"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Graces7

Candle - vigil tonight here to honour the little ones who had no funerals, no prayers, no candles to light their path.... Because we care and honour and bless them, by name now.

Please add the flame of your love...

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.ie/

Blessings and peace to all..

smurgen

Nika Bolokov wrote: »

If they did they wouldn't have cared.

My bollocks!if people knew the full horrors of this place the place would have been ripped apart.the church should not be left off the hook for this. They'll be lucky if churches aren't torched!

infogiver

nhunter100 wrote: »

I wonder when they were dropping off their daughters did they realise their daughters would be abused, their grandchildren if unfortunate to die would be consigned to a septic tank. Somehow I doubt it.

Well nhunter for most of the families, they were dropping off their daughter and telling her that they never want to see or hear from her again.
Why do you think the girls remained in the laundries until they died and then were buried in the grounds of the laundry?
Did you think that the family just accidentally forgot to go back and collect their treasured daughter and grandchild?
So why would they ever care what conditions were like?
No seriously nhunter, how do you explain them never going back to collect their daughter? Sure the pregnancy was only 9 months?

kylith

infogiver wrote: »

But that was how Irish society felt about unmarried mothers at the time.
The religious orders were only falling into line with public opinion
You seem to be under the illusion that all this was going on unbeknownst to the public at large
You do realise that it was the girls own family who threw them over onto the institution?
Your trying to superimpose our more charitable view today on 1953.
That's crazy

Irish society, as influenced by the RCC.

infogiver wrote: »

To buy graves and have funerals would have cost money. Where was this money supposed to come from?
Maybe the family of the dead child should have been asked to pay?

How about they used some of the rents from their properties, or some of the approx €70,000 (adjusted to today's money) that they received as 'donations' for adopting out children?

infogiver wrote: »

I'm not justifying anything.
I'm trying to put some reality on the outrage
The local authority was responsible for paying the nuns per girl. Do you think that amount also included paying for land for graves and undertakers bills?
It barely covered food and clothes.
That's why they were doing laundry.
If the families of the girls wanted funerals and graves then what stopped them from having a funeral and a grave?

They received the average industrial wage per woman. That would have been enough to keep a family fed, clothed, and housed.

infogiver

smurgen wrote: »

My bollocks!if people knew the full horrors of this place the place would have been ripped apart.the church should not be left off the hook for this. They'll be lucky if churches aren't torched!

If the families loved their daughter and grandkids so much then how come they never went back to collect them?

nhunter100

infogiver wrote:

What about the treatment they received from their own families?

What treatment are you referring too ? The high infant mortality rates and abuse in the homes run by the church are well documented.

smurgen

infogiver wrote: »

If the families loved their daughter and grandkids so much then how come they never went back to collect them?

they were assured by the cleregy they were in safe,qualified hands.they were told there was something inherently wrong with them and had to be 'fixed'.nothing more than a ****ing cult!

nhunter100

infogiver wrote:

Well nhunter for most of the families, they were dropping off their daughter and telling her that they never want to see or hear from her again. Why do you think the girls remained in the laundries until they died and then were buried in the grounds of the laundry? Did you think that the family just accidentally forgot to go back and collect their treasured daughter and grandchild? So why would they ever care what conditions were like? No seriously nhunter, how do you explain them never going back to collect their daughter? Sure the pregnancy was only 9 months?

I mentioned earlier how successful a cult the Church was, instilling shame was a key form of control. Religion controlled society for years, people behaved and conformed to the norms encouraged and enforced by the Church. Have a look at how honour killings are accepted in certain cultures, no difference in the attitude fostered by the Church here.

nhunter100

infogiver wrote:

No seriously nhunter, how do you explain them never going back to collect their daughter? Sure the pregnancy was only 9 months?

You do know that the young mothers were expected to pay off the cost of the birth to the Church. That was through working for example for the 'Laundries'. Often took years for this debt to be paid off. Those homes despite being funded in part by the state would appear to have been very expensive places to have a baby.

infogiver

nhunter100 wrote: »

I mentioned earlier how successful a cult the Church was, instilling shame was a key form of control. Religion controlled society for years, people behaved and conformed to the norms encouraged and enforced by the Church. Have a look at how honour killings are accepted in certain cultures, no difference in the attitude fostered by the Church here.

Sorry but your completely deluded here. You are absolving and entire population over a period of about 60 years of any responsibility whatsoever, as if they were all completely cut off from the outside world.
That's just ridiculous but if it helps you to get by then I'll leave you to it.

nhunter100

infogiver wrote:

Sorry but your completely deluded here. You are absolving and entire population over a period of about 60 years of any responsibility whatsoever, as if they were all completely cut off from the outside world. That's just ridiculous but if it helps you to get by then I'll leave you to it.

Not deluded at all bud, anyone with an ounce of intelligence would know the control the Church had till recently in the affairs of the state. Btw I never absolved anyone of responsibility. People didn't have to be brain washed morons but it seems it was the easiest route to take. You on the other wish to absolve the church of all its wrong doing in the killing of children because of neglect and the disposing of their bodies in a septic tank. I have no problem getting by as I don't feel the need to allow a guy with a pointy hat dictate how I should live.

infogiver

Tristian Mealy Crate wrote: »

Yeah so like I said, priorities not resources.

You can't look at what happened without it being in the context of the Church having the insane degree of control and influence that it had. I don't know why you have such a problem with that.

Yes the parishioners wanted the new church.
Nobody wanted the money redirected to the mother and baby home.
People went door to door collecting for the new church.
Your trying to paint everyone in 1950s Ireland as complete morons.
These are people who went to University and became professionals, teachers architects solicitors, high court judges, doctors etc
People who enjoyed foreign travel, a social life, were starting to buy modern conveniences etc
But who according to you were helplessly enslaved in a kind of hypnotic trance.
Fine if that's what you want to believe.
It doesn't make any sense .

dav3

infogiver wrote: »

Sorry but your completely deluded here. You are absolving and entire population over a period of about 60 years of any responsibility whatsoever, as if they were all completely cut off from the outside world.
That's just ridiculous but if it helps you to get by then I'll leave you to it.

You appear to have many questions, strangely enough they’re not the questions needed after the information released yesterday. It’s a well-worn deflection tactic used since the first abuse victim came to light, ‘sure the catholic church is full of pedophiles, rapists and abusers…but look over there, whataboutery, sure we’re all to blame’.

Perhaps you could start a new thread for whataboutery and leave this one for the mass grave found in Tuam?

There may be some questions still to be answered of the people who brought the women to these buildings, but it shouldn’t be in this thread. The nuns weren’t forced to carry out these horrific acts against mothers and babies in these homes, they could have treated these people with dignity, empathy and compassion, they chose not to.

While a gun maker may be accused of murder by some, it is the person who pulls the trigger that is found guilty.

Let us not forget that the nuns involved in this could have stepped in at any stage, from the 1920s right up until yesterday to clarify exactly what went on. They could have told us the reasons why the death rates were so high and why the dead bodies were dumped in a hole, and they could have confirmed that the bones did indeed belong to babies from the home.

Instead we had cover-ups and the hiring of PR firms to deflect attention away from the issue. All while the bones of babies lay in a hole in the ground with their relatives and siblings never knowing what happened to them.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

infogiver wrote: »

Yes the parishioners wanted the new church.
Nobody wanted the money redirected to the mother and baby home.
People went door to door collecting for the new church.
Your trying to paint everyone in 1950s Ireland as complete morons.
These are people who went to University and became professionals, teachers architects solicitors, high court judges, doctors etc
People who enjoyed foreign travel, a social life, were starting to buy modern conveniences etc
But who according to you were helplessly enslaved in a kind of hypnotic trance.
Fine if that's what you want to believe.
It doesn't make any sense .

If that's what your taking away from my posts it's on you man, but you're so far off base about my motivations it's comical. You're fighting a boogy man because you either don't understand or have no arguments against the actual point being made. G'luck.

nhunter100

infogiver wrote:

Yes the parishioners wanted the new church. Nobody wanted the money redirected to the mother and baby home. People went door to door collecting for the new church. Your trying to paint everyone in 1950s Ireland as complete morons. These are people who went to University and became professionals, teachers architects solicitors, high court judges, doctors etc People who enjoyed foreign travel, a social life, were starting to buy modern conveniences etc But who according to you were helplessly enslaved in a kind of hypnotic trance. Fine if that's what you want to believe. It doesn't make any sense .

A person defending a Church that engaged in the wholesale abuse of children doesn't make sense either.

nhunter100

dav3 wrote:

Let us not forget that the nuns involved in this could have stepped in at any stage, from the 1920s right up until yesterday to clarify exactly what went on. They could have told us the reasons why the death rates were so high and why the dead bodies were dumped in a hole, and they could have confirmed that the bones did indeed belong to babies from the home.

Instead they hired Terry Prone of the Communications Clinic to put a PR spin on the Tuam Home and deflect.

nhunter100

nhunter100 wrote: »

A person defending a Church that engaged in the wholesale abuse of children doesn't make sense either.

Yes, they did bad things, so lets blame absolutely everything on them.

I have no time for any religion today, but the current fad of blaming everything on the church is just a cop out. Irish society was totally complicit in the way unmarried mothers were treated.

In years to come, who will you blame todays problems on? the media?

dav3

nhunter100 wrote: »

Instead they hired Terry Prone of the Communications Clinic to put a PR spin on the Tuam Home and deflect.

A tangled web which hopefully one day will be unraveled.

http://www.rte.ie/news/investigations-unit/2015/0706/713047-1-million-in-special-allowances-for-politicians/

More than €1 million in special allowances – including €600,000 for public relations – has been paid out to government ministers and other TDs through the little-known special secretarial allowance since the general election in 2011.

The company that fared best from the special secretarial allowance was the Communications Clinic, a well-known PR firm run by Today FM radio host Anton Savage, his mother Terry Prone, and her husband Tom Savage (a former chairman of RTÉ).

http://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-communications-clinic-3263726-Mar2017/

AN GARDA SÍOCHÁNA spent over €90,000 in just five months on media training for the service’s personnel.
The Garda hierarchy has engaged the services of the Dublin-based Communications Clinic, a media relations consultancy firm utilised by everyone from politicians to jobseekers, since September 2014, initially on an ad hoc basis.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/06/03/the-non-communications-clinic/

RTE chairman Tom Savage remains unaware of any potential conflicts of interest that may arise through his directorship of The Communications Clinic because his wife Terry Prone does not tell him.

…Ms Prone told the Sunday Independent yesterday that her husband, a former priest, only found out this week that his company trained the Irish Missionary Union to deal with the potential fallout from the Mission To Prey broadcast.

The TV personality said she did not see how people could perceive a conflict of interest from the IMU training or from services that their media-relations company might provide to RTE broadcasters.

Ms Prone commented: “People could perceive that I had three ears and a tail but that doesn’t make it fact.”

kylith

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, they did bad things, so lets blame absolutely everything on them.

I have no time for any religion today, but the current fad of blaming everything on the church is just a cop out. Irish society was totally complicit in the way unmarried mothers were treated.

In years to come, who will you blame todays problems on? the media?

So, what? Should we shrug our shoulders and say 'Ah well, everyone knew about it. Who cares?' Should we charge everyone alive at the time with being complicit? Or should we investigate what happened and the people who actually did the deed?

Actually: can someone who was around at the time confirm that everyone knew what was going on in the homes?

Help!!!!

infogiver wrote: »

Sorry but your completely deluded here. You are absolving and entire population over a period of about 60 years of any responsibility whatsoever, as if they were all completely cut off from the outside world.
That's just ridiculous but if it helps you to get by then I'll leave you to it.

Infogiver just wondering how old you are?? Under 30?? Ireland (& the world ) was a totally different place back then. People believed that the Priests & Nuns were to be respected. The world has evolved & modernised so much since the late 90s, before then things were more primal. We were kinda cut off from the world, no internet, if you didnt have a home phone you had to go to the pay phone on the street

nhunter100

Deleted User wrote:

I have no time for any religion today, but the current fad of blaming everything on the church is just a cop out. Irish society was totally complicit in the way unmarried mothers were treated.

So just for an analogy, society agrees that a bad person must go to Jail. When they are in Jail they are abused possibly even killed by the Prison Guard. Is the abuse society's fault or the Prison Guard?

smurgen

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, they did bad things, so lets blame absolutely everything on them.

I have no time for any religion today, but the current fad of blaming everything on the church is just a cop out. Irish society was totally complicit in the way unmarried mothers were treated.

In years to come, who will you blame todays problems on? the media?

In Germany Nazi officers are still arrested and tried for their crimes 60+ years ago.the Nazi party was the party in power at the time and was largely supported by the people of Germany.Yes Germans are to blame for the attrocities of the Holocaust but some are more to blame than others and are therefore tried and sentenced to prison years after.I see no reason why these nuns,priests and bishops should be treated any differently.

Noddyholder

kylith wrote: »

So, what? Should we shrug our shoulders and say 'Ah well, everyone knew about it. Who cares?' Should we charge everyone alive at the time with being complicit? Or should we investigate what happened and the people who actually did the deed?

Actually: can someone who was around at the time confirm that everyone knew what was going on in the homes?

I was only a young gossoon back in the fifties, My mothers two sisters went sent to England as they were pregnant, That only came common knowledge in the family about until about 15 years ago.

It was all kept under huge wraps. Lots of woman from the area we were told were in Dublin, never to be heard or spoke of again ,No one would dare question the local priest or church, what he said went, end of.

Rural life (even now) is completely different to living in the big city's, You shan't bring shame upon your family or village, You can/were/could be blacklisted very quickly.

I don't think most folk really knew what happened to the forgotten women, it wasn't talked about & out of sight is out of mind, When the abuse & laundry scandal's first came out there was huge upset & I suppose shame on a lot of people around here.

Around my way the local priest & the church in general still has huge respect & I must say he is a delightful & intelligent young man way up to the challenges his church faces.

infogiver

nhunter100 wrote: »

A person defending a Church that engaged in the wholesale abuse of children doesn't make sense either.

Your "go to" allegation that I'm "defending a church" when you can't point out any post where I defended them, smacks of desperation.
You can't explain why educated and sometimes professional and often land owning parents dumped their daughters on the nuns, never to return so you just resort to one-liners.

nhunter100

Deleted User wrote:

In years to come, who will you blame todays problems on? the media?

The perpetrators of course, same as I blame the church and their minions for the abuse they carried out in the past.

SPDUB

I really wouldn't bring up the Mission To Prey broadcast .

Best example ever of what happens to media when you allow them to go on a witch hunt .

infogiver

kylith wrote: »

So, what? Should we shrug our shoulders and say 'Ah well, everyone knew about it. Who cares?' Should we charge everyone alive at the time with being complicit? Or should we investigate what happened and the people who actually did the deed?

Actually: can someone who was around at the time confirm that everyone knew what was going on in the homes?

My mother and her sisters. All born between 1926 and 1934 and all with perfect recall.
That's why I'm so sure. I've been listening to the stories for 50 years.

nhunter100

infogiver wrote:

Your "go to" allegation that I'm "defending a church" when you can't point out any post where I defended them, smacks of desperation. You can't explain why educated and sometimes professional and often land owning parents dumped their daughters on the nuns, never to return so you just resort to one-liners.

You keep deflecting back to the parents smacks of defense to me. Whataboutery is a tool of defense, what gave the nuns or the Church the right to abuse these women and dispose of their children as if they were rubbish? Any chance you could address my question ?

Romantic Rose

My mother was born out of wedlock in the 50s but not a chance in hell was my mother ever going to be handed over to some sadistic little wretch. She was raised by her aunts and grandparents. I know people were brainwashed but people should have stood in unison against these monsters too. I know it was borne out of complete fear though.

Even now it makes me sick how hierarchical and powerful the church is. When a priest comes into the school, we have to bow to his honour and give him the VIP treatment! They're slowly losing their power, I wish it would happen quicker. I only realised in the last 5 years how brainwashed I was at school. You wouldn't dare question anything about the church.

It breaks my heart thinking of those poor babies and children and their mothers. I doubt the perpetrators of these horrific crimes will ever be brought to justice but at least the ones still living should be. The vicious little weasels that destroyed so many lives and now they're going to the '3rd World' to do the same, it would make your skin crawl!

nhunter100

infogiver wrote:

Your "go to" allegation that I'm "defending a church" when you can't point out any post where I defended them, smacks of desperation.

Must have missed your post that condemned the behaviour of the Nuns that ran the home in Tuam. What was the post number so I can search for it and read it.