VW emissions software update - disaster

benny79 · 07-02-2017 11:13AM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's even more ridiculous when you see what the Americans are getting in compensation for the SAME issue.

But then, VW is German and no doubt contributes significantly to their tax take, Germany runs the EU, so.........

As an aside though, is it ALL VW group cars sold during a given period that are affected, regardless of engine size? My A6 being an import means I'll never get a letter (thankfully it seems!) but as it's a 2010 I'm guessing it might be affected as well?

I have a 09 passat 140 bhp Tdi import and I got a letter!.. I have it booked in for the 24th I asked what the story was and they said it will only take an hour to fix as its just a software update! but Im thinking how could there be such a scandal if it only an hour to fix and just a simple software update!

So are people recommending not to get it done?

I also noticed that the second market regards VW has been affected as they have really lost there valve my 09 Passat are going for 4 and 5 grand now :mad: disgraceful as the sole reason I bought VW was because they hold there valve.

ABC101 · 07-02-2017 11:18AM

KCross wrote: »

Golfgorfield wrote: »

I have phoned VW who stated they guarantee the car should feel exactly the same... just like they guaranteed all their engines were within emissions laws........

This was one statement that I never understood from VW and always felt they were further covering up.

If there truly was no difference in power to make the emissions clean why put the defeat device in there in the first place!?

It seemed inevitable to me that the power would reduce after the fix, particularly for higher powered models.

Good question indeed.
However they lied to the regulators about the emission levels.
Now they are lying again... to the owners about the performance level of the car after the fix / update.
I never could understand how a 2lt Golf R can produce almost 300bhp and yet have less emissions than most other 2lt petrol cars, road tax around 590 euro.
For example a petrol 2.5lt 4 cylinder Subaru Outback has a road tax of 1200 euro / year... but it is a modern engine producing about 165 bhp.
The only way you can produce more power... is burning more fuel... which means more emissions.
A fact most regulators don't seem to be able to understand.

colm_mcm · 07-02-2017 11:19AM

benny79 wrote: »

I also noticed that the second market regards VW has been affected as they have really lost there valve my 09 Passat are going for 4 and 5 grand now :mad: disgraceful as the sole reason I bought VW was because they hold there valve.

The emissions scandal has had little or no offer on the values of 8 year old cars, most of which aren't affected by the scandal.
The uk market has plenty to export, (like your own), this is the biggest factor in the price of 09 passats. Also there's plenty sheds for sale too. The cheapest examples are always cheap for a reason.

benny79 · 07-02-2017 11:23AM

colm_mcm wrote: »

The emissions scandal has had little or no offer on the values of 8 year old cars, most of which aren't affected by the scandal.
The uk market has plenty to export, (like your own), this is the biggest factor in the price of 09 passats. Also there's plenty sheds for sale too. The cheapest examples are always cheap for a reason.

Yes but mine is now 8 years old and has been affected by the scandal, but I get what you're saying about second hand market and price..

dar83 · 07-02-2017 11:55AM

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Any chance of a bit of info... ive been semi ridiculed enough for being so stupid to have got the car done in the first place!

Apologies, the very person you quoted is the man you need to talk to.

http://www.daltons.ie

colm_mcm · 07-02-2017 11:58AM

ABC101 wrote: »

Good question indeed.
However they lied to the regulators about the emission levels.
Now they are lying again... to the owners about the performance level of the car after the fix / update.
I never could understand how a 2lt Golf R can produce almost 300bhp and yet have less emissions than most other 2lt petrol cars, road tax around 590 euro.
For example a petrol 2.5lt 4 cylinder Subaru Outback has a road tax of 1200 euro / year... but it is a modern engine producing about 165 bhp.
The only way you can produce more power... is burning more fuel... which means more emissions.
A fact most regulators don't seem to be able to understand.

Efficiency comes into it too though. Power and fuel consumption aren't directly related.

benny79 · 07-02-2017 12:01PM

colm_mcm wrote: »

Efficiency comes into it too though. Power and fuel consumption aren't directly related.

Colm would you advise against getting the update done?

Golfgorfield · 07-02-2017 12:32PM

Current situation is the car is now back in the main dealer, they have provided a high spec replacement car and have told me they are going to fully investigate and test drive the car.

the test drive will as i pointed out be pointless as they have nothing to compare it to....

I've a feeling im going to be disappointed, but im determined to put up a hell of a fight for some kind of resolution.

0lddog · 07-02-2017 12:38PM

colm_mcm wrote: »

Efficiency comes into it too though. Power and fuel consumption aren't directly related.

Also, diesel engines are thermodynamically inherently more efficient than petrol engines

Special Circumstances · 07-02-2017 01:00PM

0lddog wrote: »

Also, diesel engines are thermodynamically inherently more efficient than petrol engines

Prius atkinson cycle 1.8 isn't that far off average small capacity diesels in terms of thermal efficiency.

Edit... seems to be better than many!

ABC101 · 07-02-2017 01:38PM

colm_mcm wrote: »

ABC101 wrote: »

Good question indeed.
However they lied to the regulators about the emission levels.
Now they are lying again... to the owners about the performance level of the car after the fix / update.
I never could understand how a 2lt Golf R can produce almost 300bhp and yet have less emissions than most other 2lt petrol cars, road tax around 590 euro.
For example a petrol 2.5lt 4 cylinder Subaru Outback has a road tax of 1200 euro / year... but it is a modern engine producing about 165 bhp.
The only way you can produce more power... is burning more fuel... which means more emissions.
A fact most regulators don't seem to be able to understand.

Efficiency comes into it too though. Power and fuel consumption aren't directly related.

I agree, and I also agree that new designs / approaches have been undertaken in improving efficiencies, ie. Variable vane turbo's, direct injection, VVTi, stroke / bore ratio, different combustion cycles the list goes on and on etc.
But these improvements in efficiency tend to be more incremental, 2% here, 5% here, 10% there etc.
But a 100% increase in power (i.e. a typical 2lt 150 bhp, vrs a 2lt 300bhp) with a corresponding 30% or 40% drop in emissions is just too good to be true if you ask me.
Some manufacturers have lied about emissions, but they were also lying about fuel consumption, how many posters on boards have stated ... my car is stated to give X mpg, but the best I'm getting is 75% of X at best.
We both know very little in life is something for free.   Most designs are a trade off / compromise to get a improvement in one area for a decrease in another.
If that was the case all manufacturers would just dump their current designs and follow the example of VW.
Maybe a 80% increase in power for the same emissions could be possible with new technologies vrs and older design.
But even if you had a engine which was 100% efficient you are still limited by stoichiometric parameters and a 1 lt of fuel contains x amount of energy.   Its not as if a liter of petrol in a VW fuel tank suddenly has 2X the energy amount vrs a liter of petrol in a Ford fuel tank.

As for the OP, whether to get the update reversed it depends really.
If the update improves the emissions then it could make the car slightly more sellable, saying it has been sorted by VW and all compliant.   The majority of car owners just drive from A to B, not really interested in a 10% increase in performance.
If in the near future the NCT change their testing and start looking for NOx and particulate matter then you might be best off going with the update.

unkel · 07-02-2017 01:44PM

KCross wrote: »

This was one statement that I never understood from VW and always felt they were further covering up.

If there truly was no difference in power to make the emissions clean why put the defeat device in there in the first place!?

It seemed inevitable to me that the power would reduce after the fix, particularly for higher powered models.

+1

You can only get NOx down if you make the car more efficient and / or less powerful. I'd love to see some emissions / dyno tests before and after the "fix". Surely someone has done this?

Golfgorfield · 07-02-2017 01:44PM

ABC101 wrote: »

I agree, and I also agree that new designs / approaches have been undertaken in improving efficiencies, ie. Variable vane turbo's, direct injection, VVTi, stroke / bore ratio, different combustion cycles the list goes on and on etc.
But these improvements in efficiency tend to be more incremental, 2% here, 5% here, 10% there etc.
But a 100% increase in power (i.e. a typical 2lt 150 bhp, vrs a 2lt 300bhp) with a corresponding 30% or 40% drop in emissions is just too good to be true if you ask me.
Some manufacturers have lied about emissions, but they were also lying about fuel consumption, how many posters on boards have stated ... my car is stated to give X mpg, but the best I'm getting is 75% of X at best.
We both know very little in life is something for free.   Most designs are a trade off / compromise to get a improvement in one area for a decrease in another.
If that was the case all manufacturers would just dump their current designs and follow the example of VW.
Maybe a 80% increase in power for the same emissions could be possible with new technologies vrs and older design.
But even if you had a engine which was 100% efficient you are still limited by stoichiometric parameters and a 1 lt of fuel contains x amount of energy.   Its not as if a liter of petrol in a VW fuel tank suddenly has 2X the energy amount vrs a liter of petrol in a Ford fuel tank.

As for the OP, whether to get the update reversed it depends really.
If the update improves the emissions then it could make the car slightly more sellable, saying it has been sorted by VW and all compliant.   The majority of car owners just drive from A to B, not really interested in a 10% increase in performance.
If in the near future the NCT change their testing and start looking for NOx and particulate matter then you might be best off going with the update.

Given my car, a Golf GTD, prospective buyers (me included) would be more concerned the car is at its full performance, rather than worrying if its emissions are high etc. This is my gripe, i saved hard for years to buy a GTD, found a great one and bought it based on its driving experience, now thats been taken away completely!

Golfgorfield · 07-02-2017 01:45PM

unkel wrote: »

+1

You can only get NOx down if you make the car more efficient and / or less powerful. I'd love to see some emissions / dyno tests before and after the "fix". Surely someone has done this?

Ive trawled forums far and wide and cant find anyone thats done a before and after.

ABC101 · 07-02-2017 02:20PM

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Given my car, a Golf GTD, prospective buyers (me included) would be more concerned the car is at its full performance, rather than worrying if its emissions are high etc. This is my gripe, i saved hard for years to buy a GTD, found a great one and bought it based on its driving experience, now thats been taken away completely!

From the EVO website article I looked up, they state 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, 181 bhp and 45 mpg.
Are you getting anywhere near those figures?
Or has power gone down but your fuel efficiency increased?
Unless you get proper real world verifiable / proven figures it is very hard to tell exactly, even if you know from driving the car it's characteristics have changed dramatically.
Going back to VW and stating that the car is not the same because it just feels different is not going to cut the mustard.
You would have to get repeatable / verifiable / proven figures for the engine's performance and have them plotted / compared to what the design parameters are supposed to be.
Then you could go back to VW and state I am being cheated twice, the first time I bought the car, the second time now that the car is updated.
If you are correct, sounds like you have gone from a GTD to a D.

Special Circumstances · 07-02-2017 02:27PM

Don't you reduce NOx by making a car LESS efficient rather than more efficient? You need to run richer (producing more CO2 and more particulates) to reduce less NOx?

High temperatures and lean mixes are good for efficiency but produce a lot of NOx.

ABC101 · 07-02-2017 02:33PM

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Don't you reduce NOx by making a car LESS efficient rather than more efficient? You need to run richer (producing more CO2 and more particulates) to reduce less NOx?

High temperatures and lean mixes are good for efficiency but produce a lot of NOx.

Also it depends on the type of fuel burned as well.
Biodiesel is not the same as Ultra Low Sulphur diesel. Some fuels contain more nitrogen in the fuel etc.
But as a general rule, higher combustion pressures and temperatures favor Nox production.
As diesels run at higher compression ratio's (than petrol) they produce more Nox.

Buffman · 07-02-2017 02:38PM

ml100 wrote: »

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/volkswagen-emissions-scandal/8-reports-of-volkswagen-tiguans-losing-power-after-ea189-emissions-fix/

Seems to be an issue with 2.0 dsg

Wow! Just reading through the dozens of comments below that article would put me off ever buying a VAG, let alone getting this 'fix' done! Anyone thinking of getting it done should have a thorough read.

unkel wrote: »

+1
I'd love to see some emissions / dyno tests before and after the "fix". Surely someone has done this?

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Ive trawled forums far and wide and cant find anyone thats done a before and after.

One of the guys in those comments found a chap who'd dynoed a 2.0 A5 before and after. Some substantial losses of power and torque between 1600-2600 RPM according to his data.

BigAndyG on 5 December 2016
I had good look around on the web after my second (ignored) reminder and found someone who had actually had his car dynoed before and after the update. I too do not know why none of the motoring press or Watchdog or... haven't done this. Anyway the results are quite damning and back up a lot of what has been said here about ~1500-2500 rpm and loss of power and torque. I have graphed these plots (as best I can) and that's exactly what they seem to show. I sent them to Audi and they wouldn't engage on showing me their test data but just trotted out the old "maximum torque is not affected" line - which is true but very misleading for driveability etc.They also mention an increased EGR rate! I've put the graphs at this link:

1drv.ms/b/s!AvcWk_HHJ7e2lSKCPGtHBV19b90L

Golfgorfield · 07-02-2017 02:39PM

ABC101 wrote: »

From the EVO website article I looked up, they state 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, 181 bhp and 45 mpg.
Are you getting anywhere near those figures?
Or has power gone down but your fuel efficiency increased?
Unless you get proper real world verifiable / proven figures it is very hard to tell exactly, even if you know from driving the car it's characteristics have changed dramatically.
Going back to VW and stating that the car is not the same because it just feels different is not going to cut the mustard.
You would have to get repeatable / verifiable / proven figures for the engine's performance and have them plotted / compared to what the design parameters are supposed to be.
Then you could go back to VW and state I am being cheated twice, the first time I bought the car, the second time now that the car is updated.
If you are correct, sounds like you have gone from a GTD to a D.

My car is the 170bhp variant.

My previous car was a GT 140bhp golf and my GTD now feels slower and less torquey than the old 140bhp Golf i had.

I could get it Dyno'd yes but this is costly, based on VW stating in writing nothing should change then this may be my best route to go if they done resolve it in the garage.

KCross · 07-02-2017 02:42PM

Golfgorfield wrote: »

My car is the 170bhp variant.

My previous car was a GT 140bhp golf and my GTD now feels slower and less torquey than the old 140bhp Golf i had.

I could get it Dyno'd yes but this is costly, based on VW stating in writing nothing should change then this may be my best route to go if they done resolve it in the garage.

You have a 7yr old car so they will probably say that you cant expect the car to have day 1 stats.

The only hope, I'd say you had, was to have a before and after dyno done and then their letter showing that it would not affect it.... the horse has bolted now!

Your opinion or subjective comments on power loss will be duly ignored, I'd say.

privateBeavis · 07-02-2017 02:56PM

my VRS has the 170bhp engine, had a call about bringing it in for the "fix" but said I'd wait until I'm in for a service.
Reading this thread I think I'll request they leave well enough alone..!

They can't force everyone to update, so why would you bother is there is any chance of reduced performance. What are they going to do anyway move cars up a tax band that didn't get "fixed"... not likely.

.. by the way can you get the check the software versions somehow (via ODB perhaps) so can verify its not been updated?

Leprechaun77 · 07-02-2017 03:18PM

I have a 170bhp variant due for service now....totally paranoid based on that graph above showing decreased performance in the lower bands. I am no expert but how can they come up with a solution to this problem and say it has no effect on performance....would they not have done this at outset if it were that easy?

Group-buy Dyno needed here.

gctest50 · 07-02-2017 03:20PM

privateBeavis wrote: »

.........They can't force everyone to update,................

VW will have to comply, they'll have to get on to the insurance companies

There'll be a little ticky box on the insurance website "Is your car running offical firmware/software etc"

Once they get it in writing, game over if you have it re-mapped and you crash

ABC101 · 07-02-2017 03:21PM

Even if you got the car dyn'od before the update VW could still refuse to accept it as they would be unlikely to accept the test results of some independent tester.

They would insist using their technician, on their machine at a time and place of their choosing etc

In addition VW could also argue that a 7 year old car is not going to produce the same performance as a new car.

Another cop out would be is that the performance drop is due to some other technical issue I.e dirty DPF or blocked manifold or faulty egr valve turbo problem or what not etc. If you want your GTD back you are going to have to spend lots more money on our spares etc.

VW only fessed up when confronted by proven, verifiable, repeatable test data and only then after a prolonged period of browbeating by the relevant legal authorities who started grinding and grinding and grinding until VW broke.

You have my sympathy, but if I were you I'd just move on the car quickly, or else go in with some class action law suit etc

I just don't think it's worth the hassle for a 7 year old car, but that's just my opinion.

Coincidentally, would you buy a VW again or change to a BMW etc? If they offered you a good trade in would you accept it for a newer one?

Golfgorfield · 07-02-2017 03:25PM

ABC101 wrote: »

Even if you got the car dyn'od before the update VW could still refuse to accept it as they would be unlikely to accept the test results of some independent tester.

They would insist using their technician, on their machine at a time and place of their choosing etc

In addition VW could also argue that a 7 year old car is not going to produce the same performance as a new car.

Another cop out would be is that the performance drop is due to some other technical issue I.e dirty DPF or blocked manifold or faulty egr valve turbo problem or what not etc. If you want your GTD back you are going to have to spend lots more money on our spares etc.

VW only fessed up when confronted by proven, verifiable, repeatable test data and only then after a prolonged period of browbeating by the relevant legal authorities who started grinding and grinding and grinding until VW broke.

You have my sympathy, but if I were you I'd just move on the car quickly, or else go in with some class action law suit etc

I just don't think it's worth the hassle for a 7 year old car, but that's just my opinion.

Coincidentally, would you buy a VW again or change to a BMW etc? If they offered you a good trade in would you accept it for a newer one?

I only got the car in November, after months of looking for a good one!

7yr old car it may be, but at 60,000 miles with a Full VWSH its a damn goof 7 year old car that i paid top dollar for. I am entitled to have the car back as i left it with the garage as per their written confirmation!

privateBeavis · 07-02-2017 03:29PM

gctest50 wrote: »

VW will have to comply, they'll have to get on to the insurance companies

There'll be a little ticky box on the insurance website "Is your car running offical firmware/software etc"

Once they get it in writing, game over if you have it re-mapped and you crash

I'm hoping nobody cares enough to go to the trouble of having a consequence if people don't update!
So on that note I'll just refuse the update until the ticky box materializes

Car is 7yr old so I'll probably change in next few years.

ABC101 · 07-02-2017 03:32PM

Golfgorfield wrote: »

ABC101 wrote: »

Even if you got the car dyn'od before the update VW could still refuse to accept it as they would be unlikely to accept the test results of some independent tester.

They would insist using their technician, on their machine at a time and place of their choosing etc

In addition VW could also argue that a 7 year old car is not going to produce the same performance as a new car.

Another cop out would be is that the performance drop is due to some other technical issue I.e dirty DPF or blocked manifold or faulty egr valve turbo problem or what not etc. If you want your GTD back you are going to have to spend lots more money on our spares etc.

VW only fessed up when confronted by proven, verifiable, repeatable test data and only then after a prolonged period of browbeating by the relevant legal authorities who started grinding and grinding and grinding until VW broke.

You have my sympathy, but if I were you I'd just move on the car quickly, or else go in with some class action law suit etc

I just don't think it's worth the hassle for a 7 year old car, but that's just my opinion.

Coincidentally, would you buy a VW again or change to a BMW etc? If they offered you a good trade in would you accept it for a newer one?

I only got the car in November, after months of looking for a good one!

7yr old car it may be, but at 60,000 miles with a Full VWSH its a damn goof 7 year old car that i paid top dollar for. I am entitled to have the car back as i left it with the garage as per their written confirmation!

Yeah....o.k. I see your point!.....

Toyotafanboi · 07-02-2017 03:38PM

ABC101 wrote: »

From the EVO website article I looked up, they state 0-60 in 7.5 seconds, 181 bhp and 45 mpg.
Are you getting anywhere near those figures?
Or has power gone down but your fuel efficiency increased?
Unless you get proper real world verifiable / proven figures it is very hard to tell exactly, even if you know from driving the car it's characteristics have changed dramatically.
Going back to VW and stating that the car is not the same because it just feels different is not going to cut the mustard.
You would have to get repeatable / verifiable / proven figures for the engine's performance and have them plotted / compared to what the design parameters are supposed to be.
Then you could go back to VW and state I am being cheated twice, the first time I bought the car, the second time now that the car is updated.
If you are correct, sounds like you have gone from a GTD to a D.

That's probably the most logical post on thread.

millington · 07-02-2017 03:40PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's even more ridiculous when you see what the Americans are getting in compensation for the SAME issue.

But then, VW is German and no doubt contributes significantly to their tax take, Germany runs the EU, so.........

As an aside though, is it ALL VW group cars sold during a given period that are affected, regardless of engine size? My A6 being an import means I'll never get a letter (thankfully it seems!) but as it's a 2010 I'm guessing it might be affected as well?

I brought in a 2014 A6 from the UK last year and got a letter about the software upgrade a few months back

joeysoap · 07-02-2017 03:54PM

Ia friend of mine got the letter few weeks ago. Was going to have it done along with service now in Feby. 1.6 Jetta automatic (second hand, previous owner needed automatic) lovely car, basically a bigger golf with a bigger boot IMO, reading this would he be better off refusing the fix? I know there's probably no set answer, but it's due an NCT later in the year and by then the fix might be mandatory. Little loss of power wouldn't affect him, nearly all motorway driving.

VW emissions software update - disaster

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