"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Snickers Man · 04-03-2017 06:11PM

dav3 wrote: »

Whatever about the rest of your asinine post. The above quote is very telling.

What's going on here lads? This line is getting trotted out all over the internet today from people desperately attempting to deflect from the report today.

What exactly are you hoping to achieve?

.

Don't take my word for anything. Just read the report from the Commission. You can see it here. NB read the report, NOT the headline.

Here is an excerpt. I have bolded out some words for emphasis and clarity.

“Test trenches were dug revealing two large structures. One structure appears to be a large sewage containment system or septic tank that had been decommissioned and filled with rubble and debris and then covered with top soil. The second structure is a long structure which is divided into 20 chambers. The Commission has not yet determined what the purpose of this structure was but it appears to be related to the treatment/containment of sewage and/or waste water. The Commission has also not yet determined if it was ever used for this purpose.

In this second structure, significant quantities of human remains have been discovered. "

Aineoil · 04-03-2017 06:16PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

Don't take my word for anything. Just read the report from the Commission. You can see it here. NB read the report, NOT the headline.

Here is an excerpt. I have bolded out some words for emphasis and clarity.

“Test trenches were dug revealing two large structures. One structure appears to be a large sewage containment system or septic tank that had been decommissioned and filled with rubble and debris and then covered with top soil. The second structure is a long structure which is divided into 20 chambers. The Commission has not yet determined what the purpose of this structure was but it appears to be related to the treatment/containment of sewage and/or waste water. The Commission has also not yet determined if it was ever used for this purpose.

In this second structure, significant quantities of human remains have been discovered. "

The inhumanity of this is way beyond belief.

Electric Sheep · 04-03-2017 06:23PM

infogiver wrote: »

Yes the parishioners wanted the new church.
Nobody wanted the money redirected to the mother and baby home.
People went door to door collecting for the new church.
Your trying to paint everyone in 1950s Ireland as complete morons.
These are people who went to University and became professionals, teachers architects solicitors, high court judges, doctors etc
People who enjoyed foreign travel, a social life, were starting to buy modern conveniences etc
But who according to you were helplessly enslaved in a kind of hypnotic trance.
Fine if that's what you want to believe.
It doesn't make any sense .

In Tuam in the 50s? Precious few university educated.

nhunter100 · 04-03-2017 06:24PM

Snickers Man wrote:

In this second structure, significant quantities of human remains have been discovered. "

So the remains of children have been found in a series of chambers connected to the sewage system. Some might call it a 'tank' even a septic tank. Anything new to add, we already know where the remains were found.

Noddyholder · 04-03-2017 06:29PM

A 1947 report by an official inspector who visited the Home says some of the children were suffering from malnutrition, and 12 out of 31 infants examined were described as being "emaciated and not thriving". It also says that the Home was overcrowded, with 271 children and 61 mothers living there.[35] Death rates were extraordinarily high: 34 per cent of children died in the home in 1943; 25 per cent died in 1944; 23 per cent died in 1945; 27 per cent died in 1946. The report states "The death rate amongst infants is high... The death rate had appeared to be on the decrease but has now begun to rise again. It is time to enquire into the possible cause before the death rate mounts higher." The report went on to say, "the care given to infants in the Home is good, the Sisters are careful and attentive; diets are excellent. It is not here that we must look for cause of the death rate".[35]

An inspection two years later in 1949, conducted by inspectors from the Galway County Council, reported “everything in the home in good order and congratulated the Bon Secour sisters on the excellent condition of their Institution.”[36]

https://www.google.es/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjI97jwvL3SAhVF1xoKHYUXA6cQFgg-MAY&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBon_Secours_Mother_and_Baby_Home&usg=AFQjCNEmlD2W1wAc-FoKUULyTgP_ji9RiQ

nhunter100 · 04-03-2017 06:41PM

Noddyholder wrote:

An inspection two years later in 1949, conducted by inspectors from the Galway County Council, reported â€œeverything in the home in good order and congratulated the Bon Secour sisters on the excellent condition of their Institution.â€[36]

Nothing to see here, move along.

please helpThank YOU · 04-03-2017 07:10PM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

1933 Blue shirts Fascism Fine Gael Fascist Root Irish Nazi group.:eek: this aroud the same time what was going on in Tuam in Galway

And We Want people like this above to help the many Victims of Tuam Galway and many more what I think the Victims of Tuam and the likes should Join together and Fight the State other Wise its
DIVIDE AND RULE OR Conquer be Strong and start to fight them its Time to Stand and Fight you will Win

BlinkingLights · 04-03-2017 07:13PM

It's scary when you look back at how many aspects of Irish life in that period weren't very different to life under Franco in Spain.

Yeah, we were a democracy and not as militaristic but the corporate church state thing was very similar and where they used police and the army, Ireland used institutionalisation and the threat of shunning.

It has a lot of things going on that were very similar to fascism.

Incidentally, Spain also has a scandal of tens of thousands of stolen chikdren who were force adopted with church state collision in a similar period of history.

www.thejournal.ie/spain-stolen-babies-3252670-Feb2017/

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-15335899

There's a lot in common between the two situations.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 04-03-2017 07:55PM

infogiver wrote: »

My mother and her sisters. All born between 1926 and 1934 and all with perfect recall.
That's why I'm so sure. I've been listening to the stories for 50 years.

Some people must have known some details, just because members of your family knew doesn't mean everybody knew. My grandmother nearly visibly ages every time something like this breaks it's so difficult for her to process, and she's of a similar age. Some people who didn't know, should have. With hindsight it's pretty staggering that more suspicion wasn't raised and more action not taken. But for somebody who's accusing people of superimposing modern values on a historical social context, you're doing a pretty good job of it yourself. This was a largely under-educated, under-resourced society, very insular. This was completely beyond the pale for people, it would have been in many cases literally unthinkable that the church was doing what they were to children; due in no small part to the image the church presented of itself. I don't see how that's such an objectionable notion, or what kind of simple mindedness can't draw the distinction between that and 'everybody was helplessly enslaved morons back then'. Nobody is saying that.

The blame for this is at the feet of society as a whole, and the Church was one of the most if the most powerful and influential agents in that society at the time.

Samaris · 04-03-2017 07:59PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

Don't take my word for anything. Just read the report from the Commission. You can see it here. NB read the report, NOT the headline.

Here is an excerpt. I have bolded out some words for emphasis and clarity.

“Test trenches were dug revealing two large structures. One structure appears to be a large sewage containment system or septic tank that had been decommissioned and filled with rubble and debris and then covered with top soil. The second structure is a long structure which is divided into 20 chambers. The Commission has not yet determined what the purpose of this structure was but it appears to be related to the treatment/containment of sewage and/or waste water. The Commission has also not yet determined if it was ever used for this purpose.

In this second structure, significant quantities of human remains have been discovered. "

The newspapers were actually pretty bang-on really. But I don't actually get what your point is. Why are a small number of people so hung up on "it's not a septic tank, it's a part of a septic tank system the exact use of which is uncertain!"? Either is a bit of an affront to human decency when it comes to burying dead children. And more importantly, eight hundred children died there, apparently due to neglect. And this is no ancient history. Children who lived in these places are adults now and still live with what happened to them there. So really, focusing on what part of a septic tank system it is all sounds a bit pedantic.

infogiver · 04-03-2017 08:37PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Must have missed your post that condemned the behaviour of the Nuns that ran the home in Tuam. What was the post number so I can search for it and read it.

Yes you did miss it. You'll have to look at my posting history to find it.

infogiver · 04-03-2017 08:39PM

Samaris wrote: »

The newspapers were actually pretty bang-on really. But I don't actually get what your point is. Why are a small number of people so hung up on "it's not a septic tank, it's a part of a septic tank system the exact use of which is uncertain!"? Either is a bit of an affront to human decency when it comes to burying dead children. And more importantly, eight hundred children died there, apparently due to neglect. And this is no ancient history. Children who lived in these places are adults now and still live with what happened to them there. So really, focusing on what part of a septic tank system it is all sounds a bit pedantic.

If you had been in charge what would have happened to the dead children, taking everything into consideration, and how would you have paid for these arrangements?

nhunter100 · 04-03-2017 08:39PM

infogiver wrote:

Yes you did miss it. You'll have to look at my posting history to find it.

Or you could just say what post number it was. You know just to be helpful.

infogiver · 04-03-2017 08:46PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

In Tuam in the 50s? Precious few university educated.

Tuam had doctors, teachers, solicitors, business people, big farmers, county councillors etc. most of whom had contact regularly with the inhabitants of the institutions

nhunter100 · 04-03-2017 08:51PM

infogiver wrote:

If you had been in charge what would have happened to the dead children, taking everything into consideration, and how would you have paid for these arrangements?

You seem determined to apply a price as justification as to how the children's remains were dealt with. I never knew the Catholic Church was such a poor organisation.

Mam of 4 · 04-03-2017 09:01PM

infogiver wrote: »

If you had been in charge what would have happened to the dead children, taking everything into consideration, and how would you have paid for these arrangements?

It's not as if all the children died at the one time , and the nuns had to have a mass burial and couldn't figure out how to pay for it ?!
It beggars belief , it honestly does , how these Innocent children could not have been simply ,quietly , buried in a grave . A grave for a small baby , an infant , a small child , is not a Six foot coffin size . Believe me , I know .

The fact that those involved couldn't even do a simple , human , last thing for all these children , shows exactly how much they thought of them - nothing . Disposable .

Sometimes our faith in others can be sorely tested . And in this case , and many other Homes , they failed everyone involved.

minibear · 04-03-2017 09:21PM

The nuns will probably eventually "remember" that a priest actually officiated at interments into this pit/tomb/septic tank.
I really do hope that there will be a lot less than 800 remains in the site, because the babies were worth so much more as adoptees to be "sold". The nuns were running a business and it was all about profit so we can only hope that they looked after their interests.

Is it known how many different doctors were involved on the death certs?
is it known what kind of testing is planned on the remains?
If they've already done C14 dating on some of the bones, do they intend to date them all and will they DNA test them so that each individual can be reinterred?
The religious orders bank accounts should be frozen and the money taken from them to pay for this testing and their re-burial and the headstones for every single child buried there.

I think it's difficult for some people to appreciate the grip that the church had on this country at times. In the 1930's my father in law's mother died when he was a child. His father wanted to keep the children and raise them himself but they were forcibly taken from the home and put into various institutions around the country. My father in law ended up in Letterfrack but was lucky enough at age fourteen to be sent to work for a farmer who treated him like his own child. He was friends with another child in Letterfrack who, after some minor misdemeanour was beaten so badly he died. They claimed he died from TB. Yet after all this, my father in law still can't understand why we won't baptise our daughter. He buys The Irish Catholic (i find it fairly poor fodder for lighting a fire) and he goes to mass when he can.

Mrs OBumble · 04-03-2017 09:29PM

infogiver wrote: »

Tuam had doctors, teachers, solicitors, business people, big farmers, county councillors etc. most of whom had contact regularly with the inhabitants of the institutions

Exactly.

Even the dogs in the street knew. The people in the big houses most certainly did.

So:

Black and Tans
Magdalene Laundries
Mother and Baby homes
Aras Attracta
Direct Provision
Grace (and goodness only knows how many as-yet untold stories from our time)

What do they all have in common? How many people are brave enough to face the reality ......

ceadaoin. · 04-03-2017 09:30PM

Mam of 4 wrote: »

It's not as if all the children died at the one time , and the nuns had to have a mass burial and couldn't figure out how to pay for it ?!
It beggars belief , it honestly does , how these Innocent children could not have been simply ,quietly , buried in a grave . A grave for a small baby , an infant , a small child , is not a Six foot coffin size . Believe me , I know .

The fact that those involved couldn't even do a simple , human , last thing for all these children , shows exactly how much they thought of them - nothing . Disposable .

Sometimes our faith in others can be sorely tested . And in this case , and many other Homes , they failed everyone involved.

It seems to me that they didn't care about these children beyond their monetary value to them. If they couldn't be sold for whatever reason, they received the bare minimum of care and resources. Clearly that didn't even extend to the dignity of a proper burial. Sure what else were they to them but "products of sin"? They werent even seen as human beings, simply thrown away like the "things" they were. Disgusting.

Mr.Wemmick · 04-03-2017 09:44PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

It seems to me that they didn't care about these children beyond their monetary value to them. If they couldn't be sold for whatever reason, they received the bare minimum of care and resources. Clearly that didn't even extend to the dignity of a proper burial. Sure what else were they to them but "products of sin"? They werent even seen as human beings, simply thrown away like the "things" they were. Disgusting.

What strikes me is that farm animals would've had more value and a better quality of life - fed, kept strong and had vet treatment if needed. Not these poor kids, no value at all.. the lack of any type of burial is all the proof you need that these poor souls were seen as throw-away nothing.

Wonder if any of the nuns had pet cats? If they did, bet they were better fed and looked after.

bodice ripper · 04-03-2017 09:50PM

My grandma says when her mother died of TB, she can remember the local priest coming to take the kids. Her dad refused.

Romantic Rose · 04-03-2017 10:07PM

bodice ripper wrote: »

My grandma says when her mother died of TB, she can remember the local priest coming to take the kids. Her dad refused.

Why why why did more people not do this. Stand up to these complete bullies. Your Great Grandfather was very brave, as was my own family. I've only realised in the last few days how brave they were. Unfortunately I don't have too many family left to ask more questions of what actually went on back then.

Romantic Rose · 04-03-2017 10:13PM

One thing I often wonder too is did the priests and nuns join the priesthood and orders because they were inherently bad people and knew it was an outlet for their sheer evilness or did they just get caught up in a culture of bullying and cruelty. I know there were good priests and nuns too but were muted as soon as they spoke out at all ala The Spotlight film.

Cdosrun · 04-03-2017 10:56PM

infogiver wrote: »

My mother and her sisters. All born between 1926 and 1934 and all with perfect recall.
That's why I'm so sure. I've been listening to the stories for 50 years.

Was your mother or sister ever in one of these homes.?

Even some who where in there still say it was all good which shows how they had a grip on people.

infogiver · 04-03-2017 11:00PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

You seem determined to apply a price as justification as to how the children's remains were dealt with. I never knew the Catholic Church was such a poor organisation.

But undertakers have to be paid and graves purchased. The CoCo were paying for the keep of the girls and their babies, were they going to pay for the funeral arrangements too?

PCeeeee · 04-03-2017 11:05PM

I am from the Tuam area. This evening I searched the journal article listing the names of the dead for my own surname, I didn't not expect to find my name.

What I felt I can't quite describe. I don't mean that melodramatically but I can't explain it. I am disgusted and more.

Cdosrun · 04-03-2017 11:10PM

infogiver wrote: »

But undertakers have to be paid and graves purchased. The CoCo were paying for the keep of the girls and their babies, were they going to pay for the funeral arrangements too?

Let's look at as bussiness as they did.
They made loads of money in other homes,why not sent some to that one.
The council paid the nuns and a perant like my dad pay the council a lot for care that was bad.

Nekarsulm · 04-03-2017 11:20PM

bodice ripper wrote: »

My grandma says when her mother died of TB, she can remember the local priest coming to take the kids. Her dad refused.

My wife's paternal grand parents died within the one year. Her dad was the oldest at 17 years of age, and there were four younger children. Great pressure was put on him by both the local Priest and Sergeant to send the youngest two to a home.
He refused repeatedly, and prevailed against them. Kept the farm going, and raised them all.
He is a hero in my wife's eyes. Much more so than any of those being celebrated in the 1916 Easter rising.

Colser · 04-03-2017 11:25PM

infogiver wrote: »

But undertakers have to be paid and graves purchased. The CoCo were paying for the keep of the girls and their babies, were they going to pay for the funeral arrangements too?

Do you honestly believe that they couldn't afford to bury the babies in a dignified fashion?

Cdosrun · 04-03-2017 11:35PM

In the late 70s a teacher and staff member from the place I was in called on to where I lived because someone claimed one teacher was a wrong one and asked me to sign a paper to say no.
She was fine or good.
I was sh1tting my self and just signed it with out reading or knowing what was going on.

The teacher involved was an total bitch.

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Comments