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Spring is here.

1356

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  • #62
    Dr Crayfish
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭Dr Crayfish


    Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »
    The profusion of buds on trees and shrubs indicates it is Spring, to my mind. There has been such a big change in the past week or so of things creeping back above ground, the bird song has revved up a notch, the weeding has commenced, Imbolc has dawned; it's Spring.

    It's eerie as we haven't really had a winter :eek:


  • #63
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Captain Chaos wrote: »
    Winter = December, January, February. End off.
    murpho999 wrote: »
    So following that logic, August, which is peak summer holiday season is Autumn. Makes no sense.
    Captain Chaos wrote: »
    So is August the start of Autumn then.... it's the old school ways that are wrong.

    Summer = June July August
    Autumn = September October November


    Are muise táimid ar ais arís 's tú atá ann/Here we go again and it's yourself that's in it once again, murpho99. To reiterate: it makes perfect sense if you're Irish and haven't your head conquered by another people's traditions. Here's the baby version:

    1. La 'le Bríde = 1 February/start of spring
    2. Lá Bealtaine = 1 May/ start of summer
    3. Lá Lúnasa = 1 August/start of summer==> fómhar = autumn (historically from the Old Irish period AD 600-900 'fogamar' meaning 'under-winter'); Meán Fómhair=middle of autumn/September; Deireadh Fómhair = end of autumn/October
    4. Lá Samhna = 1 November/start of winter.

    You can go on until the cows come home giving out to the Irish for not "conforming" to another people's tradition, but it makes no difference: for the vast majority of Irish people in 2017, the above is still the traditional division of seasons in this country. Attempting to impose a (very selective) 21st century scientific interpretation upon Irish custom and tradition going back well over 1000 years is just a bit thick. And, yes, I'm being euphemistic about the 'a bit' part.


    Gaelic Calendar


  • #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    In English, coincidentally, before the word autumn began to be used (as recently as the 16th century), the period was called harvest. When does harvest start? The month of Lúnasa/August, when autumn in Ireland starts.

    Etymology of 'autumn'


  • #65
    RiderOnTheStorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭RiderOnTheStorm


    The shortest day of the year is in December. This is the middle of winter. Therefore winter is Nov, Dec, Jan. This is mirrored by the longest day in June, is middle of summer (ie May, Jun, Jul). So slot autumn & spring around those 2 seasons, and Feb is the start of spring. Regardless of temp or weather.


  • #66
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Deleted User wrote: »

    You can go on until the cows come home giving out to the Irish for not "conforming" to another people's tradition, but it makes no difference: for the vast majority of Irish people in 2017, the above is still the traditional division of seasons in this country. Attempting to impose a (very selective) 21st century scientific interpretation upon Irish custom and tradition going back well over 1000 years is just a bit thick. And, yes, I'm being euphemistic about the 'a bit' part.


    Gaelic Calendar
    The old " look, they are all out of step except our Jonny "

    Edit. And Fómhair was Harvest not Autumn.


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  • #67
    Autonomous Cowherd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭Autonomous Cowherd


    Kailyn Quaint Pillowcase wrote: »
    The old " look, they are all out of step except our Jonny "

    Ì read that in a Kerry accent.


  • #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Kailyn Quaint Pillowcase wrote: »
    The old " look, they are all out of step except our Jonny "

    That's exactly what trying to impose an outsider's definition of autumn etc on a society that has it defined for well over a thousand years is. And surely it's Johnny?


  • #69
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    I was under the impression that meteorological winter in this part of the world is 21st December to 21st March?


  • #70
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Kailyn Quaint Pillowcase wrote: »
    And Fómhair was Harvest not Autumn.


    A simple search on Teanglann would have saved you saying something silly like this: fómhar [I even helped you by giving you the etymology of fómhar (not fómhair) in the other post.]


  • #71
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Deleted User wrote: »
    That's exactly what trying to impose an outsider's definition of autumn etc on a society that has it defined for well over a thousand years is. And surely it's Johnny?

    But we didn't define Autumn in the old calendar. We defined Harvest Time. A huge difference.


    Jonny, Johnny. No odds.


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  • #72
    GhostyMcGhost
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭GhostyMcGhost


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    Just because there are 12 months and 4 seasons does not mean they must be split evenly.

    Spring - March, April, May

    Summer - June, July, August, September

    Autumn - October, November

    Winter - December, January, February

    Summer -> September?
    Are you for real?


  • #73
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    Don't know what planet you're living on where August is in any season other than Summer but it's certainly not Earth!

    New Zealand perhaps


  • #74
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    Nonsense. It's 6 degrees celcius with a wind chill right now on the east coast. Spring my backside.

    Have no idea what this means.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    A simple search on Teanglann would have saved you saying something silly like this: fómhar [I even helped you by giving you the etymology of fómhar (not fómhair) in the other post.]

    You are deliberately skipping around the fact that the Irish used Mid Harvest and End Harvest. The concept of Autumn is only 13th or 16th century, I can't recall which. The Irish for the months can only have referred to Harvest at that time.


  • #75
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,499 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    We can actually have some very decent weather in September (an Indian Summer). It's better than July and August sometimes.

    Technically of course the first 20 days or so are 'summer'.


  • #76
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    I was under the impression that meteorological winter in this part of the world is 21st December to 21st March?

    That's Astronomical Winter. Meteorological Winter starts 1st December in this part of the world.


  • #77
    Steve F
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,856 ✭✭✭Steve F


    Springsprung_ wrote: »
    Welcome Spring, goodbye Winter.

    If this is Spring...get me outta here
    :mad:


  • #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Kailyn Quaint Pillowcase wrote: »
    But we didn't define Autumn in the old calendar. We defined Harvest Time. A huge difference.

    The dictionary above would disagree with you, but there you have it. I think you can email them and propose changes if you have evidence to the contrary.


  • #79
    red ears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭red ears


    Its hard to argue November isn't winter in this country and its hard to say August isn't summer.

    Our seasons feel like they fall in the middle of months.

    Winter - Mid Nov to Mid Feb.
    Spring - Mid Feb to Mid May.
    Summer - Mid May to Mid Aug.
    Autumn - Mid Aug to Mid Nov.


  • #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Kailyn Quaint Pillowcase wrote: »
    You are deliberately skipping around the fact that the Irish used Mid Harvest and End Harvest. The concept of Autumn is only 13th or 16th century, I can't recall which. The Irish for the months can only have referred to Harvest at that time.

    By this thinking, exactly the same applies to the English concept of autumn (and as I pointed out above, until the 16th century autumn was called harvest time in English). So I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make other than the season of harvest time (Lúnasa, Meán Fómhair, Deireadh Fómhair) was renamed as the season of autumn time in both languages.


  • #81
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,775 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    RiderOnTheStorm wrote: »
    The shortest day of the year is in December. This is the middle of winter. Therefore winter is Nov, Dec, Jan. This is mirrored by the longest day in June, is middle of summer (ie May, Jun, Jul). So slot autumn & spring around those 2 seasons, and Feb is the start of spring. Regardless of temp or weather.

    The 9th of February is closer to the 21st of December than the 1st of November.


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  • #82
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    Deleted User wrote: »
    for the vast majority of Irish people in 2017, the above is still the traditional division of seasons in this country. Attempting to impose a (very selective) 21st century scientific interpretation upon Irish custom and tradition going back well over 1000 years is just a bit thick. And, yes, I'm being euphemistic about the 'a bit' part.
    Because 'custom' and 'tradition' are always a better rationale than science and common sense...
    Deleted User wrote: »
    That's exactly what trying to impose an outsider's definition of autumn etc on a society that has it defined for well over a thousand years is. And surely it's Johnny?
    I give up.


  • #83
    topper75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Where are you getting this from? What foreign press are Irish people reading in Europe apart from UK stuff, as language is an issue.

    What has EU got to do with seasons?

    You claim we are Irish but then ignore what the official Irish body on this matter say, and they say that Spring starts in March.

    By press I mean internet - people read articles from Al Jazeera, Huffington Post, RT etc. etc.

    The EU wants to standardize things across their member states in so far as they can. The majority of EU territories have a continental climate. We are an outlier from that median but they will care as much as they cared when setting interest rates for a flagging Germany and a booming Ireland back in say 2005 :-). If we have always had our own ways of doing things - better stick by that. Of course belittling Irish calendar conventions isn't a secret conspiratorial objective of the EU commission, but it is worth watching where 'change' comes from especially with regard to attempts to fix that which is not broken.

    This 'official' Irish body Met Eireann are paid by govt who are in turn in debt to outside interests. I don't see them becoming guardians of our traditions anytime soon.


  • #84
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter#Astronomical_and_other_calendar-based_reckoning

    In summary -
    Astronomical winter starts at the winter solstice and ends at the vernal equinox - so the 21 of December or so to wound the 20th of March.
    Meteorological winter is December, January and February - usually the coldest months of the year.
    The Irish/Gaelic calendar (and in Scandinavia apparently) defines winter as the three month period with the shortest days/weakest soar radiation - so November, December and January.

    The thing I look forward too the most in the Spring is the longer days so today is the first day of Spring. It's also what I was taught in national school and it stuck. Arguing about this is as pointless as arguing about putting the clocks forward and back, pubs closing on Good Friday and when to put your Christmas tree up.


  • #85
    topper75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    Arcade_Tryer wrote: »
    Nonsense. It's 6 degrees celcius with a wind chill right now on the east coast. Spring my backside.

    Have no idea what this means.

    It means the four quarters of the year as they apply to this island.

    Spring starts cold brother - no matter what side of the country you are in. It is the transition out of winter remember. Or were you picturing swallows flying in a blue sky as you sip your cider? That might be the Florida spring you are thinking of. Today is the first day of Spring in Ireland.


  • #86
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    topper75 wrote: »

    This 'official' Irish body Met Eireann are paid by govt who are in turn in debt to outside interests. I don't see them becoming guardians of our traditions anytime soon.
    Good.


  • #87
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    topper75 wrote: »
    By press I mean internet - people read articles from Al Jazeera, Huffington Post, RT etc. etc.

    The EU wants to standardize things across their member states in so far as they can. The majority of EU territories have a continental climate. We are an outlier from that median but they will care as much as they cared when setting interest rates for a flagging Germany and a booming Ireland back in say 2005 :-). If we have always had our own ways of doing things - better stick by that. Of course belittling Irish calendar conventions isn't a secret conspiratorial objective of the EU commission, but it is worth watching where 'change' comes from especially with regard to attempts to fix that which is not broken.

    This 'official' Irish body Met Eireann are paid by govt who are in turn in debt to outside interests. I don't see them becoming guardians of our traditions anytime soon.

    Re: Met Eireann. It's probably just because they're a weather forecasting agency and they base the seasons on the weather, rather than the length of day (which is what the Irish calendar does). And why the quotes around official?? And I wouldn't expect a scientific institute to be the guardians of any traditions. It would be contrary to their purpose surely? Drawing a conclusion that Met Eireann definie the seasons by the meteorological standards because of a Government controlled by the machinations of some external power is a bit far fetched. Was there a sudden switch in their definition of Spring at some stage in the past? What does the EU have to gain by redefining the seasons in this country? Will it change the weather? Is there a brown envelope in it for Enda Kenny if we all start calling February winter?
    I really worry about people who see conspiracy and oppression in everything, even the most mundane of things.

    btw: Today is the first day of Spring, because this is Ireland and I use the Irish calendar. Met Eireann can say what they like. I know why they define it as such, and that's ok because it's a rational explanation. As is my understanding.


  • #88
    Arcade_Tryer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭Arcade_Tryer


    topper75 wrote: »
    Today is the first day of Spring in Ireland.
    Repeating something does not make it true. Nor does tradition.


  • #89
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,775 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    I never realised Spring was so controversial.


  • #90
    hot buttered scones
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,839 ✭✭✭hot buttered scones


    red ears wrote: »
    Its hard to argue November isn't winter in this country and its hard to say August isn't summer.

    Our seasons feel like they fall in the middle of months.

    Winter - Mid Nov to Mid Feb.
    Spring - Mid Feb to Mid May.
    Summer - Mid May to Mid Aug.
    Autumn - Mid Aug to Mid Nov.

    Yeah, that sounds about right. It's just a bit tidier to have the seasons start and finish at the start and end of the months. I propose we add 2 weeks to December this year. That way Spring will fall exactly on the First on February and everyone will be happy. We also get 2 Christmases.


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  • #91
    Conor Bourke
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 17,426 ✭✭✭✭Conor Bourke


    Despite being an agnostic I spent the day pulling rushes and weaving them into crosses. Couldn't give a fig about the religious significance, I just enjoyed the therapeutic activity and my friend and I had a laugh reminiscing about making them in primary school.


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