VW emissions software update - disaster

joujoujou

OSI wrote: »

They already ask you to confirm the vehicle isn't modified from it's factory specification.

Refusing aforementioned emissions update would still leave factory specification in.

Special Circumstances

joeysoap wrote: »

Ia friend of mine got the letter few weeks ago. Was going to have it done along with service now in Feby. 1.6 Jetta automatic (second hand, previous owner needed automatic) lovely car, basically a bigger golf with a bigger boot IMO, reading this would he be better off refusing the fix? I know there's probably no set answer, but it's due an NCT later in the year and by then the fix might be mandatory. Little loss of power wouldn't affect him, nearly all motorway driving.

This cannot be said too often or too loudly, or perhaps even too slowly.

The NCT cannot tell from it's farcical diesel "emissions" test if you have had this fix or not.

They cannot tell if you were producing more NOx than 100 "dieselgate" VWs.

The NCT emissions test is like something for a Victorian steam train. It has no place whatsoever in a modern car testing environment. At least not as the SOLE test of a cars emissions.

The emissions this fix relates to are not tested by the NCT. The emissions in question are not even regarded as "real" emissions by the Green party.

You could have your DPF professionally removed and your EGR blanked and your car remapped to it's absolute limit and pass the NCT diesel "emissions" test.


If anything this fix could push toward rather than away from the fail limit for laughable NCT emissions test as running richer to produce less NOx might produce more black smuts. You'd still be miles away from failing though.

ABC101

Yeah... I see what you mean by paying top dollar... looking on CarsIreland there is a 2010 GTD for 15.5K.
Damn right you are pi**ed off.

Golfgorfield

ABC101 wrote: »

Yeah... I see what you mean by paying top dollar... looking on CarsIreland there is a 2010 GTD for 15.5K.
Damn right you are pi**ed off.

Yep they're not cheap!
Mine is DSG with heated leather, adj suspension, satnav, climate, sensors and a Full main dealer history!

I paid less than that but its still huge money, albeit they're a fantastic car to drive, sorry were!!

Golfgorfield

So the main dealer has phoned me to say they have checked the car and all is 100% no faults and its fine.

He told me its not down on power at all, i asked was it tested on a rolling road, his reply "no, one of the lads drove it he said its not down on power" i politely asked does this lad know power outputs just from driving a car, his reply was no but hes driven loads of GTD's.

Hes never driven mine though, before and after the update so a drive wont tell anyone anything.

Ive since phoned VW Ireland and was told they will ask for a tech report and test drive the car again... ff sake.

My last words with the "customer service agent, who didnt know what BHP meant" was I am not collecting my car until im satisfied its performing as it was pre update, as per your letter.

Her reply was as expected "thats not something i can comment on" (she said this about 20 times in 10mins.


Anyone wanna buy a 110BHP golf GTD????

gctest50

fairly dismal - down 50%

Golfgorfield

gctest50 wrote: »

fairly dismal

What is this???

ABC101

Golfgorfield wrote: »

ABC101 wrote: »

Yeah... I see what you mean by paying top dollar... looking on CarsIreland there is a 2010 GTD for 15.5K.
Damn right you are pi**ed off.

Yep they're not cheap!
Mine is DSG with heated leather, adj suspension, satnav, climate, sensors and a Full main dealer history!

I paid less than that but its still huge money, albeit they're a fantastic car to drive, sorry were!!

Well, the only thing I can advise is that you attempt to measure the car against what it is supposed to do, i.e. a rough 0 to 60 test etc, fuel economy and so on.   It could well be a slower car, but perhaps not too much slower?
However if you are fully certain that it is not the same car and you value a bit of performance then you are either looking at trading it in for another updated VW which is updated and sporty or else taking a hit and going for a different make.
Nearly all manufacturers have their lemons and trying to get a car which is reliable is a bit like Russian Roulette.
TBH, I am a bit surprised you went for a VW given the scandal over emissions, but perhaps that's just me being a crusty old cynic.

gctest50

Golfgorfield wrote: »

What is this???

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AII8a0cFXX1v3Qs&cid=B6B727C7F19316F7&id=B6B727C7F19316F7%212722&parId=B6B727C7F19316F7%21104&o=OneUp


from

Buffmans post here :

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=102546685

jones

My 2 litre Diesel 110bhp Golf has to get the emissions fix i've a letter from local VW dealer to call in "whenever suits". The car is 2009 highline model and in great condition and have never had any issues with it. I didnt even think about the software fix negatively affecting the performance of the car. I thought all along this cheat only kicked in when the engine detected the testing machine being hooked up to it and regulated the engine accordingly? Am i wrong? I was going to get the fix done at the next service. Given the age of the car i'll be changing it in the next year regardless

Special Circumstances

As the original version of that graphic shows, the dyno'd car was well down right where it counts for day to day driving.
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AII8a0cFXX1v3Qs&cid=B6B727C7F19316F7&id=B6B727C7F19316F7%212722&parId=B6B727C7F19316F7%21104&o=OneUp

0-60 and mpg are all well and good but if the OP's car has been castrated to the same extent in the same rpm range... it's never gonna feel the same. There's no better way appreciating the power of a good car than to take a spin in a less powerful one.... but it looks like VW have given the OP that experience without the prospect of sitting back into his old "powerful" car.

Remap it to f**k and get the EGR and DPF deleted while you're at it.

Toyotafanboi

Golfgorfield wrote: »

So the main dealer has phoned me to say they have checked the car and all is 100% no faults and its fine.

He told me its not down on power at all, i asked was it tested on a rolling road, his reply "no, one of the lads drove it he said its not down on power" i politely asked does this lad know power outputs just from driving a car, his reply was no but hes driven loads of GTD's.

Hes never driven mine though, before and after the update so a drive wont tell anyone anything.

Ive since phoned VW Ireland and was told they will ask for a tech report and test drive the car again... ff sake.

My last words with the "customer service agent, who didnt know what BHP meant" was I am not collecting my car until im satisfied its performing as it was pre update, as per your letter.

Her reply was as expected "thats not something i can comment on" (she said this about 20 times in 10mins.


Anyone wanna buy a 110BHP golf GTD????

You've contradicted yourself a lot there.

You ask was the car tested on a rolling road to check if it was down on power, but what use would a retrospective rolling road test be with no pre update results. You'l just make yourself look irrational requesting unreasonable things like this which will only get the backs up of the people you are dealing with.

You asked did the technician know power outputs purely from driving a car as if this is not possible, but you are claiming yourself that you can tell from "feeling" alone that it is?

You say a drive won't tell anyone anything anyway, but a drive has told you everything you think you know.

You need to at least not contradict yourself so badly if you are going to fight this.

You need to focus your efforts. Go to 2x independent rolling road operators and get 2 sets of figures for your car. See if both figures are consistent with one another and considerably removed from manufacturers quoted specs (adjusting for 3x years of wear and tear).

It might cost you a few quid, but if you're serious about pursuing this, 2 independent assessments of your cars power, printed in black and white will give you a good basis to create attention where you want it.

Whether it be right or wrong, going back to your dealer and saying my butt dyno says the car is a bit slower not will simply not get you anywhere. It could be the placebo effect from yours or their point of view. You must surely understand that fact even if you chose not to accept it?

robtri

Golfgorfield wrote: »

So the main dealer has phoned me to say they have checked the car and all is 100% no faults and its fine.

He told me its not down on power at all, i asked was it tested on a rolling road, his reply "no, one of the lads drove it he said its not down on power" i politely asked does this lad know power outputs just from driving a car, his reply was no but hes driven loads of GTD's.

Hes never driven mine though, before and after the update so a drive wont tell anyone anything.

Ive since phoned VW Ireland and was told they will ask for a tech report and test drive the car again... ff sake.

My last words with the "customer service agent, who didnt know what BHP meant" was I am not collecting my car until im satisfied its performing as it was pre update, as per your letter.

Her reply was as expected "thats not something i can comment on" (she said this about 20 times in 10mins.


Anyone wanna buy a 110BHP golf GTD????

what pre update information about your car do you have?
I assume you have a pre update rolling road test and results to compare to if you are asking for an after test rolling road test.

what is your basis for saying its down on power?

bear1

If you were in the US you would either be offered a buy back, compensation or huge discounts on changing the car.
In Ireland... "ah well, tis grand sure seamus drove it there to Aldi and back and it was flying".

Special Circumstances

bear1 wrote: »

If you were in the US you would either be offered a buy back, compensation or huge discounts on changing the car.
In Ireland... "ah well, tis grand sure seamus drove it there to Aldi and back and it was flying".

"VARE IST YOUR PROOF!!"

benny79

So what is everyones general consensus get the update done or leave well alone?

After hearing of Op's issues I think I'll Leave mine or can you ask them for a print out before and after? but they will hardly do that if they know there's issues with an update.

I have a long commute to work and I dont want to get an update that will cost me money as the fuel efficiency wont be as good!

bazz26

After 6 pages of this thread do you really still have to ask that question?

kay 9

Ze Germans have everyone fooled with everything from their cars to the eu. :pac:

KCross

bear1 wrote: »

If you were in the US you would either be offered a buy back, compensation or huge discounts on changing the car.
In Ireland... "ah well, tis grand sure seamus drove it there to Aldi and back and it was flying".

My understanding is that they broke a law in the US hence the massive compensation over there.

Since we (in the EU) dont track/test the same emissions as the US no law was actually broken here, hence no compensation. The fix here is just to be seen to be good and taking responsibility but legally they didnt have to do it.... at least thats how I understood it.

Wheeliebin30

KCross wrote: »

My understanding is that they broke a law in the US hence the massive compensation over there.

Since we (in the EU) dont track/test the same emissions as the US no law was actually broken here, hence no compensation. The fix here is just to be seen to be good and taking responsibility but legally they didnt have to do it.... at least thats how I understood it.

So why bother with the fix at all????

bear1

bazz26 wrote: »

After 6 pages of this thread do you really still have to ask that question?

Literally laughed my hole off :pac:

zilog_jones

KCross wrote: »

My understanding is that they broke a law in the US hence the massive compensation over there.

Since we (in the EU) dont track/test the same emissions as the US no law was actually broken here, hence no compensation. The fix here is just to be seen to be good and taking responsibility but legally they didnt have to do it.... at least thats how I understood it.

EU type approval has similar emissions tests for NOx and particulates as the US, but not as stringent. I believe the German Federal Motor Transport Authority declared that VW were cheating on the NEDC emissions tests and declared a recall, which started the EU-wide recall. VW are liable for some sort of penalty for using a "defeat device" to pass NEDC tests, but I don't think anything's happened there (motor industry have too much influence on the EU, conflict of interests, etc.).

The big difference between here and the US are the legal systems - punitive damages and class action suits exist over there, whereas they do not here. VW saw taking back cars or financially compensating owners as the cheaper solution in the US.

VW also believed that software updates could achieve Euro 5 emissions legitimately, whereas US EPA emissions tests would require more significant/expensive modification to the cars - another reason that made just taking the cars off the road altogether a more viable option.

KCross

zilog_jones wrote: »

EU type approval has similar emissions tests for NOx and particulates as the US, but not as stringent. I believe the German Federal Motor Transport Authority declared that VW were cheating on the NEDC emissions tests and declared a recall, which started the EU-wide recall. VW are liable for some sort of penalty for using a "defeat device" to pass NEDC tests, but I don't think anything's happened there (motor industry have too much influence on the EU, conflict of interests, etc.).

The big difference between here and the US are the legal systems - punitive damages and class action suits exist over there, whereas they do not here. VW saw taking back cars or financially compensating owners as the cheaper solution in the US.

VW also believed that software updates could achieve Euro 5 emissions legitimately, whereas US EPA emissions tests would require more significant/expensive modification to the cars - another reason that made just taking the cars off the road altogether a more viable option.

I was close enough!

I did read that the fact they have initiated a recall in the EU and that that recall addresses the issue it means they are less likely to be sued as its just a recall like any other recall which happens all the time.

They should have to pay a penalty to the EU for cheating though, but its very unlikely that owners will get anything in the EU since the issue is "fixed" once you get the software update.

The only way an owner will get anything in the EU is if they can prove significant loss of value as a direct result of the cheat. I'd say that will be almost impossible to prove.

Buffman

benny79 wrote: »

So what is everyones general consensus get the update done or leave well alone?

Have a read of the comments below this article and see what you think then.

Well over 100 recent comments there with various detrimental consequences across most VAG models. I know some VAG fanboys here will demand empirical evidence of any issue, but the fact remains that VAG are proven liars regarding these emission issues. So what makes anyone think they'll be honest about any 'fix' related issues now?

ml100 wrote: »

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/volkswagen-emissions-scandal/8-reports-of-volkswagen-tiguans-losing-power-after-ea189-emissions-fix/

I think this chap summed it up nicely.

Mike7777 2 days ago
If you haven't yet taken your car in for the emissions fix, do not do it. There's nothing wrong with it now and you don't have to have it done. If you do there is a very strong likelihood that you will have problems or reduced performance and you will not be believed that there is a link, and you'll be on your own. Mega stress and expense will quickly follow.

Moanin

My 2011 A6 TDI was done and there's no difference whatsoever....

Vicxas

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Current situation is the car is now back in the main dealer, they have provided a high spec replacement car and have told me they are going to fully investigate and test drive the car.

the test drive will as i pointed out be pointless as they have nothing to compare it to....

I've a feeling im going to be disappointed, but im determined to put up a hell of a fight for some kind of resolution.

The problem is, what proof do you have the car is down on power and pull?

Golfgorfield

Vicxas wrote: »

The problem is, what proof do you have the car is down on power and pull?

Of course that is my problem. Have you read the full thread?

zilog_jones

Auto Motor und Sport did a before and after test with a 2.0 TDI Amarok (Google Translate makes it mostly readable):

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/news/vw-diesel-update-amarok-leistung-gleich-gut-verbrauch-leicht-erhoeht-10551733.html

They noticed no significant difference with performance, except fuel consumption increased by about 0.5 l/100km. Also NOx was not any lower in real world driving.

Of course the software update was only required to make the cars pass the NEDC test (on a rolling road, in a lab) without any discernible cheating - it by no means had to make the car perform any better under any other conditions. If these results are consistent among all the recalled VWs, even from a purely environmental perspective it won't really fix anything and is bound to make something worse for you - either with performance or fuel consumption.

Vicxas

Golfgorfield wrote: »

Of course that is my problem. Have you read the full thread?

Gave myself a Tl;DR alright. :P

Noccy_Mondy

I got my 09 GT 140 done back in November. Was in for an unrelated issue, they kind of got me on the hop, so I got it done, without reading into it. Thankfully, I notice no difference to the way it drives. That said, knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn't get it done... if it ain't broke.....