Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*

suirway · 20-02-2017 11:56AM

It's very clear at this stage as it was 6 months ago that certain players are just not up to it. What is baffling is the fact that this was so obvious in last year's championship yet the view has been taken that a few switches here and there will cure the ills.

One would have expected an influx of the genuine promising defenders in the county yet the extent of the change has been to swap Padraig Walsh and Paul Murphy at the expense of both.

Where is Jason Cleere for example?? He was an absolute dominant colleges and minor at centre back. Surely he is worth a look at or is he injured or otherwise? Ditto Tommy Walsh. Dominant at full back on all three of Kierans winning All Ireland team yet no sign. No doubt he is young but surely at a time when we are crying out for half backs and corner backs with real hurling pedigree we need to look at such players.
Where is Diarmuid Cody? Might have his detractors but again could not be worse than what we are witnessing..

We all know Cody is an absolute legend but certainly facing greatest challenge now..

Answers on a post card please!

Twiceasnice97 · 20-02-2017 11:56AM

Topcat32 wrote: »

What would be the benifit of that? It clearly wont happen, just interested in what you think the rest of the management could do?

take the blame presumably.

Twiceasnice97 · 20-02-2017 12:03PM

mullinr2 wrote: »

Eoin Larkin @11larkyNot good enough from Kk.still reliant on experienced lads. Younger lads need to have the attitude NEVER give up.too many standing around11:00 AM - 19 Feb 2017 3838 Retweets 8080 likes

Larkin not impressed

very nasty comment considering reid Hogan and walsh showed zero leadership to the young players. the three of them were totally dominated by every player they came up against in a clare defence that could conceivably have three changes to it before we play championship with david Mcinerney parick o connor Patrick donnellan and Conor Ryan all to come into contention without even including the three backs from Ballyea in the conversation

Topcat32 · 20-02-2017 12:04PM

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

bump

4 all ireland this decade, 4 all irelands in the history of hurling, bump, but sadly yesterday doesnt even prove that your backline isnt poor, despite how much they dominated, will need to see Clare again against a team with at least one fast forward to make a judgement

dubcat51 · 20-02-2017 12:10PM

Topcat32 wrote: »

How about the following team, injury permitting for the last few rounds

E Murphy

P Murphy P Walsh J Holden

K Joyce C Buckley C Fogarty

K Kelly O Walsh

W Walsh C Fennelly TJ Reid

L Blanchfield R Hogan C Bolger

If aylward was fit and available id put him in instead of Bolger.

Good team but I would bring padraig out and change with joyce.joyce seems a natural full back more so than padraig.whether bolger is good enough is a matter of opinion at the moment(but he must be tried)also he has a eye for a goal.morrrisey leahy martin malone have all been tried in front of him.

Twiceasnice97 · 20-02-2017 12:15PM

Topcat32 wrote: »

4 all ireland this decade, 4 all irelands in the history of hurling, bump, but sadly yesterday doesnt even prove that your backline isnt poor, despite how much they dominated, will need to see Clare again against a team with at least one fast forward to make a judgement

I agree but against that we have played two games , one against a fast set of forwards and one against a slow set and between the two games we have allowed maybe three goal chances.

the other factor is that we could maybe pick 6 different backs for a game
ie
paul Flanagan Patrick O connor jack browne
david mcinerney conor ryan gearoid o Connell

and they might hold the same kilkenny forward line on current form so there is a chance from those 12 players we might get 6 who will be hard to score against
after all 3 of the above named players started in the 2013 all Ireland final and the other 3 will be playing in the all Ireland club final this year and that's without selecting a donnellan who captained the side in 2013.

tony Kelly and conor McGrath also to come into consideration

Topcat32 · 20-02-2017 12:26PM

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

I agree but against that we have played two games , one against a fast set of forwards and one against a slow set and between the two games we have allowed maybe three goal chances.

the other factor is that we could maybe pick 6 different backs for a game
ie
paul Flanagan Patrick O connor jack browne
david mcinerney conor ryan gearoid o Connell

and they might hold the same kilkenny forward line on current form so there is a chance from those 12 players we might get 6 who will be hard to score against
after all 3 of the above named players started in the 2013 all Ireland final and the other 3 will be playing in the all Ireland club final this year and that's without selecting a donnellan who captained the side in 2013.

tony Kelly and conor McGrath also to come into consideration

Well im not sure how much interest that is on the Kilkenny hurling forum but I hope you do well and cause Tipp/Waterford some problems this year, for geographical reasons and the fact that there is not a huge amount of championship history between the teams, Clare winning the all ireland probably stings the least of the other main counties.

Village87 · 20-02-2017 12:31PM

E Murphy

P Murphy ? ?

P Walsh ? ?

Buckley Fogarty(only cause Mick Fennelly is out)

W Walsh R Hogan Colin Fen

K Kelly Tj Ger Aylward

Can somebody fill in the 4 blanks for me please ?

brookville · 20-02-2017 12:31PM

suirway wrote: »

It's very clear at this stage as it was 6 months ago that certain players are just not up to it. What is baffling is the fact that this was so obvious in last year's championship yet the view has been taken that a few switches here and there will cure the ills.

One would have expected an influx of the genuine promising defenders in the county yet the extent of the change has been to swap Padraig Walsh and Paul Murphy at the expense of both.

Where is Jason Cleere for example?? He was an absolute dominant colleges and minor at centre back. Surely he is worth a look at or is he injured or otherwise? Ditto Tommy Walsh. Dominant at full back on all three of Kierans winning All Ireland team yet no sign. No doubt he is young but surely at a time when we are crying out for half backs and corner backs with real hurling pedigree we need to look at such players.
Where is Diarmuid Cody? Might have his detractors but again could not be worse than what we are witnessing..

We all know Cody is an absolute legend but certainly facing greatest challenge now..

Answers on a post card please!

I agree with most of this but is jason cleere not currently injured?No need for huge panic but a concern none the less,as I said above if it was a 2nd string team I wouldn't be as concerned.
I said it a few months ago I can't understand how a few more defenders weren't called in

brookville · 20-02-2017 12:40PM

Village87 wrote: »

E Murphy

P Murphy ? ?

P Walsh ? ?

Buckley Fogarty(only cause Mick Fennelly is out)

W Walsh R Hogan Colin Fen

K Kelly Tj Ger Aylward

Can somebody fill in the 4 blanks for me please ?

I wouldn't dismiss joyce but joey is only getting by at this level,he had great protection from murphy,He'll probably have to put murphy back corner back and he could leave padraig at 3 but we probably need padraig at 5 or maybe we need him in the fowards?
I know lads have mixed reviews bout bolger but as someone else said his better than conor martin,sean morrissey and michael malone (who wasn't listed since the walsh cup) at least himself and john walsh are goal getters

Topcat32 · 20-02-2017 12:55PM

brookville wrote: »

I wouldn't dismiss joyce but joey is only getting by at this level,he had great protection from murphy,He'll probably have to put murphy back corner back and he could leave padraig at 3 but we probably need padraig at 5 or maybe we need him in the fowards?
I know lads have mixed reviews bout bolger but as someone else said his better than conor martin,sean morrissey and michael malone (who wasn't listed since the walsh cup) at least himself and john walsh are goal getters

Too early to say he is better than Sean Morrissey who is 20/21, don't see Martin or Malone making it.

Backs must likely to be P Walsh, P Murphy, C Buckley, K Joyce, J Holden, R Lennon

Topcat32 · 20-02-2017 01:17PM

The players of current and potential intercounty standard that we havent seen so far for various reasons are Michael Fennelly, Colin Fennelly, Ger Aylward, Conor Delaney, Chris Bolger, John Walsh, Luke Scanlon, Jason Cleere, Tommy Walsh, Diarmuid Cody

Anybody else to add to this list?

Village87 · 20-02-2017 01:20PM

John Power - Pity its not his brother

Hawkeye6 · 20-02-2017 01:40PM

Virtually every poster here wanted to see this change and that change, this lad tried and that lad tried. Winning the league is not important one poster wrote. This change and that change happened, this lad and that lad was tried and still nobody is happy!!

Fact 1: Two years ago we lost the first two games of the league. Went on to win an All-Ireland.
Fact 2: We have a 100% trophy record in 2017 winning the Walsh cup beating Wexford (lot of talk about them after the weekend) in New Ross and Galway. Only a few weeks ago. Are our memories that short?
Fact 3: We can still mathematically win the league to keep the 100% trophy record in 2017.

Over a week ago, I asked here what county had a top class Full Back and bar one or two hesitant votes for Daithi Burke from Galway, there wasn’t one. There are lads singing about Padraig Walsh at full back as if it is the only good thing happening. I wonder… There was even the farcical situation yesterday of the local radio station giving him the Man of the Match. Seriously!! How two legendary hurlers could allow themselves to get sucked into such nonsense? I don’t know. I would suggest people should look at the last two matches again and see where Padraig Walsh was for the three goals we conceded. He certainly was not protecting the square. Also, look at the number of superb saves Eoin Murphy has had to make in those two games. A lot more than normal, I would say… Combine that with the lack of points from the half back line. Really! There was one poster who questioned Padraig and in my opinion he is not a full back at the moment. The choice for our management is should they persist and make him one or try something else?

Fact 4: Joey Holden was the All-Star full back in 2015, that last time we lost the first two games of the league and went on to win the All-Ireland. He also captained the team.

My opinion as opposed to fact, Joey Holden was the best of our three players in the full back line in the All-Ireland final against Tipperary. Also in my opinion, Joey Holden was Not at fault for the goals conceded against Clare in the League last year, Eoin Murphy was. These are the two games that have turned people against Joey, if you study past posts. Some talk about his speed, but was Noel Hickey fast? I remember a similar bias against Brian Hogan not long after he came on the panel. Maybe we should stick with Joey as the best we have and try to fix the problem which exists further out the field which again in my opinion and obviously Eoin Larkins too (though he should have kept it to himself) is the work rate. It wasn’t there yesterday. I believe particularly our half forward line need to work a lot harder when they haven’t the ball and that goes for some of the established players as much as the newer players. A lot of lads are codding themselves that they are doing it. Workrate is a key ingredient of a Cody Kilkenny team.

People who post here are entitled to their opinion, but they also need to be wary. The younger players are more inclined to read online comments than past generations. I don’t need to explain why this is. They will be told to avoid these forums like the plague, but they get hooked when they read something good about themselves and are unprepared for when the bad happens and are unlikely to tell anyone because they’ve been told avoid them in the first place. So bear that in mind.

Also forums like these do give a general view of the mood in the county, though often an inaccurate view of the squad. I often lol when I see some of the “facts” written here. Last September there was an unusual air of blaise around the county. Shocking given that we were meeting Tipp in an All-Ireland Final. I do believe it got to the players. Now a massive depression has hit judging by the comments here. That is not going to be good particularly for the younger player. The players are there and the raw material is good enough, it just needs to be blended to get the right mix. We might need to be a little bit patient.

On the bright side Carrickshock were absolutely brilliant on Saturday. An All-Ireland in the bag for the county. Hard luck Mooncoin. Both Kilkenny Camogie teams won their openers in the National League. The seniors hammering Tipp and the Intermediates beating Down, with a completely new team!! The Minor Camogie also won their first game of the All-Ireland serious against Limerick. The real Kilkenny GAA fans will appreciate this. And there’s another All Kilkenny Leinster senior colleges hurling final on the way too.

There is something of a more debatable nature coming up this weekend with Congress with anti-club and ignore-hurling motions the big item on the agenda and our own Young Irelands are one of a number of clubs trying to bring common sense to the minor/Under-17 debacle which is coming like a freight train and has already hit many clubs in rural Ireland. (Btw I believe Kilkenny is considered the second most rural county in Leinster after Longford) I might post on congress in a separate post later in the week.

Village87 · 20-02-2017 01:45PM

[QUOTEMy opinion as opposed to fact, Joey Holden was the best of our three players in the full back line in the All-Ireland final against Tipperary][/QUOTE]

His man got 9 points from play and walked off the field without breaking sweat, did as he pleased without interference. Shows how bad are full back line really is

Nedflanders02 · 20-02-2017 01:48PM

Topcat32 wrote: »

The players of current and potential intercounty standard that we havent seen so far for various reasons are Michael Fennelly, Colin Fennelly, Ger Aylward, Conor Delaney, Chris Bolger, John Walsh, Luke Scanlon, Jason Cleere, Tommy Walsh, Diarmuid Cody

Anybody else to add to this list?

Michael Cody, Darren Mullen, Billy Ryan, Huw Lalor, Ciaran Wallace possibly. Robbie Fitzpatrick looked a great prospect the year the Boro got to the county final but seems to have dropped off a bit since, possibly through injuries.

unrealtime · 20-02-2017 02:02PM

I am afraid we are in real trouble and denying reality does not wash.

There has been such unbelievable messing with all stars like Joyce, Walsh Buckley and Murphy.

No doubt the back line should be Murphy Joey (I'd give him a chance on past form) and one other. If we don't have better than Joyce then half line is Walsh Joyce and Buckley. Stop the messing around and find a tight left full and perhaps a centre-half. Fogaty stays at midfield and Hogan Reid Colin Fennelly and Walter are in the forwards. Find two more. Is Ger Aylward ever going to play again. But stop stop stop all the messing around and the disgraceful undermining of all stars.

Topcat32 · 20-02-2017 02:14PM

unrealtime wrote: »

I am afraid we are in real trouble and denying reality does not wash.

There has been such unbelievable messing with all stars like Joyce, Walsh Buckley and Murphy.

No doubt the back line should be Murphy Joey (I'd give him a chance on past form) and one other. If we don't have better than Joyce then half line is Walsh Joyce and Buckley. Stop the messing around and find a tight left full and perhaps a centre-half. Fogaty stays at midfield and Hogan Reid Colin Fennelly and Walter are in the forwards. Find two more. Is Ger Aylward ever going to play again. But stop stop stop all the messing around and the disgraceful undermining of all stars.

Playing in a different position in a league match is not being undermined. Ger is coming back from a cruciate ligament injury, it's hardly surprising that he has not started yet. To find two more as you put it he has to try out new players who will take time to settle in even if they do eventually work out.

buck65 · 20-02-2017 02:15PM

Topcat32 wrote: »

4 all ireland this decade, 4 all irelands in the history of hurling, bump, but sadly yesterday doesnt even prove that your backline isnt poor, despite how much they dominated, will need to see Clare again against a team with at least one fast forward to make a judgement

Bump, biggest loss ever under Cody's stewardship.

brookville · 20-02-2017 02:20PM

unrealtime wrote: »

I am afraid we are in real trouble and denying reality does not wash.

There has been such unbelievable messing with all stars like Joyce, Walsh Buckley and Murphy.

No doubt the back line should be Murphy Joey (I'd give him a chance on past form) and one other. If we don't have better than Joyce then half line is Walsh Joyce and Buckley. Stop the messing around and find a tight left full and perhaps a centre-half. Fogaty stays at midfield and Hogan Reid Colin Fennelly and Walter are in the forwards. Find two more. Is Ger Aylward ever going to play again. But stop stop stop all the messing around and the disgraceful undermining of all stars.

I think it's more than the backs are the problem the forwards have being very poor the ball yesterday clare were getting and the same as tipp last year it's easy enough make hay.
Have teams finally worked us out?man mark hogan and keep tj quite
I hope now he throws caution to the wind and tries a few more players if dublin can compete with youngsters we should be able aswell

Morris Moss · 20-02-2017 02:32PM

Twiceasnice97 wrote: »

much smaller than that. 5 - 10 max is my guess

I'd know him very well, and he's taller than 5-10, it doesn't really matter anyway he shouldn't be playing fullback, he's to important a hurler for us.

minty81 · 20-02-2017 02:55PM

It was our biggest defeat since 1992 v Limerick which was 1-18 o 0-7.

minty81 · 20-02-2017 02:58PM

Firstly I think anyone saying its only February and only the league are burying their heads in the sand. We have serious problems all over the field. We were in a relegation battle 2 years ago but on that occasion we were straight out of 6/7 huge retirements, injuries and the shamrocks players unavailable. The worrying thing now is there aren’t a host of automatic starters to come back in. Mick Fennelly would make a huge difference but given his injury problems we really can’t depend on that.

We lost a huge amount of players over the last 2 or 3 years but maybe the biggest loss of all was Martin Fogarty. I haven’t seen the training sessions that are put on now but we look a very poorly coached team. No shape to our team at all. Last week in the second half Waterford left Patrick Curran one on one with Joey for much of the second half. No other players inside the 45 yard line, our other defenders dragged out easily. Now fortunately it was at a stage where kk were getting on top and we weren’t caught out too much at that period but I just couldn’t believe how easily we were dragged around.

Similarly in the All Ireland our half back line were dragged upfield to create loads of space inside. Its not exactly a revolutionary tactic but we can’t keep our shape at the back at all.

And as for delivery of ball, just lump it up the field. Grand when we had the likes of Henry, Eddie and Power up there to look after themselves, different story now. If theres any coaching being done on this we certainly aren’t seeing it on matchday.

And when Colin Fennelly is out of the team there is no pace whatsoever in our forward line. Not easily fix that!

Richie & TJ have lost a few yards and no longer can get away from their men. Richie was very poor yesterday but he just looked frustrated to me.

As far as a team for the Cork game goes I agree with the other comments that we have to get Paul Murphy back in the corner.

I don’t like seeing Padraig Walsh full back but to be honest I just don’t see an alternative at the moment. The modern full back needs to be mobile so Joyce and Lennon don’t fit the bill for me. Any takers for trying Richie Reid in half back line by the way?

We need to look elsewhere than Shane Pender, he’s 31 now, he’s not going to suddenly improve or gain some pace. Realistically we need to build for the next couple of years. The chickens have come home to roost as far as our u-21 performances this decade.

Suggested team for Cork game, though whenever Jason Cleere is back from injury I’d certainly be trying him in half back line.

E Murphy

Murphy Walsh O’Shea

C Delaney Joyce Buckley

Fogarty O Walsh

Leahy Hogan TJ

Wally Blanchfield Bolger

Topcat32 · 20-02-2017 02:59PM

Got a good beating by Dublin in the league final in 2011 as well, losing by 12

SteJer · 20-02-2017 04:20PM

windy shepard henderson wrote: »

no relegation playoff this year , as i heard before but wasnt sure , this is from the offical gaa website makes sense really , and makes the next game against cork huge for the cats

That's only for the losers of the 1B relegation final and the winner of 2A. The winner of 2A had to play the loser of the 1B relegation final in previous years but that's now scrapped. There is still a 1A relegation final and it's scheduled for either April 1st or 2nd.

Nedflanders02 · 20-02-2017 04:21PM

Does anyone know what the story is with Joe Lyng is or when is he due back from injury? He be another option at the back or maybe midfield.

Topcat32 · 20-02-2017 04:36PM

Nedflanders02 wrote: »

Does anyone know what the story is with Joe Lyng is or when is he due back from injury? He be another option at the back or maybe midfield.

Still on the panel but injured at the moment I belive

randd1 · 20-02-2017 05:13PM

For the rest of the league, is like to see the lads line out like this:

E Murphy,
P Murphy - J Holden - P Walsh
K Joyce - R Lennon - C Buckley
O Walsh - C Fogarty
W Walsh - TJ Reid - J Power
L Blanchfield - R Hogan - R Leahy

If we went with that I'd like to see three things happen along with it.

- The HB line hold their line a bit deeper, Lennon especially, to cut down the space between them and the FB line, with Fogarty operating as a covering midfielder and as an out for the defence.
Walsh would be the legs to cover the defence/support the forwards with his direct running.

- With the HB line playing deeper, the HF line would really need to get stuck in physically. Walsh, Reid and Power are all big men capable of winning their own ball, and crucially can cover the yards as well, dropping into midfield to cover the attacks to help cut down quality ball coming at the defence, and all three are strong runners going towards goal.

- All of which would mean that the ball to the FF line should be good low ball as our HF line and midfield playing a bit deeper should drag the opposition out a bit. Richie Hogan could drop another 10 yards and be the link man if he got the right ball.

I think that team playing that way would be a tough nut to crack.

Come championship we would have Aylward and Colin Fennelly back, with Farrell another option from te bench up front. Murphy and Walsh in the corners would allow Holden to tight mark as both are better at covering than marking.

brookville · 20-02-2017 06:05PM

randd1 wrote: »

For the rest of the league, is like to see the lads line out like this:

E Murphy,
P Murphy - J Holden - P Walsh
K Joyce - R Lennon - C Buckley
O Walsh - C Fogarty
W Walsh - TJ Reid - J Power
L Blanchfield - R Hogan - R Leahy

If we went with that I'd like to see three things happen along with it.

- The HB line hold their line a bit deeper, Lennon especially, to cut down the space between them and the FB line, with Fogarty operating as a covering midfielder and as an out for the defence.
Walsh would be the legs to cover the defence/support the forwards with his direct running.

- With the HB line playing deeper, the HF line would really need to get stuck in physically. Walsh, Reid and Power are all big men capable of winning their own ball, and crucially can cover the yards as well, dropping into midfield to cover the attacks to help cut down quality ball coming at the defence, and all three are strong runners going towards goal.

- All of which would mean that the ball to the FF line should be good low ball as our HF line and midfield playing a bit deeper should drag the opposition out a bit. Richie Hogan could drop another 10 yards and be the link man if he got the right ball.

I think that team playing that way would be a tough nut to crack.

Come championship we would have Aylward and Colin Fennelly back, with Farrell another option from te bench up front. Murphy and Walsh in the corners would allow Holden to tight mark as both are better at covering than marking.

I don't think john power is the answer awful shame richie has only one knee his twice the hurler john is with only one leg,pat lyng will be half forward when he returns from injury
I'm suprised lennon isn't getting time in conditions that suit him and I would of preferred to have seen delaney ahead of pender yesterday.
There'll hopefully be a kick for the cork match a win there will lift things it's tipp then hopefully they'll be qualified at that stage and put out their junior team

Michael Kavanagh · 20-02-2017 07:30PM

Is there a need to bring in the sweeper system, no body hits a ball more than twenty yards now the amount of hand passing by Clare yesterday was unreal. The match v Waterford we were still pumping in high balls from the backs they were coming back as quick we could have getting a result from that match.

Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

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Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*