6 Nations 2017 General Discussion Thread

chris85 · 13-02-2017 11:35AM

WeleaseWoderick wrote: »

Very small sample to look at so far, but Italy games aside, all 4 other matches have been won by less than a score with nobody getting a try bonus point but all 4 losing teams getting a losing bonus point.

Yeah but you sense this will continue. In fairness not really a lot to look forward to with a Italian game. Look at round 3 and you see 2 good games with Scotland V Wales and Ireland V France both lining up to be good contests. Then look at the England V Italy game in Twickenham and I may tune in just to see how England go about it but otherwise its just a matter of how many points Italy are going to concede.

Perhaps Italy may play better in Rome V France and rattle them as France have very little structure to their game. But then again it seems Italy do not either.

turnikett1 · 13-02-2017 01:23PM

At this rate I'm in favour of going back to the 5N, with less breaks in between. I don't look forward to Italy matches. I don't enjoy watching them. Not even when Ireland is playing. I might tune in to see if Italy are putting up a fight, which they once in a blue moon do (before capitulating and conceding 4 tries in the last 20), but I honestly feel they are seriously undermining the quality of the tournament.

You could argue "But Scotland were dire a few years ago, you wouldn't have them booted?" and no, of course I wouldn't. They are the second oldest rugby playing nation in the world. This tournament would not exist without them. I might sound harsh but for me the 6N is all about the home nations and France. Even when Scotland were dire I still looked forward to seeing all their matches, even if it normally disappointed... The connection with them is much deeper, and different, to Italy. With Italy however I just get bored and annoyed when I watch, and really don't give a fiddle if it's good or bad for Italian rugby anymore, I mean how many people in Italy seriously care? The Stadio Olimpico barely hit 40,000, which is just over half the capacity, for both matches.

17 years ago we beat them 60-10, here we are now beating them 63-10. They are going nowhere and I really don't think Conor O'Shea is the answer. It's crap for the fans, both Italian and not. I would be much happier to tune into a tier-2 tournament, which I sometimes do, to watch Italy actually win some matches against equally matched opposition like Georgia and Romania. I'm pretty sure it would be much more heartening for Italian fans as well. We have just demolished them, the week before Wales gave them a sound (messy) beating. They are going to Twickers in 2 weeks and I dread what England are going to do them. For how many more years are Zebro and Treviso gonna play week in week out getting thrashed by other Pro12 sides, how many years are Italy gonna play in the 6N and get thrashed by pretty much every other team? Granted Scotland have yet to give them a proper hiding but I think we all know this is the year Scotland have finally clawed themselves out of the lower bracket of mediocrity. I'm expecting Scotland to put at least 20 points on them this year.

sydthebeat · 13-02-2017 01:42PM

3 irish senior mens sides put 148 points up on italian sides, conceding 41

they simply are not progressing from participating in the 6N or the pro 12, and especially the ECC

how long can they keep going like this?

13-02-2017 01:42PM

Conor O'Shea's job description extends well beyond coaching the national team.

I'd be willing to give it a few years with a strong administrator and youth development specialist like O'Shea before making any serious decisions.

Ultimately I don't think it will ever go back to the 5 nations though I wouldn't be surprised to see the Italian teams taken out of the Champions cup fairly imminently (maybe even next season).

sydthebeat · 13-02-2017 01:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Conor O'Shea's job description extends well beyond coaching the national team.

I'd be willing to give it a few years with a strong administrator and youth development specialist like O'Shea before making any serious decisions.

Ultimately I don't think it will ever go back to the 5 nations though I wouldn't be surprised to see the Italian teams taken out of the Champions cup fairly imminently (maybe even next season).

conor has admitted himself that we wont see his impact on italian rugby until well after hes left the head coach role.

at this stage have we anything to loose if georgia got a go?

13-02-2017 01:51PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

conor has admitted himself that we wont see his impact on italian rugby until well after hes left the head coach role.

at this stage have we anything to loose if georgia got a go?

Apart from the fact that it's twice as far away as Italy there is apparently a myriad of sponsorship and TV deals both medium and more long term that would need to be amended, breached or scrapped.

Honestly, I think if anything happened it would be the removal of Italy from the fold. I don't think we'd look to fill the spot with a team that probably would have the same level of impact.

Buer · 13-02-2017 02:00PM

The problem simply runs deeper than the 6N. It's rugby in Italy as a whole. There simply isn't the appetite for it at the level of the other nations involved. The game in Italy appears to be regressing significantly both in terms of talent on the field and backing off of it. I'm not quite sure where to go from here.

Leinster beat Treviso 40-14 yesterday. Through resting players, injuries and international absences, Leinster only had 2 first team players on the field. Treviso had only 9 involved with the Italian 23 so had a few players available to them. Yet that was the biggest winning margin they've ever had in Treviso which comes hot on the heels of a record win at home against Zebre.

The game is in big trouble and the trouncing is only going to see financial backing be withdrawn further. I can't see a happy ending for the Italian rugby teams at club or international level.

Former Former · 13-02-2017 02:16PM

Buer wrote: »

The problem simply runs deeper than the 6N. It's rugby in Italy as a whole. There simply isn't the appetite for it at the level of the other nations involved. The game in Italy appears to be regressing significantly both in terms of talent on the field and backing off of it. I'm not quite sure where to go from here.

Leinster beat Treviso 40-14 yesterday. Throught resting players, injuries and international absences, Leinster only had 2 first team players on the field. Treviso had only 9 involved with the Italian 23 so had a few players available to them. Yet that was the biggest winning margin they've ever had in Treviso which comes hot on the heels of a record win at home against Zebre.

The game is in big trouble and the trouncing is only going to see financial backing be withdrawn further. I can't see a happy ending for the Italian rugby teams at club or international level.

This is all true. It can't help that their Pro teams are based in two very small cities either. Like, it's great that Benetton are pumping their own money in but Treviso isn't exactly centre of the universe, likewise Parma. Maybe pro teams in Rome or Milan might bump up the profile a bit (or maybe they'd just be background noise behind the soccer).

But whatever problems they have, leaving the 6N would be the death knell for rugby there. You take away the exposure and most importantly the money that goes with that and its game over. They leave the Six Nations and the SANZAR teams will probably stop coming for November games too.

razorblunt · 13-02-2017 02:26PM

They should go the way of the Jaguares, make one combined Italian team, not just for Europe though but also for the Pro 12. Try and tempt as many players back to Italy as possible and see how that goes.

The Lost Sheep · 13-02-2017 02:32PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

3 irish senior mens sides put 148 points up on italian sides, conceding 41

they simply are not progressing from participating in the 6N or the pro 12, and especially the ECC

how long can they keep going like this?

But whats the alternative?

Buer wrote: »

The problem simply runs deeper than the 6N. It's rugby in Italy as a whole. There simply isn't the appetite for it at the level of the other nations involved. The game in Italy appears to be regressing significantly both in terms of talent on the field and backing off of it. I'm not quite sure where to go from here.

Leinster beat Treviso 40-14 yesterday. Through resting players, injuries and international absences, Leinster only had 2 first team players on the field. Treviso had only 9 involved with the Italian 23 so had a few players available to them. Yet that was the biggest winning margin they've ever had in Treviso which comes hot on the heels of a record win at home against Zebre.

The game is in big trouble and the trouncing is only going to see financial backing be withdrawn further. I can't see a happy ending for the Italian rugby teams at club or international level.

But what can we do? Can be done in Italy?

Former Former wrote: »

This is all true. It can't help that their Pro teams are based in two very small cities either. Like, it's great that Benetton are pumping their own money in but Treviso isn't exactly centre of the universe, likewise Parma. Maybe pro teams in Rome or Milan might bump up the profile a bit (or maybe they'd just be background noise behind the soccer).

But whatever problems they have, leaving the 6N would be the death knell for rugby there. You take away the exposure and most importantly the money that goes with that and its game over. They leave the Six Nations and the SANZAR teams will probably stop coming for November games too.

Treviso is one of the stronger clubs traditionally and would Rome really be any better when all the rugby in the country is in the North of the country.

Former Former · 13-02-2017 02:46PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Treviso is one of the stronger clubs traditionally and would Rome really be any better when all the rugby in the country is in the North of the country.

Yeah, for sure, but when they're getting crowds of 1500 people to Pro12 and European games, you have to ask if there is anything to lose by moving?

It's a much more palatable risk than pulling out of the 6N.

sydthebeat · 13-02-2017 03:04PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But whats the alternative?

Well the first step would be to recognise and admit that there is a problem.

If the aim of the expansion of the 5N and the inclusion of the italian teams in the celtic league was to promote and expand the game of rugby in italy, well, after 17 years it can only be considered a failure.

so my question is "how long can it continue"?

It makes a mockery of the ECC's supposed "meritocracy" argument and completely skews the pool stages when every single teams scores 5 points against the italian participant and it must be frustrating for teams like ospreys to see zebre there this season.

so, does european rugby stay the course with them or give someone else a go?

The Lost Sheep · 13-02-2017 03:22PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

Well the first step would be to recognise and admit that there is a problem.

If the aim of the expansion of the 5N and the inclusion of the italian teams in the celtic league was to promote and expand the game of rugby in italy, well, after 17 years it can only be considered a failure.

so my question is "how long can it continue"?

It makes a mockery of the ECC's supposed "meritocracy" argument and completely skews the pool stages when every single teams scores 5 points against the italian participant and it must be frustrating for teams like ospreys to see zebre there this season.

so, does european rugby stay the course with them or give someone else a go?

But what alternatives is there? Having the pro12 go to a straight meritocracy is there but we have such a limited pool of countries is reducing that by 1 possibly 2 In years where scots potentially are both doing ****e isn't really great is it?
We have to keep Italians as I don't see Georgians being added or a promo/relegation being added just incase we have years where a France/England potentially finish bottom.
It may be frustrating for an Ospreys or similar to see an Italian side there but we cant have European rugby just drop them.

Former Former · 13-02-2017 03:31PM

Three things to keep in mind here:

1. The "they contribute nothing, they're going nowhere" argument is exactly what was levelled at Connacht in the past. Would ditching them have been the right thing to do?

2. For the European club tournaments, it's only four years since the Irish, Welsh and Scottish rugby unions were insistent that maintaining representation from all countries was crucial, that the pan-European nature of the tournament was essential. Can they turn around now and say, nah, actually, meritocracy is where it's at?

3. It's not up to any or all of the Five Nations to turf Italy out. If Italy decide it's not in their interests to carry on, then they can do so, but I doubt the 6N has a mechanism to expel a member union.

13-02-2017 04:00PM

I was having a look at the likely outcomes for the tournament for us and England. If England get a BP win against Italy (likely) and Scotland (possible), if we win both our difficult games without a BP, that leaves us on 14 and England on 18. England take the tournament with a losing BP. What a dreadful ending that would be.

DGRulz · 13-02-2017 04:02PM

Not the same situation and was years ago, but was France not given the boot for a couple of years in the 1930s?

sydthebeat · 13-02-2017 04:04PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But what alternatives is there?.

'doing something' is the alternative to 'doing nothing'.....
what that 'something' is is not my place to say.
Im only questioning if we can actually continue with the status quo as it appears italian teams havent really progressed in 17 years... especially the senior team.

The connacht analogy is a good one because there has been a very tangible progression of connacht rugby since 2003, culminating in last years success.
Alas we cant point to any such comparable progress in italy.

Im not saying scrap italian rugby, im just challenging whether they should actually continue to have the very protected and privileged status they currently have, at the expense of better teams at club level, and at higher WR ranked teams on a national scale.

Perhaps it was too much too soon for them?

I know nothing of the financial aspect they generate or absorb, or tv deals etc im just looking at it from a pure rugby point of view.

as someone said above, maybe they should be encouraged to mirror the argentinan jaguares and have a more competitive club team. Success breeds success and the fan base and player base will never grow without it. it seems they assume that if they keep throwing money at it it will get better... which hasnt worked.
If they had a club team that could compete in the pro 12 or challenge cup.

when is the last time an italian team made even the semi finals of any tournament? the 1995-97 FIRA cup as far as i can make out.

errlloyd · 13-02-2017 04:05PM

turnikett1 wrote: »

At this rate I'm in favour of going back to the 5N, with less breaks in between.

Is it possible to play a 5 nations over fewer than 7 weekends without one team having to play 3 in a row?

Team 1 v Team 2
Team 3 v Team 4
Team 5 Bye.

Team 2 v Team 3
Team 4 v Team 5
Team 1 Bye.

Team 1 v Team 5
Team, 2, 3, 4 Bye.

Team 1 v Team 3
Team 4 v Team 2
Team 5 Bye

Team 5 v Team 2
Team 1,3,4 bye

Team 5 v Team 3
Team 1 v Team 4
Team 2 bye

Sorry I wrote that out to see if it was actually possible to shorten it a week while making sure no team played 3 in a row. It is. Just about. That is over 6 weekends, everyone plays everyone, and no one has three weeks in a row.

Still, it is only 10 games instead of 15, and although the games against Italy probably attract the lowest figures of all, they are still very valuable games to the broadcasters and sponsors.

CMOTDibbler · 13-02-2017 04:07PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

Well the first step would be to recognise and admit that there is a problem.

If the aim of the expansion of the 5N and the inclusion of the italian teams in the celtic league was to promote and expand the game of rugby in italy, well, after 17 years it can only be considered a failure.

so my question is "how long can it continue"?

It makes a mockery of the ECC's supposed "meritocracy" argument and completely skews the pool stages when every single teams scores 5 points against the italian participant and it must be frustrating for teams like ospreys to see zebre there this season.

so, does european rugby stay the course with them or give someone else a go?

The Italian problem is multi-faceted. In reality they're on a second reboot from the early years of their involvement in the 6N where most of their professional players were earning their corn abroad. There were also a considerable number of foreign imports and practically no home grown and home based players.

The emphasis has now changed with the addiition of the Italian club sides to first the HEC and then the Pro 12 and the growth of the semi-pro Excellenzia league. They kind of put the cart before the horse in their development, so realistically they're almost starting from scratch again.

It's a massive step forward in one respect that the squad that Italy are fielding this year are almost exclusively from their two Pro 12 clubs. It's taken time to build the structures below the national team and get to the point where the lower leagues can start providing better quality players. There's probably a lack of coaching talent at those lower levels which may be hampering progress, but I wouldn't be ready to write them off at this stage.

Former Former · 13-02-2017 04:10PM

DGRulz wrote: »

Not the same situation and was years ago, but was France not given the boot for a couple of years in the 1930s?

That was because they wanted to turn pro I think.

13-02-2017 04:19PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I was having a look at the likely outcomes for the tournament for us and England. If England get a BP win against Italy (likely) and Scotland (possible), if we win both our difficult games without a BP, that leaves us on 14 and England on 18. England take the tournament with a losing BP. What a dreadful ending that would be.

Yeah I said after the Scotland game that to win now there is a decent chance we'll need to beat England with a TBP or deny them a LBP along with beating both Wales and France.

Truth be told I wouldn't at all be surprised if England get a TBP against Scotland.

I guess we just need to make sure we get 4 tries in one of our remaining 3 games... ez!

sydthebeat · 13-02-2017 04:26PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It's a massive step forward in one respect that the squad that Italy are fielding this year are almost exclusively from their two Pro 12 clubs..

two pro 12 teams that have conceded 200 more points (each) than the team directly above them in the league though......

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

There's probably a lack of coaching talent at those lower levels which may be hampering progress, but I wouldn't be ready to write them off at this stage.

im certainly not writing them off, im actually arguing that it would be better for italian rugby if their whole system was looked at and they actually learned to walk again before they try to run.

Is 2 italian professional teams too many?
Are italian players getting better by virtue of playing with 2 pro 12 teams? very hard to argue that they are.
Is the italian domestic league of a sufficient level to progress players to pro 12 standard?

Argentina seem to be able to do it on a more sustainable basis and i expect the jaguares to be a lot more competitive this season than last.

The Lost Sheep · 13-02-2017 04:29PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

'doing something' is the alternative to 'doing nothing'.....
what that 'something' is is not my place to say.
Im only questioning if we can actually continue with the status quo as it appears italian teams havent really progressed in 17 years... especially the senior team.

The connacht analogy is a good one because there has been a very tangible progression of connacht rugby since 2003, culminating in last years success.
Alas we cant point to any such comparable progress in italy.

Im not saying scrap italian rugby, im just challenging whether they should actually continue to have the very protected and privileged status they currently have, at the expense of better teams at club level, and at higher WR ranked teams on a national scale.

Perhaps it was too much too soon for them?

I know nothing of the financial aspect they generate or absorb, or tv deals etc im just looking at it from a pure rugby point of view.

as someone said above, maybe they should be encouraged to mirror the argentinan jaguares and have a more competitive club team. Success breeds success and the fan base and player base will never grow without it. it seems they assume that if they keep throwing money at it it will get better... which hasnt worked.
If they had a club team that could compete in the pro 12 or challenge cup.

when is the last time an italian team made even the semi finals of any tournament? the 1995-97 FIRA cup as far as i can make out.

Treviso had been improving but lost their top players etc...
The Italians haven't made semis but neither have the scots bar Edinburgh once. Edinburgh have been out of their pool twice and Glasgow never have.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The Italian problem is multi-faceted. In reality they're on a second reboot from the early years of their involvement in the 6N where most of their professional players were earning their corn abroad. There were also a considerable number of foreign imports and practically no home grown and home based players.

The emphasis has now changed with the addiition of the Italian club sides to first the HEC and then the Pro 12 and the growth of the semi-pro Excellenzia league. They kind of put the cart before the horse in their development, so realistically they're almost starting from scratch again.

It's a massive step forward in one respect that the squad that Italy are fielding this year are almost exclusively from their two Pro 12 clubs. It's taken time to build the structures below the national team and get to the point where the lower leagues can start providing better quality players. There's probably a lack of coaching talent at those lower levels which may be hampering progress, but I wouldn't be ready to write them off at this stage.

Its taken time because of the structures in place in Italian rugby. Hopefully COS can do something about this in the long term with Steve Aboud who left IRFU where he was head of technical development, game development, coaching development for the same position within the Italian union.

sydthebeat · 13-02-2017 04:51PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The Italians haven't made semis but neither have the scots bar Edinburgh once. Edinburgh have been out of their pool twice and Glasgow never have.
.

I said "any" tournament, Glasgow of course won the pro 12 and were runners up the year before. edinburgh were runners up in 09 and runners up in the celtic cup in 03. In any event, scottish teams have been more successful than italian teams.... but thats not the point. Scotland dropped their 3rd team (borders) as they were considered after 5 years to be unsustainable.

perhaps italian rugby should take a similar step?

The Lost Sheep · 13-02-2017 04:59PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

I said "any" tournament, Glasgow of course won the pro 12 and were runners up the year before. edinburgh were runners up in 09 and runners up in the celtic cup in 03. In any event, scottish teams have been more successful than italian teams.... but thats not the point. Scotland dropped their 3rd team (borders) as they were considered after 5 years to be unsustainable.

perhaps italian rugby should take a similar step?

Scots were going from 3 to 2 while Italians would be going 2 to 1 which is very different and Scots didn't keep Borders because they were financially unsustainable but you were talking about looking at it from a pure rugby perspective and what is to be gained there?
League loses another side. We'd have uneven no of sides and lose revenue. Italians wont improve if they've less players playing at higher level

CMOTDibbler · 13-02-2017 05:21PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

two pro 12 teams that have conceded 200 more points (each) than the team directly above them in the league though......

That's not encouraging, no. But it's like a kid's bike with the training wheels removed. They're going to fall a lot, but they won't progress without removing the reliance on foreign based players. Which they've largely done now.

sydthebeat wrote: »

im certainly not writing them off, im actually arguing that it would be better for italian rugby if their whole system was looked at and they actually learned to walk again before they try to run.

Is 2 italian professional teams too many?
Are italian players getting better by virtue of playing with 2 pro 12 teams? very hard to argue that they are.
Is the italian domestic league of a sufficient level to progress players to pro 12 standard?

Argentina seem to be able to do it on a more sustainable basis and i expect the jaguares to be a lot more competitive this season than last.

The system below Pro 12 has improved a lot. There are players who are coming through those structures, even Ian McKinley made his way to Treviso via the Eccellenza league. So the pathway is there, it's just not as developed as ours which has schools and clubs to draw from and academies in between.

In some respects they have an advantage of having a semi-pro league. If they can keep it funded and attract good quality coaching then players will be getting to the higher levels younger and better prepared.

pickarooney · 13-02-2017 05:27PM

If they weren't so far away, Japan might be the best candidate to replace them..

Running Balance · 13-02-2017 05:32PM

Surely with going with just one club team you are narrowing your player pool base.
Therefore injuries would destroy the club and country.

Also players would surely get burnt out no??

iroced · 13-02-2017 05:40PM

DGRulz wrote: »

Not the same situation and was years ago, but was France not given the boot for a couple of years in the 1930s?

Former Former wrote: »

That was because they wanted to turn pro I think.

We were pros. Too much ahead of our time for our best enemy, perfidious Albion :pac:.
But unlike the US who gave up and created their own sports, we made compromise and accepted Britain rules to try and beat them at their own sports :P.

molloyjh · 13-02-2017 06:04PM

The idea that the Italians haven't shown any progression is just untrue. As TLS already pointed out Treviso were making great strides a few years back until an internal dispute created some genuine doubt over their future and players had to ensure they had somewhere to play the following season. They were gutted that season and have had to start pretty much from scratch.

Also the idea of "doing nothing" is massively disingenuous. COS has gone to Italy to start a major project of reviewing the set up in the country. To "do something" now, after he's been appointed to try and sort them out but before he actually gets a chance to, is not the right thing to do.

Like most things there is no magic fix. No switch that can be flicked to make it all okay. There had been improvements in Italian rugby but that seems to have stalled in the last couple of years. What we need to do is give them the space and the scope to sort things out. If that doesn't seem to be happening in a few years time (and that shouldn't just be judged on their 2 clubs and national team) then the other unions might need to consider their position. Until then the best thing we can do is give them a chance.

6 Nations 2017 General Discussion Thread

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