Louise O Neill on rape culture.

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 12:45PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm in a long term relationship so my partner and i know where we stand.

In the scenario above consent wasn't established, it was assumed. It was probably correctly assumed which is fine. When consent is incorrectly assumed, then what do you call it? - hint, the answer might be rape.

Just on your first point, rape does happen in (bad) relationships too. And being in a relationship in itself is not actually implied consent. Its just a point to consider when you are actually discussing implied/assumed consent. How far does the assumption go. (I personally think it comes down to common sense and body language but thought I'd mention it given the nature of the discussion!)

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 12:49PM

givyjoe wrote:

Quite simply, they person says stop.. either with their voice, their limbs or possibly body language. I don't tend to have sex with my eyes closed the whole time, so if per chance the I get to penetration and the woman doesn't want to continue, there should be some fairly obvious body language clues. Clues such as no reciprocal touching, moaning and well emm.. lubrication.. for crying out loud, you only need to look at her face.

So is consent assumed up to the point where someone explicitly says 'stop' either verbally or physically? Even with strangers?

givyjoe wrote:

How on earth do you incorrectly assume consent? Excluding situations where some literally has no use of their limbs and or vocal chords..

The answer to this question is contained in the answer to the question I asked above.

givyjoe wrote:

This really isn't rocket science.

You wouldn't think so but our baseline assumptions might be different. That's why we arrive at different conclusions.

givyjoe · 09-02-2017 12:52PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So is consent assumed up to the point where someone explicitly says 'stop' either verbally or physically? Even with strangers?

The answer to this question is contained in the answer to the question I asked above.

You wouldn't think so but our baseline assumptions might be different. That's why we arrive at different conclusions.

Have you ever actually had casual sex? When you first slept with your husband, did you actually utter the words 'you may now enter me'.. did he ask 'may i have sex with you'? That's the completely ludicrous and impractical sex your arguments are implying.

I've literally never asked a woman 'can i have sex with you', funnily enough I've never been charged with Rape or sexual assault.

midlandsmissus · 09-02-2017 12:59PM

Wibbs wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I would like you to think in reverse, the government stands at 80% female 20% male due to political parties nominating predominantly female candidates, (not to how the public is voting). How would you feel in this country?

The same way I feel about the growing gender divide in education. Ask why and seek ways to improve the situation, but not by introducing preferential quotas.

If 80% of women were getting into college in Ireland, and only 20% of men were, I would introduce a gender quota for each gender, because who wants that kind of imbalance? Who would want to keep the other gender out of opportunities.

Wibbs · 09-02-2017 01:06PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

If 80% of women were getting into college in Ireland, and only 20% of men were, I would introduce a gender quota for each gender, because who wants that kind of imbalance?

and this is where we differ. Quotas at best are a simplistic quick we look like we're doing something "fix" for more complex underlying reasons. So young men would continue to under perform in certain educational areas, but would get a pass to the detriment of young women who weren't. The problem(s) would remain fundamentally the same.

midlandsmissus · 09-02-2017 01:07PM

givyjoe wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So is consent assumed up to the point where someone explicitly says 'stop' either verbally or physically? Even with strangers?

The answer to this question is contained in the answer to the question I asked above.

You wouldn't think so but our baseline assumptions might be different. That's why we arrive at different conclusions.

Have you ever actually had casual sex? When you first slept with your husband, did you actually utter the words 'you may now enter me'.. did he ask 'may i have sex with you'? That's the completely ludicrous and impractical sex your arguments are implying.

I've literally never asked a woman 'can i have sex with you', funnily enough I've never been charged with Rape or sexual assault.

Ive had two boyfriends, who, everytime we had sex, asked, 'do you want to have sex'.
Isnt it the more mature thing to do. Asking her what she wants to do? I think these kinds of things are really, really important!

givyjoe · 09-02-2017 01:09PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

If 80% of women were getting into college in Ireland, and only 20% of men were, I would introduce a gender quota for each gender, because who wants that kind of imbalance? Who would want to keep the other gender out of opportunities.

Sound, I'm looking to get into HR and its what.. roughly 75/25 in 'favour' of women. Instead of actually digging deeper into why this is, I'm just going to assume its discrimination being the reason for gender imbalance. (Sarcasm of course)

On education, so instead of letting the best in, whether male or female.. we just impose quotas. Never mind addressing the reasons why females are performing better, just impose blanket quotas to 'fix it' and ultimately potentially a deny better qualified/motivated and educated female(s) into college. Great idea.

silverharp · 09-02-2017 01:11PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Why are you only focusing on women?

for brevity and Ive yet to hear of a case of man going to a police station under the very limited set of conditions you are talking about.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And the men who do come across it can end up being accused of rape, potentially having committed rape. And they received bad info about assumed consent and 'it's not rape unless she says 'stop''.

I'm not suggesting anyone should be an amateur psychologist (I presume you mean mind reader). I'm suggesting it's better to actually gain consent rather than try to read minds.

No I meant amateur psychologist, nobody has mind reading abilities. If they can be accused of rape then maybe the women in these cases ought to have educated themselves on their responsibilities and not create the confusion in the first place. I fail to see the difference if I describe the situation as regret sex as in she regrets not giving any indication that that she didn't want to have sex even though she sent out signals that she did in the time proceeding and at no time said no, turned away or otherwise pushed the man away , you know like a normal person would do. Honestly such a woman should be told to chalk it up to experience.

midlandsmissus · 09-02-2017 01:12PM

Wibbs wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

If 80% of women were getting into college in Ireland, and only 20% of men were, I would introduce a gender quota for each gender, because who wants that kind of imbalance?

and this is where we differ. Quotas at best are a simplistic quick we look like we're doing something "fix" for more complex underlying reasons. So young men would continue to under perform in certain educational areas, but would get a pass to the detriment of young women who weren't. The problem(s) would remain fundamentally the same.

You misquote me. I said if there were a scenario of severe imbalance in in education similar to the ratio in the government, 80% one gender allowed in, and 20% the other, I would introduce a gender quota for each gender.
This similar imbalance ratio does not exist.

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 01:12PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Ive had two boyfriends, who, everytime we had sex, asked, 'do you want to have sex'.
Isnt it the more mature thing to do. Asking her what she wants to do? I think these kinds of things are really, really important!

I'd find that weird and unnecessary to be honest, but if it works for you!
Boyfriends have always made sure they know I am comfortable but it hasn't been asked explicitly. Most mature adults are also able to read the context of the situation and act accordingly.

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 01:12PM

neonsofa wrote:

Just on your first point, rape does happen in (bad) relationships too. And being in a relationship in itself is not actually implied consent. Its just a point to consider when you are actually discussing implied/assumed consent. How far does the assumption go. (I personally think it comes down to common sense and body language but thought I'd mention it given the nature of the discussion!)

I completely agree that consent isn't automatically assumed in relationships. My partner and I have an understanding about these things which we've worked out over time.

If consent can't be reliably assumed in a relationship, then it really can't be assumed or reliably judged on a wing and a prayer, between people who just met.

givyjoe · 09-02-2017 01:13PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Ive had two boyfriends, who, everytime we had sex, asked, 'do you want to have sex'.
Isnt it the more mature thing to do. Asking her what she wants to do? I think these kinds of things are really, really important!

No, it's got nothing to do with maturity. It strikes me as extremely odd, mechanical and reducing sex to a transaction. God forbid there should be some spontaneity in sex and romance etc.

Tell me, those 50 shades books so many woman seem to be creaming themselves over.. does Mr Grey ask his squeeze if she 'wants to have sex'? Have you ever read a book, watched a film (aimed at women by the way) were the man or woman, asks the other if they 'want to have sex'. Jesus wept.

Honestly, I'm literally open mouthed at the bonkers views in here trying to justify this non existent rape culture.

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 01:15PM

givyjoe wrote: »

No, it's got nothing to do with maturity. It strikes me as extremely odd, mechanical and reducing sex to a transaction. God forbid there should be some spontaneity in sex and romance etc.

Tell me, those 50 shades books so many woman seem to be creaming themselves over.. does Mr Grey ask his squeeze if she 'wants to have sex'? Have you ever read a book, watched a film (aimed at women by the way) were the man or woman, asks the other if they 'want to have sex'. Jesus wept.

Honestly, I'm literally open mouthed at the bonkers views in here trying to justify this non existent rape culture.

He made her sign a contract in advance i think so... bad example?!

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 01:16PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I completely agree that consent isn't automatically assumed in relationships. My partner and I have an understanding about these things which we've worked out over time.

If consent can't be reliably assumed in a relationship, then it really can't be assumed or reliably judged on a wing and a prayer, between people who just met.

It can't be reliably assumed based purely on the status of the relationship itself. It can be reliably assumed based on other things- body language etc.

midlandsmissus · 09-02-2017 01:18PM

givyjoe wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Ive had two boyfriends, who, everytime we had sex, asked, 'do you want to have sex'.
Isnt it the more mature thing to do. Asking her what she wants to do? I think these kinds of things are really, really important!

No, it's got nothing to do with maturity. It strikes me as extremely odd, mechanical and reducing sex to a transaction. God forbid there should be some spontaneity in sex and romance etc.

Tell me, those 50 shades books so many woman seem to be creaming themselves over.. does Mr Grey ask his squeeze if she 'wants to have sex'? Have you ever read a book, watched a film (aimed at women by the way) were the man or woman, asks the other if they 'want to have sex'. Jesus wept.

Honestly, I'm literally open mouthed at the bonkers views in here trying to justify this non existent rape culture.

How on earth is it odd?
'Do you want to have sex?'
I think we are both mind boggled by the other.

newport2 · 09-02-2017 01:20PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

How on earth is it odd?
'Do you want to have sex?'
I think we are both mind boggled by the other.

But you said only he asked, and only if you wanted to. He didn't say he wanted to. Did you ask him back or assume consent?

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 01:24PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

How on earth is it odd?
'Do you want to have sex?'
I think we are both mind boggled by the other.

It would be akin to him asking (every time) can he hold your hand and can he stroke your hair and can he put his arm around you- some things are just spontaneous displays of affection and if you are at the point where you are in bed together after all of the above and stripping each other down asking "do you want to have sex?" does seem a bit odd to me. No judgement like just I can see how it would be odd to people. Now if ye were sitting on a council eating pizza and he asked out of the blue that's not as odd.

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 01:25PM

silverharp wrote:

No I meant amateur psychologist, nobody has mind reading abilities. If they can be accused of rape then maybe the women in these cases ought to have educated themselves on their responsibilities and not create the confusion in the first place.

Ok I don't think you know what a psychology is but I'll use your term. Surely the 'amateur psychology' is in trying to work out someone's intentions without actually asking them.

As an actual amateur psychologist I can tell you that people are not rational actors and will behave in line with perceived social expectations in more instances than you would imagine. Hence behaving like consent is assumed will lead to more sex than actively gaining consent. The difference between the 2 is the gray area and I think calling it all 'regret sex' is dismissive and wrong. It could equally all be called rape but I'm not taking that extremist position like you are.

The woman should educate themselves but the men should be under no obligation to actually gain consent? I find that truly fascinating.

silverharp wrote:

I fail to see the difference if I describe the situation as regret sex as in she regrets not giving any indication that that she didn't want to have sex even though she sent out signals that she did in the time proceeding and at no time said no, turned away or otherwise pushed the man away , you know like a normal person would do. Honestly such a woman should be told to chalk it up to experience.

Garda: 'Chalk it up to experience' swetcheeks. Classic.

Do other posters agree with these assertions that consent can be assumed unless it's explicitly denied verbally or physically?

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 01:28PM

neonsofa wrote:

Most mature adults are also able to read the context of the situation and act accordingly.

And the rest of the adult population? Mildly autistic people can be perfectly functioning but needn't get those social cues you're suggesting should be relied upon.

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 01:32PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Garda: 'Chalk it up to experience' swetcheeks. Classic.

Do other posters agree with these assertions that consent can be assumed unless it's explicitly denied verbally or physically?

No, there are nuances to it and saying that consent can be assumed unless verbally (or physically) denied is just as black and white as saying consent needs to be verbally given every single time.

midlandsmissus · 09-02-2017 01:32PM

neonsofa wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

How on earth is it odd?
'Do you want to have sex?'
I think we are both mind boggled by the other.

It would be akin to him asking (every time) can he hold your hand and can he stroke your hair and can he put his arm around you- some things are just spontaneous displays of affection and if you are at the point where you are in bed together after all of the above and stripping each other down asking "do you want to have sex?" does seem a bit odd to me. No judgement like just I can see how it would be odd to people. Now if ye were sitting on a council eating pizza and he asked out of the blue that's not as odd.

I see it as a very caring thing to do.

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 01:33PM

givyjoe wrote:

Tell me, those 50 shades books so many woman seem to be creaming themselves over.. does Mr Grey ask his squeeze if she 'wants to have sex'? Have you ever read a book, watched a film (aimed at women by the way) were the man or woman, asks the other if they 'want to have sex'. Jesus wept.

You mean fiction movies and books aren't always good role models for real life? You might be on to something there! Keep going with that train of thought

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 01:34PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I see it as a very caring thing to do.

Like I said, whatever works for you, no judgement. I would find it unnecessary and probably irritating after a while.

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 01:36PM

neonsofa wrote:

It can't be reliably assumed based purely on the status of the relationship itself. It can be reliably assumed based on other things- body language etc.

Relying on body language is a recipe for disaster! Cultural differences aside, Individual difference between people means body language isn't reliable for much at all. It's fine if the assumption of consent is correct. What do you call it if the assumption of consent (based on body language) is incorrect?

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 01:36PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And the rest of the adult population? Mildly autistic people can be perfectly functioning but needn't get those social cues you're suggesting should be relied upon.

They can ask for consent as they cannot read social cues.

pumpkin4life · 09-02-2017 01:37PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You mean fiction movies and books aren't always good role models for real life? You might be on to something there! Keep going with that train of thought

Watch what people do, over what they say.

There is a big demand for these books. And it ain't because we're reading Tolstoy level prose like.

It's catnip for wans basically.

neonsofa · 09-02-2017 01:37PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Relying on body language is a recipe for disaster! Cultural differences aside, Individual difference between people means body language isn't reliable for much at all. It's fine if the assumption of consent is correct. What do you call it if the assumption of consent (based on body language) is incorrect?

I said body language etc. Not body language alone.

Zulu · 09-02-2017 01:39PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I would like you to think in reverse, the government stands at 80% female 20% male due to political parties nominating predominantly female candidates, (not to how the public is voting). How would you feel in this country?

How would I feel?
You are incorrectly assuming that I (apparently like you) would have an issue with a woman I voted for representing me. I don't.

So if the dail was 100% women, I wouldn't take issue as long as they were representing my interests. I might ask how come there's no men bothered or interested in running for election, and if I believed that there was an active discrimination against men I'd be outraged, and lobby to have laws introduced to protect against such discrimination, but I wouldn't seek to introduce gender discrimination.

Ultimately I've no issue with a women representing me - can you say the same?

El_Duderino 09 · 09-02-2017 01:42PM

neonsofa wrote:

Like I said, whatever works for you, no judgement. I would find it unnecessary and probably irritating after a while.

And you could voice that irritation and work from a shared understanding of what's normal in your relationship. Completely normal relationship stuff.

The difference is that people who just met don't have much shared understanding at all. That's where problems arrise. One poster was willing to put ALL of those instances down to 'regret sex'. Amazing that such an assertion could go unchallenged.

Zulu · 09-02-2017 01:44PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Ive had two boyfriends, who, everytime we had sex, asked, 'do you want to have sex'.
Isnt it the more mature thing to do. Asking her what she wants to do? I think these kinds of things are really, really important!

WTF seriously this is getting daft. Aren't both parties engaging the in act adults? Can't both parties accept responsibility for their actions?

Did you ask him for his permission to proceed? If not, why not? Do you value your own person more than his?

Sweet baby jesus. What the fuck is wrong with this picture. Thankfully, in the real world, millions of people are mature enough to engage in sexual relations, on a daily basis, without this preposterous pandering to the concept that the women can't take responsibility for her actions. Or engaging in adult behaviour unsupervised without having to be "protected".

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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