Are the left being brainwashed by Islam?? - Mod warning in OP

Widdershins · 01-02-2017 12:16PM

Nody wrote: »

And in the 50s the right were shouting themselves hoarse shouting communist at everyone who disagreed with them; before that it was that African slaves and descendants did not have the capacity to vote as they were sub humans. Now it's about how if LGBT people were allowed to marry it would destroy marriages but here's the fact you'll realize one day; no matter how much you keep resisting that the world and society evolve and changes it will continue to evolve and nothing you do will stop that.

Nothing they do will stop change and evolution? Surely everyone's actions contribute to the eventual direction of change and evolution, or is it that people who hold only certain views have any impact on society?

Nody · 01-02-2017 12:17PM

constance tench wrote: »

Why then did you mention Pakistani work colleagues rather than the society you were immersed in?

Because the people I was working with where Pakistan work colleagues who had flown in for the project we were working on and Pakistanis were specifically called out earlier as well. On top of that Pakistan is one of the more devout countries out there (Saudi Arabia is not in practice but they pay their lip service and donations) in terms of actually following the scriptures.

Widdershins wrote: »

Nothing they do will stop change and evolution? Surely everyone's actions contribute to the eventual direction of change and evolution, or is it that people who hold only certain views have any impact on society?

20 years ago the idea of LGBT marriage would never even be considered; today it's fully normal. 100 years ago the idea of African Americans voting was seen as an affront to the white race, today you'd not bat an eye lid at the idea. The people who try to preserve the old ways of thinking and the old structures never succeed in the long term; that's simply a fact of history itself. So yes they would contribute to the direction by resisting it and causing a ground swelling to make a change in the younger generation but I can't recall any attempts to harken back to the old good days that actually survived as a practical implemented thought outside niche communities ala religious sects etc. So while all people do contribute at some level history shows us that society evolves and change rather than remain stagnant in the old ways of yesteryear. Does that help explain it better?

Donal55 · 01-02-2017 12:18PM

World Hijab Day folks.

Widdershins · 01-02-2017 12:18PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Yeah dont see why not

Sometimes, Moderator minds work in mysterious ways :P

alastair · 01-02-2017 12:19PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Really so I should just go by what you & the media tell me & not by my own experience of what I've seen & heard?? Baaa Baaa Baaa:rolleyes:

I'd suggest you have enough cop-on to recognise that your supposed personal anecdotes don't tally with the reality of the world. You can insist that the moon is made of cheese too, since it might appear that way to you, but you'll have to live with better informed people suggesting you wise up.

Help!!!! · 01-02-2017 12:20PM

alastair wrote: »

I'd suggest you have enough cop-on to recognise that your supposed personal anecdotes don't tally with the reality of the world. You can insist that the moon is made of cheese too, since it might appear that way to you, but you'll have to live with better informed people suggesting you wise up.

So I take it you've lived outside of Ireland & close to a Muslim area?

alastair · 01-02-2017 12:23PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

So I take it you've lived outside of Ireland & close to a Muslim area?

I don't know why you feel the need to take that from my posts, since I've not been to the moon, but can vouch for it's not being made of cheese regardless.

Help!!!! · 01-02-2017 12:29PM

alastair wrote: »

I don't know why you feel the need to take that from my posts, since I've not been to the moon, but can vouch for it's not being made of cheese regardless.

So who are you to dismiss my experiences when I have spoken at length to many Muslims & have lived close to large Muslim populations?

Walter H Price · 01-02-2017 12:29PM

Nody wrote: »

Since it was out of Saudi Arabia I'd say they where quite comfortable in majority locally and from tradition.

Sorry you were living in one of the most if not the most oppressive Islamic countries on Earth where , women are literally treated as second class citizens are forbidden to drive or be in public unaccompanied by a man , they behead and publicly flog people, Homosexuality is a crime as is being an atheist, having an affair , being raped , drinking , kissing in public etc ...

But your example of how tolerant Islam is and how we've gotten it all wrong is the few Pakistani lads in work who were ok with working with Indian women, that seems a little blinkered in my view.

The Saudi girl i met last year in my masters course was a really nice, really intelligent girl and was completely torn between having to go back to Saudi , put back on her Burka and living by strict sharia law and having to give up all her relationships with her family (who were incredibly wealthy) and friends and effectively become a penniless refugee here ... it only took her about 6 weeks to decide the latter was a better option , so i'm going to go ahead and take your point but with a far more than a pinch of salt.

constance tench · 01-02-2017 12:31PM

Nody wrote: »

Because the people I was working with where Pakistan work colleagues who had flown in for the project we were working on and Pakistanis were specifically called out earlier as well. On top of that Pakistan is one of the more devout countries out there (Saudi Arabia is not in practice but they pay their lip service and donations) in terms of actually following the scriptures.

Can you understand how I find the video evidence in that mosque more compelling than the anecdotes of an anonymous internet forum contributor?

Wanderer78 · 01-02-2017 12:32PM

Walter H Price wrote:

The Saudi girl i met last year in my masters course was a really nice, really intelligent girl and was completely torn between having to go back to Saudi , put back on her Burka and living by strict sharia law and having to give up all her relationships with her family (who were incredibly wealthy) and friends and effectively become a penniless refugee here ... it only took her about 6 weeks to decide the latter was a better option , so i'm going to go ahead and take your point but with a far more than a pinch of salt.

Fair play to her, that was a tough call. Mate worked in Saudi for a while, hated it for the reasons you outlined

alastair · 01-02-2017 12:33PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

So who are you to dismiss my experiences when I have spoken at length to many Muslims & have lived close to large Muslim populations?

Who am I to do so? Someone who is able to determine facts, not in the basis of a set of skewed personal anecdotes, but by actual evidence. Your stint in Ealing doesn't mean you get to propagate nonsense. I've lived years in London too - so where does that leave you?

Nody · 01-02-2017 12:37PM

Walter H Price wrote: »

Sorry you were living in one of the most if not the most oppressive Islamic countries on Earth where

But your example of how tolerant Islam is and how we've gotten it all wrong is the few Pakistani lads in work who were ok with working with Indian women, that seems a little blinkered in my view.

so i'm going to go ahead and take your point but with a far more than a pinch of salt.

And if I where to go and get the more extreme Christian examples such as Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints who raped underage girls in the name of the bible and said look at their lot, all Christians are a-holes because they allow rape of underage girls on an ongoing basis would that be a fair assessment?

The point is that if you're going to take in your words the "Most oppressive Islamic country" as the base comparison then you better be willing to do the same for Christianity and the west as well. If on the other hand you want to know how the billions of average Muslims live you would be better off with another example.

Chips Lovell · 01-02-2017 12:39PM

Walter H Price wrote: »

The Saudi girl i met last year in my masters course was a really nice, really intelligent girl and was completely torn between having to go back to Saudi , put back on her Burka and living by strict sharia law and having to give up all her relationships with her family (who were incredibly wealthy) and friends and effectively become a penniless refugee here ... it only took her about 6 weeks to decide the latter was a better option , so i'm going to go ahead and take your point but with a far more than a pinch of salt.

But according to some people, there's no such thing as a moderate muslim, so she shouldn't be allowed stay here.

alastair · 01-02-2017 12:39PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Awww did you go back through my posts to find out where i lived in London??
Not a stalker are you? I feel that you are invading my personal space :rolleyes:
Well you keep reading those facts & learning about life from the news & the internet

You keep deluding yourself that the moon is made of cheese, because it looks that way to you. I'm not subscribing to the post/alternative fact delusion.

Nody · 01-02-2017 12:40PM

constance tench wrote: »

Can you understand how I find the video evidence in that mosque more compelling than the anecdotes of an anonymous internet forum contributor?

Then go listen to Westboro Baptist Church preachers and tell me what you think as that's representing all Christianity by the same definition.

Walter H Price · 01-02-2017 12:42PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Fair play to her, that was a tough call. Mate worked in Saudi for a while, hated it for the reasons you outlined

she was incredibly brave to do what she did in view but at the same time how awful must a place be by the time you are prepared to give up your entire life and every relationship you've ever had to seek asylum thousands of miles away ?

we had 3 Saudis in the class two girls and her the two lads (one was her cousin) left after a massive row in the class 5 weeks in , the row started over her cousin complaining to the lecturer in front of the entire class that he was allowing her sit in class with out her hair covered, it escalated to him calling her a whore , not very pleasant to whiteness.

The two lads left after that, though to be honest i think they were sent back rather than choose to leave, the row in the class that night turned very ugly and she decided she couldn't go back very shortly after.

Help!!!! · 01-02-2017 12:43PM

alastair wrote: »

You keep deluding yourself that the moon is made of cheese, because it looks that way to you.

Your the one harping on about cheese not me.

alastair · 01-02-2017 12:45PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Your the one harping on about cheese not me.

If you don't get the point, just ask.

Walter H Price · 01-02-2017 12:45PM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

But according to some people, there's no such thing as a moderate muslim, so she shouldn't be allowed stay here.

she was about as Muslim as i am am Catholic as in she was born in a Muslim countries in to a Muslim family , but in reality she was an atheist didn't have much interest in the fairy stories or rules.

I have literally 0% issue with immigration from the middle east for people like her who have no interest whatsoever in Islam other then they are trying to escape it.

Help!!!! · 01-02-2017 12:47PM

alastair wrote: »

If you don't get the point, just ask.

You do understand that people are allowed to have different points of view than you?? So lets move on theres other people on here you can go troll

Widdershins · 01-02-2017 12:47PM

Walter H Price wrote: »

she was about as Muslim as i am am Catholic as in she was born in a Muslim countries in to a Muslim family , but in reality she was an atheist didn't have much interest in the fairy stories or rules.

I have literally 0% issue with immigration from the middle east for people like her who have no interest whatsoever in Islam other then they are trying to escape it.

Most of the Muslims I know are similar. Actually, they're nearly all secular muslims.

One is gay and once remarked that there's ''no exit door'' from Islam and that he's scared of the consequences both of being discovered for a gay man and for apostasy.

alastair · 01-02-2017 12:52PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

You do understand that people are allowed to have different points of view than you?? So lets move on theres other people on here you can go troll

You weren't expressing a point of view. You were making a factually incorrect claim. If you'd put "I think" in front of that claim, it would be just as nonsensical, but at least correct.

Walter H Price · 01-02-2017 12:53PM

Nody wrote: »

And if I where to go and get the more extreme Christian examples such as Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints who raped underage girls in the name of the bible and said look at their lot, all Christians are a-holes because they allow rape of underage girls on an ongoing basis would that be a fair assessment?

The point is that if you're going to take in your words the "Most oppressive Islamic country" as the base comparison then you better be willing to do the same for Christianity and the west as well. If on the other hand you want to know how the billions of average Muslims live you would be better off with another example.

i 100% am , i would have as little tolerence for Devout christians as i do devout muslims , if extream christians want to come in here and rape kids id rather let their boats sink too.

My point was why is it not Christianophobic or racist to heavily critisise the catholic church , it teaching , the more extreme view on sex and morality of it devout but if you similarly challenge is lam you are called out as Islamophobic ? i do not fear Islam , i question it , i challenge it , i believe it to be made up bullsh!t the same as all other religions , i see it as having major failings and only being a force oppression and control the same as all other religions but often times it feels like views likes this cannot be expressed in relation to Islam but can be in relation to all other religions , i don't know why this is.

Help!!!! · 01-02-2017 12:54PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Most of the Muslims I know are similar. Actually, they're nearly all secular muslims.

One is gay and once remarked that there's ''no exit door'' from Islam and that he's scared of the consequences both of being discovered for a gay man and for apostasy.

I've seen one guy who was born Muslim but didnt really believe it get shunned by all the other Muslims because he ate a bacon sandwich. He said he loved the taste of bacon & didnt know why he shouldnt be allowed to eat it

Seen the same Muslims shun another Muslim because he couldnt last Ramadan for the 3rd year in a row. Poor guy was a little fatty & he loved his food

Nody · 01-02-2017 12:58PM

Walter H Price wrote: »

My point was why is it not Christianophobic or racist to heavily critisise the catholic church , it teaching , the more extreme view on sex and morality of it devout but if you similarly challenge is lam you are called out as Islamophobic ? i do not fear Islam , i question it , i challenge it , i believe it to be made up bullsh!t the same as all other religions , i see it as having major failings and only being a force oppression and control the same as all other religions but often times it feels like views likes this cannot be expressed in relation to Islam but can be in relation to all other religions , i don't know why this is.

And this is the part where we align; you see myself and many other posters here have no issue with people criticizing Islam but rather that Islam alone is single out. If Trump would implement stringent rules against ALL extremists from Left to Right to Jews to Muslims to Christians to what ever I'd fully agree that it is a good idea (assuming equal treatment across the board). I've also argued against white guilt speech etc. for the same reason.

But to pick one group only (Muslims) and use the extremist faction of them as the single criterion for selection is what I and many others have an issue with.

Help!!!! · 01-02-2017 01:02PM

Nody wrote: »

And this is the part where we align; you see myself and many other posters here have no issue with people criticizing Islam but rather that Islam alone is single out. If Trump would implement stringent rules against ALL extremists from Left to Right to Jews to Muslims to Christians to what ever I'd fully agree that it is a good idea (assuming equal treatment across the board). I've also argued against white guilt speech etc. for the same reason.

But to pick one group only (Muslims) and use the extremist faction of them as the single criterion for selection is what I and many others have an issue with.

In fairness Obama was already drawing this ban up for those countries Trump has just implemented it.

alastair · 01-02-2017 01:03PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

In fairness Obama was already drawing this ban up for those countries Trump has just implemented it.

No he wasn't.

Widdershins · 01-02-2017 01:04PM

Nody wrote: »

And this is the part where we align; you see myself and many other posters here have no issue with people criticizing Islam but rather that Islam alone is single out. If Trump would implement stringent rules against ALL extremists from Left to Right to Jews to Muslims to Christians to what ever I'd fully agree that it is a good idea (assuming equal treatment across the board). I've also argued against white guilt speech etc. for the same reason.

But to pick one group only (Muslims) and use the extremist faction of them as the single criterion for selection is what I and many others have an issue with.

Any Christian extremists like the Westboro Baptists are home-grown American so they can't really influence that with a travel ban, can they?

I'm not sure how they would target Jewish extremists?

I'd broadly agree with you but I can't see that there's potential to do this in practice in this particular situation.

Walter H Price · 01-02-2017 01:06PM

Nody wrote: »

And this is the part where we align; you see myself and many other posters here have no issue with people criticizing Islam but rather that Islam alone is single out. If Trump would implement stringent rules against ALL extremists from Left to Right to Jews to Muslims to Christians to what ever I'd fully agree that it is a good idea (assuming equal treatment across the board). I've also argued against white guilt speech etc. for the same reason.

But to pick one group only (Muslims) and use the extremist faction of them as the single criterion for selection is what I and many others have an issue with.

but Trumps travel ban makes sense , ignore the hyperbole and hysteria around this for a second , those 7 countries have been identified by the US under the previous administration as being too dangerous for american citizens to travel too due to their instability , anti american sentiment and the significant threat to american tourists and business people to being targeted by Islamic jihadis.

Now why when ISIS and other groups have said they will smuggle fighters in with refugees etc.. would you not take extra caution and extra screening for people coming from 7 countries already identified as being dangerous for Americans to travel too. Thees are temporary bans , its does not include all Muslim countries or a ban specifically on Muslim people from those 7 countries , while the department of homeland security tighten checks etc..

I think had France and Germany done similar 2 years ago the migrant crisis could have been averted.

Are the left being brainwashed by Islam?? - Mod warning in OP

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