6 Nations 2017 General Discussion Thread

Dr Crayfish

Casual rugby fan here but I am always rooting for Italy. I'd actually even enjoy if they beat Ireland this time round, I can't help supporting underdogs.
Anyway, have they actually improved much since they joined the 6N or are they forever destined not to win the Championship due to the lack of rugby culture in the country?

Digifriendly

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Casual rugby fan here but I am always rooting for Italy. I'd actually even enjoy if they beat Ireland this time round, I can't help supporting underdogs.
Anyway, have they actually improved much since they joined the 6N or are they forever destined not to win the Championship due to the lack of rugby culture in the country?

i remember it being said as far back as 2000 when they entered the 6 N that within a decade Italy would win a Grand Slam. Here we are 17 years on and they have never won more than 2 matches in any championship, have never beaten England and never won away from home except in Scotland. Their 2 professional teams have struggled since their inclusion in the Pro 12 (Zebre replacing Aironi a few seasons back) and they are the whipping boys of European Cup.
I'm not for automatic relegation from the 6N but a home and away play off between the top team in the lower European championship and the bottom team in the 6N needs to be considered. As I understand it there is not the money put into Italian rugby that there is in the other 5 nations. This needs to change and IMHO there should just be one Italian team in the Pro 12 which would be a combination of the best of Treviso and Zebre and hopefully be more competitive. I wouldn't give up on Italian rugby and Conor O'Shea needs time to put his mark on the national side but unless changes are made to the present structure and more money made available for the Italian federation I think Italy will continue to struggle.
BTW my late father remembers watching Dungannon RFC (now in Division 2 B of AIL) drawing with the Italian national side back in 1960's so some progress has been made!

swiwi_

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Casual rugby fan here but I am always rooting for Italy. I'd actually even enjoy if they beat Ireland this time round, I can't help supporting underdogs.
Anyway, have they actually improved much since they joined the 6N or are they forever destined not to win the Championship due to the lack of rugby culture in the country?

We like to think of the underdog as maybe lacking a bit of technical ability, but giving it a whirl.

That is not the case for Italy, they are viewing poison: today's game was typical - loads of penalties conceded and kicking away (deep) lots of possession. They have 3 decent players: Parisse their 8, Campagnaro their centre (mysteriously on the bench today), and their injured winger (much loved by the Irish) Leonardo Sarto. Otherwise it's a mixture of Italian dross, SA journeyman, and an Aussie (McLean). They even had a barely Mitre 10 cup standard 10 for a while there (the Maori Kiwi Kelly Haimona).

They are ranked lower than Georgia these days, but the 6N committee is the Oxford Dictionary reference for "conservative", so any chance of Georgia getting a shot would probably need Georgia to knock out the likes Wales or Ireland in RWC pool pay and advance to a quarter final to make people sit up a bit (much like what happened with Argentina in 2007). Not that Georgia are any great shakes either, they are much of a muchness with Italy, but rugby is on the rise in Georgia, whereas it will never be anything other than a firm minority sport in Italy.

There is no chance Italy will beat Ireland next weekend, it's just a question of whether Ireland can do what Wales could not, and score 4 tries and a needed BP.

They also utterly drag down the Pro 12 and the European Cup, not having advanced an iota since their inauguration into the 6N. In fact some of the earlier sides were probably better than the current motley crew.

Not very positive, sorry.

Losty Dublin

thomond2006 wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/38794222

12 wins out of 86 Six Nations games since they joined the tournament.

Between 1980 and 1999 Ireland won 24 out of 80 games. A large proportion of these wins were in the early 80's. Look at us now. Equally look at Scotland. Mid 90's Grand Slams to wooden spoon contenders in less than a decade, yesterday excepted.

Italy are poor but then again the other 5 nations have had 125 years of a head start of game development over them. There is something to be said about bringing in some other nation but bar Georgia or Russia, who else? World Rugby needs to work at a long term development plan for all three nations. Personally speaking I won't be holding me breath.

Teferi

swiwi_ wrote: »

We like to think of the underdog as maybe lacking a bit of technical ability, but giving it a whirl.

That is not the case for Italy, they are viewing poison: today's game was typical - loads of penalties conceded and kicking away (deep) lots of possession. They have 3 decent players: Parisse their 8, Campagnaro their centre (mysteriously on the bench today), and their injured winger (much loved by the Irish) Leonardo Sarto. Otherwise it's a mixture of Italian dross, SA journeyman, and an Aussie (McLean). They even had a barely Mitre 10 cup standard 10 for a while there (the Maori Kiwi Kelly Haimona).

They are ranked lower than Georgia these days, but the 6N committee is the Oxford Dictionary reference for "conservative", so any chance of Georgia getting a shot would probably need Georgia to knock out the likes Wales or Ireland in RWC pool pay and advance to a quarter final to make people sit up a bit (much like what happened with Argentina in 2007). Not that Georgia are any great shakes either, they are much of a muchness with Italy, but rugby is on the rise in Georgia, whereas it will never be anything other than a firm minority sport in Italy.

There is no chance Italy will beat Ireland next weekend, it's just a question of whether Ireland can do what Wales could not, and score 4 tries and a needed BP.

They also utterly drag down the Pro 12 and the European Cup, not having advanced an iota since their inauguration into the 6N. In fact some of the earlier sides were probably better than the current motley crew.

Not very positive, sorry.

McClean is an Italian, is he not?

irishbucsfan

Teferi wrote: »

McClean is an Italian, is he not?

He's from Australia of Italian parents I think

swiwi_

Teferi wrote: »

McClean is an Italian, is he not?

He may well by now, he's been there long enough.

A cut 'n' paste from everyone's favourite Encyclopaedia - Wikipedia

McLean was born in Townsville, Queensland.

His mother's parents are both Italian; however, his grandfather had to give up his Italian citizenship to buy land in Australia.

McLean played for Perth Spirit in the Australian Rugby Championship before joining Italian team Calvisano in 2007, turning down a training contract with Western Force.

McLean was eligible for both Australia, being his country of birth, and Italy, due to his Italian grandmother.

penybont exile

swiwi_ wrote: »

Picamoles and Parisse giving No 8 master classes so far this weekend.

I trust our friend penypont is enjoying Wales rip Italy to shreds...

We see if Italy will fade in the 2nd 40.

Nice to know I was in your thoughts during the game ...... Don't recall saying we'd rip them to shreds but I can stand corrected.

Typical rusty old start from Wales ..... we might rue the lack of composure at the end with the bonus point begging to be taken. Hopefully not though.

Nice cameo from Sam Davies. Webb will need to up it a few gears next weekend. He hasn't played much lately .... definitely not match sharp.

Should be an interesting week in the media .... I'm sure Eddie will have plenty to say. [I hear he's already started]. He's had a relatively comfortable 6N ride so far [with the way the fixtures have fallen] ..... Hopefully he'll find out what it's all about next weekend. I expect a very different animal in red will take the field on Saturday ..... and as ever for Wales / England the atmosphere is going to be white hot.

iroced

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Casual rugby fan here but I am always rooting for Italy. I'd actually even enjoy if they beat Ireland this time round, I can't help supporting underdogs.
Anyway, have they actually improved much since they joined the 6N or are they forever destined not to win the Championship due to the lack of rugby culture in the country?

It took France 24 Tournaments and over 40 years (WWII & France exclusion from the V Nations in the 30ies because of professional status) to win its first Championship. Since its re-inclusion after WWII, France holds the best record in the Championship. And the sport is much bigger in France than in Italy.

So, in a way, it is still early stages for them. Now, they're currently struggling to move up a notch. They need time. But if one wants to look at them in a more positive way than swiwi (though he's not wrong in what he said), you could note that Italy beat South Africa for the first time ever during the last Autumn Tests series. I know it's by far not the best SA team we've seen but still, the result stands out.

The idea of a play-off between the last of the VI Nations and the first of the European Championship of Rugby is not a bad one though. At least it could be tested. But, it's the development of rugby in the minor nations that will be the key.

swiwi_ wrote: »

Not that Georgia are any great shakes either, they are much of a muchness with Italy, but rugby is on the rise in Georgia, whereas it will never be anything other than a firm minority sport in Italy.

I know what you mean but what is a major sport anyway? What are your criteria? Because, in a way, rugby could be seen as a "minor" sport in France. A couple of years ago, it was only the 7th sport in terms of the amount of members in France (after football, tennis, horse riding, judo, basket-ball and team handball). And that's with the huge impact of the RWC2007 in France that made the sport gain a lot of popularity.

Shero1985

Can anyone confirm what the rules are if teams are level on match points at end of the tournament? Is it still the same as previous years?- i.e. points difference.

errlloyd

Shero1985 wrote: »

Can anyone confirm what the rules are if teams are level on match points at end of the tournament? Is it still the same as previous years?- i.e. points difference.

Yes

iroced

Shero1985 wrote: »

Can anyone confirm what the rules are if teams are level on match points at end of the tournament? Is it still the same as previous years?- i.e. points difference.

Not sure. It used to be

If a tie, criteria are:
1. overall pts diff
2. amount of tries
If still a tie, shared title.

Only thing I could find this year is http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/championship/rules.php#1ZuUy4zUUwZuZ4Si.97

thomond2006

From an Irish POV who are we shouting for in Cardiff? If Wales win they still have to go France on the final day. If England win then they will be almost certainly going for a GS in Dublin as they have both Scotland and Italy at home.

errlloyd

thomond2006 wrote: »

From an Irish POV who are we shouting for in Cardiff? If Wales win they still have to go France on the final day. If England win then they will be almost certainly going for a GS in Dublin as they have both Scotland and Italy at home.

I think England going for a grandslam in Dublin makes them more vulnerable, not less vulnerable. So England without a BP for me pls.

Teferi

thomond2006 wrote: »

From an Irish POV who are we shouting for in Cardiff? If Wales win they still have to go France on the final day. If England win then they will be almost certainly going for a GS in Dublin as they have both Scotland and Italy at home.

0-0 draw.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

From an Irish POV who are we shouting for in Cardiff?

England.

We need to beat England on the last day to have a chance of winning the tournament so it doesn't matter what they win or lose along the way.

However, Wales beating England leaves them in a good spot for pinching our top 4 place in the world rankings and putting us into a second tier pool for the draw.

Optimally we win both, but were not catching England in the rankings and given we've to beat them anyway, I'd rather we beat them without having to look over our shoulders.

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

England.

We need to beat England on the last day to have a chance of winning the tournament so it doesn't matter what they win or lose along the way.

However, Wales beating England leaves them in a good spot for pinching our top 4 place in the world rankings and putting us into a second tier pool for the draw.

Optimally we win both, but were not catching England in the rankings and given we've to beat them anyway, I'd rather we beat them without having to look over our shoulders.

Actually a Welsh win wouldn't be a bad result for us at all. We still need to win the remaining games we have and a Welsh win would give us a good shot at the title if we can beat Wales in Cardiff.

Wales are away to France as well as Scotland. Losing even 1 of those 2 (and they could conceivably lose both) would mean they wouldn't be able to catch us (that obviously assumes we beat them ourselves).

So Wales beating England this weekend and then losing to us in Round 4 will probably see ourselves, England and Wales going into the last round on 1 loss. Wales will be away to France and we'll host England. It'd make for a cracking final weekend, and if we win should see us retain our top 4 place (potentially leapfrogging Australia to 3rd).

A draw wouldn't be too bad though either...

Wang Kerr

thomond2006 wrote: »

From an Irish POV who are we shouting for in Cardiff? If Wales win they still have to go France on the final day. If England win then they will be almost certainly going for a GS in Dublin as they have both Scotland and Italy at home.

Wales bhoyo

thomond2006

England:
Mike Brown (Harlequins); Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs); Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Elliot Daly (Wasps); George Ford (Bath Rugby), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers);
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 70 caps), Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes, (Northampton Saints), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Nathan Hughes (Wasps)

Replacements: Jamie George (Saracens), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Clifford and Nowell are in.

It slightly bothers me that that XV includes Dan Cole's caps and doesn't include Joe Launchbury's club

*twitch*

Bridge93

Was hoping Nowell wouldn't be picked. He's twice the player Jonny May is who is one of the most overrated players out there.

Webbs

Wales: Leigh Halfpenny; George North, Jonathan Davies, Scott Williams, Liam Williams; Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Rob Evans, Ken Owens, Tomas Francis; Jake Ball, Alun Wyn Jones; Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric, Ross Moriarty.

Reps: Scott Baldwin, Nicky Smith, Samson Lee, Cory Hill, Taulupe Faletau, Gareth Davies, Sam Davies, Jamie Roberts.

Its a good looking subs bench for impact, but I hate to say it but I expect England to be too far ahead for it to be any effect.

Quin_Dub

Webbs wrote: »

Wales: Leigh Halfpenny; George North, Jonathan Davies, Scott Williams, Liam Williams; Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Rob Evans, Ken Owens, Tomas Francis; Jake Ball, Alun Wyn Jones; Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric, Ross Moriarty.

Reps: Scott Baldwin, Nicky Smith, Samson Lee, Cory Hill, Taulupe Faletau, Gareth Davies, Sam Davies, Jamie Roberts.

Its a good looking subs bench for impact, but I hate to say it but I expect England to be too far ahead for it to be any effect.

I must say , I don't quite see the value of selecting Jamie Roberts in the 23 if he's not starting. It's not like his game is suited to the last 20 minutes when things loosen up.

FrancieBrady

oh dear! Embarrassing.
Thought the vid was fairly inoffensive in a sporting context myself.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/jmurphy/bbc-wales-forced-pull-six-nations-advert-furious-reaction/

razorblunt

FrancieBrady wrote: »

oh dear! Embarrassing.
Thought it vid was fairly inoffensive in a sporting context myself.

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/jmurphy/bbc-wales-forced-pull-six-nations-advert-furious-reaction/

One guy complaining said "its not funny and its not banter".

His opinion should instantly be discredited for using the word banter.

I'd love to see it and I'd say it is funny.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd love to see it and I'd say it is funny.

It's in the link.
https://streamable.com/iiy1e

flangemeistro

We have got to get the hashtag #WhatsGoodAboutEngland trending!!

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's in the link.
https://streamable.com/iiy1e

Oh god that's all?

That is completely harmless. Some of those reactions are incredibly precious.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh god that's all?

That is completely harmless. Some of those reactions are incredibly precious.

Yeah you just can't do that type of humour these days it seems. People don't understand satire anymore. Even just basic slagging, which men have used as a bonding tool since the beginning of time seems to be off limits.

Feelings seem to trump everything, People think that they've a right not to be offended.

A sad, joyless and divided world.