoke out? Whistle blowing ?

    Look at the local folk who kept the graves fair and safe. Who probably stopped that garden being sold for housing?

    Same at Cork where the gardeners who buried the children hammered nails into the wall in a code to show where each was buried.

    I know many such folk here. Bucking the system but doing so underground.

    The church held sway and power at every level of society.


    But some will always find ways round it,


  • #568
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    infogiver wrote: »
    Yes the parishioners wanted the new church.
    Nobody wanted the money redirected to the mother and baby home.
    People went door to door collecting for the new church.
    Your trying to paint everyone in 1950s Ireland as complete morons.
    These are people who went to University and became professionals, teachers architects solicitors, high court judges, doctors etc
    People who enjoyed foreign travel, a social life, were starting to buy modern conveniences etc
    But who according to you were helplessly enslaved in a kind of hypnotic trance.
    Fine if that's what you want to believe.
    It doesn't make any sense .

    And who had no conscience only the desire to be looked up to and respected. And the Church offered that. Still does to some folk.

    I have always refused to give to any church funds. Have written to priests saying why.

    What I have bolded.. did they say that? was that alternative offered?

    SInce the first child abuse scandal broke, every order and many parishes have seemed to think that a new church, a vastly renovated church, will solve all the problems.... Keeping up with and exceeding the Jones's...

    no thought for the homeless.

    So it becomes a church for the elite..

    I was to Knock Shrine this week. Used to be throngs there Ash Wednesday. The place was deserted.

    The basilica is a monument to elitism and pride. All from money demanded from the people.


  • #569
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    kylith wrote: »
    So, what? Should we shrug our shoulders and say 'Ah well, everyone knew about it. Who cares?' Should we charge everyone alive at the time with being complicit? Or should we investigate what happened and the people who actually did the deed?

    Actually: can someone who was around at the time confirm that everyone knew what was going on in the homes?

    Possibly not. Read Ryan and Murphy. The investigators quickly got wise to the fact that when the sisters knew they were coming. all was grand and great. Former residents record how as soon as the visitors left, the good food was whisked away...

    When they came unexpectedly they found the reality.

    Same with any visitors.

    Some here have said how the children at school from the homes were ragged and filthy and starving . The few who survived to school age.

    And no one could just walk in to the homes. The inspectors who recorded in Ryan and Murphy knew but were powerless to alter.

    Who knows today what goes on behind any closed door?


  • #570
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    infogiver wrote: »
    If you had been in charge what would have happened to the dead children, taking everything into consideration, and how would you have paid for these arrangements?

    They had and have abundant money. Period. And burial of course. Oh but then the little ones were illegitimate so no consecrated ground for them.

    No excuse. None. Starving to death then dumping? You are defending that?

    NB I would never have stayed in a set up like that. Period.


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  • #571
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    infogiver wrote: »
    Tuam had doctors, teachers, solicitors, business people, big farmers, county councillors etc. most of whom had contact regularly with the inhabitants of the institutions

    So? Are you saying that they KNEW what was going on and excused or approved it?

    Clutching at straws now?

    So they met the babies? Saw the dying ones? Were allowed in all the time?

    Proof please.


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