Louise O Neill on rape culture.

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 01:46PM

Agreed. What about from the other person's perspective?

If you just met someone (hook up situation) how are you to know if they have the same understanding of body language that you have? Wouldn't you need to ask about consent? Or is it safe to assume everyone has a similar idea of body language as you have?

silverharp · 09-02-2017 01:47PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ok I don't think you know what a psychology is but I'll use your term. Surely the 'amateur psychology' is in trying to work out someone's intentions without actually asking them.

in terms of personality types, Psychology is a valid term. People grow up with learned expectations "the norm" for want of a better term, the norm would be that there are 2 active parties who are giving feedback to each other just like in non sexual situations.

As an actual amateur psychologist I can tell you that people are not rational actors and will behave in line with perceived social expectations in more instances than you would imagine. Hence behaving like consent is assumed will lead to more sex than actively gaining consent. The difference between the 2 is the gray area and I think calling it all 'regret sex' is dismissive and wrong. It could equally all be called rape but I'm not taking that extremist position like you are.

The woman should educate themselves but the men should be under no obligation to actually gain consent? I find that truly fascinating.

As I said the assumption has to be that nobody is an amateur psychologist therefore if someone wants to operate outside of reasonable conventions then its up to them to express themselves or avoid situations that they cant handle

Garda: 'Chalk it up to experience' swetcheeks. Classic.

Do other posters agree with these assertions that consent can be assumed unless it's explicitly denied verbally or physically?

the patronising garda is all you but as things stand the law doesn't say that men and women need to have clicked an App which has been notarised by Dave in India. The garda will ask were you coerced? No , did he use physical force? No , did you tell him no multiple times and then gave up asking out of fear? No . What exactly would the Garda be able to do for the woman?

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 01:47PM

neonsofa wrote:

I said body language etc. Not body language alone.

Fine. Read the question as 'body language etc.'.

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 01:50PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And you could voice that irritation and work from a shared understanding of what's normal in your relationship. Completely normal relationship stuff.

The difference is that people who just met don't have much shared understanding at all. That's where problems arrise. One poster was willing to put ALL of those instances down to 'regret sex'. Amazing that such an assertion could go unchallenged.

Relationships change and can become abusive over time. If we agree that he doesn't ask every time, whats to stop him taking advantage and assuming consent incorrectly? Why does the relationship status make the assumption ok?
Or is it that he reads certain social cues that inform him that i have given consent? Which can also happen between two strangers.

midlandsmissus · 09-02-2017 01:51PM

Zulu wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Ive had two boyfriends, who, everytime we had sex, asked, 'do you want to have sex'.
Isnt it the more mature thing to do. Asking her what she wants to do? I think these kinds of things are really, really important!

WTF seriously this is getting daft. Aren't both parties engaging the in act adults? Can't both parties accept responsibility for their actions?

Did you ask him for his permission to proceed? If not, why not? Do you value your own person more than his?

Sweet baby jesus. What the fuck is wrong with this picture. Thankfully, in the real world, millions of people are mature enough to engage in sexual relations, on a daily basis, without this preposterous pandering to the concept that the women can't take responsibility for her actions. Or engaging in adult behaviour unsupervised without having to be "protected".

honest to God. That you think it's that wrong to ask someone do they want to have sex, I can't help you.

fullstop · 09-02-2017 01:52PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

honest to God. That you think it's that wrong to ask someone do they want to have sex, I can't help you.

Did you ask him the question in return, yes or no? You keep avoiding the point.

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 01:54PM

silverharp wrote:

As I said the assumption has to be that nobody is an amateur psychologist therefore if someone wants to operate outside of reasonable conventions then its up to them to express themselves or avoid situations that they cant handle

If nobody is supposed to be an amateur psychologist then wouldn't the sensible thing be to ask what the intentions are and actually gain consent?

Are you actually working from the assumption that consent is always assumed unless actively revoked? Is that why you keep mentioning psychology?

I see the amateur psychology in this scenario as being the mind reading of the other person's intentions unless you actually gain consent.

I can see your position if your assuming default consent. I disagree with it but it would explain why you keep mentioning psychology.

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 01:56PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Fine. Read the question as 'body language etc.'.

Well if we are stripped naked and in bed together and he has initiated sex it is safe for me to assume he is giving consent. If he is smiling and kissing and reacting as I initiate and he physically assists with the act...body language etc. I am not going to go into more graphic instances that illustrate implied consent.

midlandsmissus · 09-02-2017 01:58PM

fullstop wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

honest to God. That you think it's that wrong to ask someone do they want to have sex, I can't help you.

Did you ask him the question in return, yes or no? You keep avoiding the point.

I'm never bullied by anyone to reveal more about my private life than I want to.
I wonder if that poster can articulate why exactly he is offended at a boyfriend asking a girlfriend if she wants sex. What exactly is he annoyed about?

fullstop · 09-02-2017 02:02PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I'm never bullied by anyone to reveal more about my private life than I want to.
I wonder if that poster can articulate why exactly he is offended at a boyfriend asking a girlfriend if she wants sex. What exactly is he annoyed about?

You're actually full of it :rolleyes:

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 02:09PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I'm never bullied by anyone to reveal more about my private life than I want to.
I wonder if that poster can articulate why exactly he is offended at a boyfriend asking a girlfriend if she wants sex. What exactly is he annoyed about?

I had a guy who used to thank me after we had sex. I had to say it to him to stop because for me it felt like it reduced the act down to some kind of favour I had done for him. Something I gave up to him and he thanked me for. Not a mutual act of love/passion/affection but a mechanical act which I "allowed" him to do for which he thanked me afterwards. I'd imagine being asked do I want to have sex beforehand every time would feel the same for me. It is no longer an act of passion and lust and cant keep our hands off each other, having a purely physical connection that needs no words, but something we name and discuss and agree to beforehand and that imo takes all of the naturalness (?) out of it.

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 02:14PM

neonsofa wrote:

Relationships change and can become abusive over time. If we agree that he doesn't ask every time, whats to stop him taking advantage and assuming consent incorrectly? Why does the relationship status make the assumption ok? Or is it that he reads certain social cues that inform him that i have given consent? Which can also happen between two strangers.

Hold on, hold on. We're at cross purposes with consent in relationships. Consent isn't necessarily assumed in relationships and of course these things can change in relationships over time. Agreement can change and in a relationship and it's up to the couple to decide on that they agree to. That's a high standard and I agree.

You seem to have a much lower standard for hook-ups where cursory body language etc. is enough to gain consent. Why would the standard be lower in casual relationship than long term relationship?

givyjoe · 09-02-2017 02:16PM

:

neonsofa wrote: »

He made her sign a contract in advance i think so... bad example?!

Really?!:D I've never actually watched it!! Take any random erotic novel so

midlandsmissus · 09-02-2017 02:17PM

fullstop wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

What have you contributed to this thread? F all. Go back to your toybox.

Brilliant :rolleyes: Don't think it's up to you who posts in the thread...

And I dont think it's up to you say who's fill of it either. Dont give it out if you can't take it back pet. Go crying to Mammy now

fullstop · 09-02-2017 02:18PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Get over yourself. Being pushed 2-3 times on an issue about your sex life. I have the right to answer what I want. Sorry, would you like to reveal loads of details about your sex life? Will I ask you them right now? Because remember your have to answer them!

Nobody asked you to reveal loads of details about your sex life, have a bit of cop on before throwing the toys out overtime you're questioned on your, frankly, bizarre views.
You brought up a specific point that your boyfriends ask you if you want to have sex every time. You brought that up. Yet you couldn't answer the question of whether you asked them and it's an invasion of your suddenly very private sex life? Grow up.

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 02:19PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Hold on, hold on. We're at cross purposes with consent in relationships. Consent isn't necessarily assumed in relationships and of course these things can change in relationships over time. Agreement can change and in a relationship and it's up to the couple to decide on that they agree to. That's a high standard and I agree.

You seem to have a much lower standard for hook-ups where cursory body language etc. is enough to gain consent. Why would the standard be lower in casual relationship than long term relationship?

My post was asking you why you allow for implied consent in the case of a relationship (which could turn abusive at any time) and not in casual relationship ships/ONS. I was asking you to elaborate on how one would assume consent in a relationship if not based on the same social cues as in a casual relationship.

givyjoe · 09-02-2017 02:20PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

How on earth is it odd?
'Do you want to have sex?'
I think we are both mind boggled by the other.

Except you are far, far, far and away in the minority when compared with the rest of the population. I'm pretty sure the general experience I'm alluding to, is one shared by most people.. men or women.

You've said you've had 2 boyfriends, I don't think your views and experience are remotely shared by the vast majority of ADULTS.

fullstop · 09-02-2017 02:20PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

And I dont think it's up to you say who's fill of it either. Dont give it out if you can't take it back pet. Go crying to Mammy now

It wasn't me the first post was about :rolleyes: but carry on with your childish nonsense

Maguined · 09-02-2017 02:22PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I'm never bullied by anyone to reveal more about my private life than I want to.
I wonder if that poster can articulate why exactly he is offended at a boyfriend asking a girlfriend if she wants sex. What exactly is he annoyed about?

You are only being asked to reveal what you were already willing to reveal about your partner. If you find it okay to reveal your partner asks you each time "do you want to have sex" I cannot understand why you would be uncomfortable revealing whether you ask him the same in return?

fullstop · 09-02-2017 02:24PM

Maguined wrote: »

You are only being asked to reveal what you were already willing to reveal about your partner. If you find it okay to reveal your partner asks you each time "do you want to have sex" I cannot understand why you would be uncomfortable revealing whether you ask him the same in return?

Because only men are bad people, so why would she need to ask....duh.

givyjoe · 09-02-2017 02:24PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You mean fiction movies and books aren't always good role models for real life? You might be on to something there! Keep going with that train of thought

All aboard the crazy train.. The characters may be fictional, the representation of actual normal human behaviour isn't.

silverharp · 09-02-2017 02:32PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If nobody is supposed to be an amateur psychologist then wouldn't the sensible thing be to ask what the intentions are and actually gain consent?

Are you actually working from the assumption that consent is always assumed unless actively revoked? Is that why you keep mentioning psychology?

I see the amateur psychology in this scenario as being the mind reading of the other person's intentions unless you actually gain consent.

I can see your position if your assuming default consent. I disagree with it but it would explain why you keep mentioning psychology.

No because it would be an attempt to regulate all sexual behaviour in an effort to validate extreme feminists which I assume would be quickly followed by the law changing.
You are getting no support here that I can see everyone else seems to understand how mutually agreed sex happens which doesnt need to involve lawyers

pumpkin4life · 09-02-2017 02:47PM

Why is it the users who clearly have little to no sexual experience are the ones the most into telling us what consent actually is?

:rolleyes:

Boom_Bap · 09-02-2017 03:02PM

midlandmissus and fullstop - quit the arguing with each other please

FYI - You might see posts disappearing from the thread as well, one of our serial re-reg's is about so their posts are being removed.

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 03:19PM

neonsofa wrote:

My post was asking you why you allow for implied consent in the case of a relationship (which could turn abusive at any time) and not in casual relationship ships/ONS. I was asking you to elaborate on how one would assume consent in a relationship if not based on the same social cues as in a casual relationship.

A relationship affords the opportunity to establish the agreement over time. It's always subject to change so consent isn't necessarily assumed. There's trust involved which means you can make an agreement over time and then change the agreement and so on.

Very little of that applies to people who just met or don't know each other well. Time, trust and an agreement. Anybevrn then, as you keep pointing out, consent can't necessarily be assumed.

Without those elements above, you to be willing to substitute body language etc. as if they're equal or even similarly reliable

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 03:21PM

givyjoe wrote:

All aboard the crazy train.. The characters may be fictional, the representation of actual normal human behaviour isn't.

I hope you never see an action movie, or porn. You'll probably think it's real life behaviour too?

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 03:39PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

A relationship affords the opportunity to establish the agreement over time. It's always subject to change so consent isn't necessarily assumed. There's trust involved which means you can make an agreement over time and then change the agreement and so on.

Very little of that applies to people who just met or don't know each other well. Time, trust and an agreement. Anybevrn then, as you keep pointing out, consent can't necessarily be assumed.

Without those elements above, you to be willing to substitute body language etc. as if they're equal or even similarly reliable

If a relationship is ever changing then any agreement too is ever changing and so how can you assume consent in a relationship without explicitly asking all the time? Either you have to ask all the time regardless of relationship status/whether it irritates the partner, or there is room for consent to be assumed based on the context. And most would claim it is the latter. And this applies to casual relationships and ONS too.

hatrickpatrick · 09-02-2017 03:40PM

Am I alone in feeling that this thread has jumped the shark?

(Can the shark's consent to being jumped can be assumed if he doesn't try to eat you in mid-air?)

givyjoe · 09-02-2017 03:48PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I hope you never see an action movie, or porn. You'll probably think it's real life behaviour too?

You mean Arnie isn't really the Terminator :eek: ?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 09-02-2017 04:05PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

If 80% of women were getting into college in Ireland, and only 20% of men were, I would introduce a gender quota for each gender, because who wants that kind of imbalance? Who would want to keep the other gender out of opportunities.

That's never going to fix the problem. It's not a solution. Quota's are fundamentally flawed, they are idiotic and should be scrapped. Convert that energy into focusing on a fixing the underlying issues.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Ive had two boyfriends, who, everytime we had sex, asked, 'do you want to have sex'.
Isnt it the more mature thing to do. Asking her what she wants to do? I think these kinds of things are really, really important!

This reminds me of that scene in demolition man where John Spartan is asked if he would like to have sex. His reaction is about right when he learns that "the transfer of bodily fluids has been outlawed". It's a strange concept for most people, asking your OH if they want to have sex. This idea that consent cannot be assumed is where feminism is out of touch with reality. It's an alien concept.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

You misquote me. I said if there were a scenario of severe imbalance in in education similar to the ratio in the government, 80% one gender allowed in, and 20% the other, I would introduce a gender quota for each gender.
This similar imbalance ratio does not exist.

Nowhere in your original quote did you mention "allowed". If only 20% of a gender is "allowed" join a company, position or anything, then that's incorrect. The percentage amount does not matter, even if it's 50/50. It's wrong.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

How on earth is it odd?
'Do you want to have sex?'
I think we are both mind boggled by the other.

Asking somebody "do you want to have sex" is a very unusual question to ask, it's not very common in wider society.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I'm never bullied by anyone to reveal more about my private life than I want to.
I wonder if that poster can articulate why exactly he is offended at a boyfriend asking a girlfriend if she wants sex. What exactly is he annoyed about?

The poster is not offended, but by answering his question, you will validate or invalidate your previous points. As you have not answered this, it implies that you did not ask your OH if he wanted to have sex.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

And I dont think it's up to you say who's fill of it either. Dont give it out if you can't take it back pet. Go crying to Mammy now

What's with the attitude? Is this how you normally react when something doesn't go your way?

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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