Are the left being brainwashed by Islam?? - Mod warning in OP

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 8:43am #1

As the title says are the left being brainwashed by Islam??
One of the organizer's of the women's march - Linda Sarsour - is pro sharia law but she tweets about how credit cards & loans would be interest free under sharia law & not that women would be second class citizens again.
You then have the women's march in Berlin where you have a group of women holding signs & one of them is singing " Allahu Akbar " on a megaphone the video moves to another girl in the crowd with tears in her eyes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWX1SKncyOA

Trump has never once said he is against immigrants or refugees but that doesn't stop the protesters from writing it on their signs.
It seems to be if you say anything against the left they shout, call racist & get violent, kinda like what you would see in less democratic countries

There have been several posts in this thread which are below the forum standard. It will be assumed from now on that anyone posting here will have read the charter. Posts in breach of the charter may face mod action.

Phoebas · 31-01-2017 8:51am

Help!!!! wrote: »

In 2011 Obama banned Iraqi's refugees from entering the US...

Can you provide a link to an official source for this?
I've looked at the State Department numbers for Iraqi refugees being admitted to the US for the last 10 years and the official numbers contradict that claim (which is widespread now but mostly on right wing blogs).
The numbers show c. 10,000 Iraqi refugees being admitted to the US in 2011 and at least 400 Iraqi refugees being admitted every month in the last 10 years.

Wanderer78 · 31-01-2017 8:52am

Help!!!! wrote:

As the title says are the left being brainwashed by Islam?? One of the organizer's of the women's march - Linda Sarsour - is pro sharia law but she tweets about how credit cards & loans would be interest free under sharia law & not that women would be second class citizens again. You then have the women's march in Berlin where you have a group of women holding signs & one of them is singing " Allahu Akbar " on a megaphone the video moves to another girl in the crowd with tears in her eyes.

Jebus, why don't these people look into less contentious things such as public banking!

smokingman · 31-01-2017 8:52am

I would say it's the far right that are being brainwashed by Islamic extremists to be honest. Their minds are weak anyway but the likes of ISIS probably love and feed them into thinking they're a huge force in the world when in fact they're not.

Wanderer78 · 31-01-2017 8:54am

smokingman wrote:

I would say it's the far right that are being brainwashed by Islamic extremists to be honest. Their minds are weak anyway but the likes of ISIS probably love and feed them into thinking they're a huge force in the world when in fact they're not.

Weak, I doubt that! Never underestimate the right

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 9:02am

Phoebas wrote: »

Can you provide a link to an official source for this?
I've looked at the State Department numbers for Iraqi refugees being admitted to the US for the last 10 years and the official numbers contradict that claim (which is widespread now but mostly on right wing blogs).
The numbers show c. 10,000 Iraqi refugees being admitted to the US in 2011 and at least 400 Iraqi refugees being admitted every month in the last 10 years.

Sorry I left out banned for 6 months

Walter H Price · 31-01-2017 9:06am

I don't know is brainwashed the right term but certainly its odd the relationship between the those who are socially left leaning and Islam. You would imagine they would have a similar adversarial relationship with devout Muslims as the have with devout Christians , at the end of the day both religions are very similar in their treatment of women as second class , gays , atheists etc... they have similar views on abortion which again those who are socially more liberal strongly disagree with.

sharia law goes much further even then cannon law in terms of punishments , beheadings , public floggings , rape victims being treated as criminals , stoning's and other medevil punishments for crimes such as adulatory , child marraiges etc.... Sharia Law is an absolute a front to the liberal western values thees people hold yet they are strong to defend Islam , Muslims and to an extent sharia even, its bizar.

I'm an athiest would describe myself as socialy right leaning in terms of welfare and immigration but more liberterian in my outlook in relation to abortion , gay rights , legalization of drugs etc... which i fully support. I would have a similar reaction to a devout muslim as i would to a devout jew or catholic in that i would strongly disagree with their beliefs and hold firm that their beliefs should be placed on a pedastal free from challenge or criticism. What facinates me with the socialy left is that they seem to be able to differentiate between the two and show respect for Islam but challenge and ridicule Catholicism , i have no idea why this is, i have been call Islamophobic many times for expressing my disgust at sharia law or making a joke about the Muslim faith but never Christianophobic (if such a term even exists) for expressing similar views towards the catholic church its teachings and position on certain social issues.

sbsquarepants · 31-01-2017 9:07am

Help!!!! wrote: »

As the title says are the left being brainwashed by Islam??
One of the organizer's of the women's march - Linda Sarsour - is pro sharia law but she tweets about how credit cards & loans would be interest free under sharia law & not that women would be second class citizens again.
You then have the women's march in Berlin where you have a group of women holding signs & one of them is singing " Allahu Akbar " on a megaphone the video moves to another girl in the crowd with tears in her eyes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWX1SKncyOA

I don't know about brainwashing - fact is you get clowns in all walks of life. There are ultra religious women as well as men, there are no doubt plenty of women who fully support sharia law. People are nuts sometimes!

I find it hard to understand how any woman could support it (but then again I find hard to understand anything that any woman does:D) In fact I find it hard to understand how any person could support it, but support it they do.

There is also a cohort of people, professional protestors, or activists for want of a better phrase, who are just against stuff - sometimes it doesn't even matter what, they've a burning need to be offended by something, anything, tell the world about it and demand change. As I said some people are just nuts!

You can't put too much stock in a slogan you seen on a placard.

Nody · 31-01-2017 9:07am

Help!!!! wrote: »

Sorry I left out banned for 6 months

There was no, none, nada, ban on Iraq refugees under Obama. What happened was that additional controls which slowed down the number of refugees from 15k to 6k for that year and the year after it was up to 16k again. Every single month however they where allowed in.

So let me repeat, Obama did NOT ban anyone from entering.

Second part the list of countries Trump used and blames Obama for. What Obama did was to add additional controls on people coming from those countries as potential risk but did not ban them either.

LeinsterDub · 31-01-2017 9:09am

Fringe lunatics on both the left and the right aren't representative on either group.

Phoebas · 31-01-2017 9:10am

Help!!!! wrote: »

Sorry I left out banned for 6 months

Can you provide an official link for that?
As I said, the official State Department numbers show at least 400 Iraqi refugees being granted entry to the US every month in the last 10 years.

Here's a link to the numbers:
https://2009-2017.state.gov/j/prm/releases/statistics/184843.htm

Peregrinus · 31-01-2017 9:11am

Help!!!! wrote: »

Sorry I left out banned for 6 months

No, you included it. You said in post #1 that "in 2011 Obama banned Iraqi's refugees from entering the US for 6 months".

The claim was made by Trump himself when announcing his own measure. But in fact the claim is not true. It's an "alternative fact", as the kids say these days. The reason there were no protests when Obama enacted such a ban in 2011 is because he never enacted such a ban.

Reati · 31-01-2017 9:13am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Fringe lunatics on both the left and the right aren't representative on either group.

Unless you're trying to discredit the other side you disagree with then it's all about the acts of the lunatics and a one brush stroke for them all.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 9:13am

Phoebas wrote: »

Can you provide an official link for that?
As I said, the official State Department numbers show at least 400 Iraqi refugees being granted entry to the US every month in the last 10 years.

It wasnt an outright ban but neither is what Trumps doing
http://heavy.com/news/2017/01/barack-obama-ban-refugees-did-iraq-iraqi-muslim-trump-jimmy-carter-iran-iranian-immigration/

Peregrinus · 31-01-2017 9:23am

Help!!!! wrote: »

It wasnt an outright ban but neither is what Trumps doing
http://heavy.com/news/2017/01/barack-obama-ban-refugees-did-iraq-iraqi-muslim-trump-jimmy-carter-iran-iranian-immigration/

The Obama action wasn't a ban at all, and had nothing to do with visas. It was a review of the process for assessing applications for refugee status. The review led to delays in processing, so it took longer for people to get decisions on their applications than would otherwise have been the case but, as already pointed out, applications continued to be processed and the admission of refugees never ceased at any point. This is in no sense comparable to what Trump has done, which is an entry ban, and not one confined to refugees.

Phoebas · 31-01-2017 9:26am

Help!!!! wrote: »

It wasnt an outright ban but neither is what Trumps doing
http://heavy.com/news/2017/01/barack-obama-ban-refugees-did-iraq-iraqi-muslim-trump-jimmy-carter-iran-iranian-immigration/

So this is a load of nonsense then; there was no Obama ban at all. There were still thousands of Iraqi refugees being granted entry to the US throughout 2011.

Help!!!! wrote:

In 2011 Obama banned Iraqi's refugees from entering the US...

Why do people have to be so dishonest in their posting - it just completely undermines the points you are trying to make.

Peregrinus · 31-01-2017 9:32am

Phoebas wrote: »

Why do people have to be so dishonest in their posting - it just completely undermines the points you are trying to make.

In fairness, he's not dishonest - just gullible. He assumes that if the President of the United States says it, it must be more or less true.

He'll learn, I dare say.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 9:33am

Phoebas wrote: »

So this is a load of nonsense then; there was no Obama ban at all. There were still thousands of Iraqi refugees being granted entry to the US throughout 2011.

Why do people have to be so dishonest in their posting - it just completely undermines the points you are trying to make.

Sorry I was not intentionally being dishonest, it was something that I was told which I didnt fully look into before posting

Walter H Price · 31-01-2017 9:36am

Peregrinus wrote: »

The Obama action wasn't a ban at all, and had nothing to do with visas. It was a review of the process for assessing applications for refugee status. The review led to delays in processing, so it took longer for people to get decisions on their applications than would otherwise have been the case but, as already pointed out, applications continued to be processed and the admission of refugees never ceased at any point. This is in no sense comparable to what Trump has done, which is an entry ban, and not one confined to refugees.

if it was a ban on immigration of people with hard christian right wing ideology would the the liberals still protest , would they be shouting Jesus saves at pro abortion women marches ? would they welcome their views on gay rights (i.e there should be none) what is the actual difference with Islam ? i accept all devout Muslims are not terrorists 100% , but all devout Muslims do subscribe to a value and belief system that is an absolute afront to western secular , liberal values arguably even more so then devout Catholics or Jews, so why the support ? Why the Islamophobic branding of anyone who disagrees ? How can Islam be called a Religion of peace when its Prophet was a war mongering pedophile ? you don't have to look at the brutality of ISIS , look at actual Muslim states Saudi , Pakistan etc... look at the brutality and inequality in those society's and explain how anyone in anyway liberally minded can stand in defense of Islam

It makes literally 0 sense for Islamic immigration to have the support it does among the socially left

Tow · 31-01-2017 9:38am

For a more balanced view

Deeyah Khan:
What we don't know about Europe's Muslim kids
https://www.ted.com/talks/deeyah_khan_what_we_don_t_know_about_europe_s_muslim_kids

CMOTDibbler · 31-01-2017 9:39am

Walter H Price wrote: »

if it was a ban on immigration of people with hard christian right wing ideology would the the liberals still protest , would they be shouting Jesus saves at pro abortion women marches ? would they welcome their views on gay rights (i.e there should be none) what is the actual difference with Islam ? i accept all devout Muslims are not terrorists 100% , but all devout Muslims do subscribe to a value and belief system that is an absolute afront to western secular , liberal values arguably even more so then devout Catholics or Jews, so why the support ? Why the Islamophobic branding of anyone who disagrees ? How can Islam be called a Religion of peace when its Prophet was a war mongering pedophile ? you don't have to look at the brutality of ISIS , look at actual Muslim states Saudi , Pakistan etc... look at the brutality and inequality in those society's and explain how anyone in anyway liberally minded can stand in defense of Islam

It makes literally 0 sense for Islamic immigration to have the support it does among the socially left

But it's not a ban on Muslims.

It's a ban on people who have passports from certain countries.

Peregrinus · 31-01-2017 9:43am

Walter H Price wrote: »

It makes literally 0 sense for Islamic immigration to have the support it does among the socially left

But it makes complete sense among the intelligent and the rational.

The whole point about this tiresome "equality" notion that underpins western liberal values is that each of us has our own dignity, our own identity, our own characteristics, and we each have a similar claim to have those respected. So instead of making decisions about me based on generalised and bigoted characterisations of the majority religion of the country of which I am a citizen, you should be making decisions about me based on my characteristics. So banning me from entry because you have some good reason to think that I support political violence is fine; banning me from entry because I have Iraqi citizenship and most Iraqis are Muslims and you think that Muslims are more likely to support political violence than non-Muslims is not.

With this ban, Trump is pissing on the very values that he claims to defend. You may choose to label those who recognise this as "the socially left", but that doesn't really get around the damage that Trump is doing, and that you are ignoring.

Lux23 · 31-01-2017 9:46am

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

But it's not a ban on Muslims.

It's a ban on people who have passports from certain countries.

Hardly matters, this ban is a boon for ISIS and similar organisations. Its a foolish, deliberately divisive action by a man who is essentially trolling the world. What angers me most is people like Spicer and Conway defending it by saying its a measure to protect america. Why the hell isn't Saudi on the list then?

There was another twerp on a news show defending this EO saying that his background was Irish and that he would have accepted a travel ban on Irish people if the country had a problem with terrorism. How stupid can you be?

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 9:48am

Peregrinus wrote: »

But it makes complete sense among the intelligent and the rational.

The whole point about this tiresome "equality" notion that underpins western liberal values is that each of us has our own dignity, our own identity, our own characteristics, and we each have a similar claim to have those respected. So instead of making decisions about me based on generalised and bigoted characterisations of the majority religion of the country of which I am a citizen, you should be making decisions about me based on my characteristics. So banning me from entry because you have some good reason to think that I support political violence is fine; banning me from entry because I have Iraqi citizenship and most Iraqis are Muslims and you think that Muslims are more likely to support political violence than non-Muslims is not.

With this ban, Trump is pissing on the very values that he claims to defend. You may choose to label those who recognise this as "the socially left", but that doesn't really get around the damage that Trump is doing, and that you are ignoring.

If there were a thousand snakes trying to get in to your house & you were told 100 of them are poisonous, would you leave your door open & invite them all in or would you close your door & take your time & bring in the nonpoisonous ones?

Walter H Price · 31-01-2017 9:49am

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

But it's not a ban on Muslims.

It's a ban on people who have passports from certain countries.

My understanding from the title of this thread was that it would be a discussion on why western liberals show support for Islam , not another thread on the travel ban , perhaps i was mistaken.

It has been determined there is strong anti american sentiment in all of the countries affected by the travel ban , it has already been identified by the previous administration with American citizens being advised not to travel to theses ares , in that light surely it makes sense to restrict travel into the states from these countries.

In addition ISIS have openly said they will send jihadis to the west disguised as refugees , this has already been proven to be happening and terrorist attacks have been carried out in Europe, we live in uncertain times i see Trumps restrictions as far more an appropriate solution for protecting the people who elected him then Merkel or Holland's open door policy's which have lead to crime and terrorism in their respective countries.

Phoebas · 31-01-2017 9:50am

Help!!!! wrote: »

If there were a thousand snakes trying to get in to your house & you were told 100 of them are poisonous, would you leave your door open & invite them all in or would you close your door & take your time & bring in the nonpoisonous ones?

Comparing Muslims to snakes.
Classy.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 9:53am

Phoebas wrote: »

Comparing Muslims to snakes.
Classy.

Not comparing anyone to snakes, it was something I was told many years ago

NIMAN · 31-01-2017 9:54am

I thought I heard a report on the radio the other day that Obama actually did some ground work which made it easier for trump to introduce this ban?

Anyone know if this is true? Apparently he had already banned certain nationalities or started the ball rolling to?

Nody · 31-01-2017 9:57am

NIMAN wrote: »

I thought I heard a report on the radio the other day that Obama actually did some ground work which made it easier for trump to introduce this ban?

Anyone know if this is true? Apparently he had already banned certain nationalities or started the ball rolling to?

Obama had requested additional checks on people from these countries; nothing else. Trump in his endless wisdom of saying Obama does everything wrong then takes the exact same list an declares they are not allowed to travel into USA. No check with CIA, DoD etc. if the list needs to be amended or altered based on the current situation because Trump knows best; who needs experts when Trump heard someone tell a story about it so it has to be true.

jay1988 · 31-01-2017 10:00am

Phoebas wrote: »

Comparing Muslims to snakes.
Classy.

Jesus that's some twisting of a post right there.

Have you been waiting long to be offended today?

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 10:00am

Nody wrote: »

Obama had requested additional checks on people from these countries; nothing else. Trump in his endless wisdom of saying Obama does everything wrong then takes the exact same list an declares they are not allowed to travel into USA. No check with CIA, DoD etc. if the list needs to be amended or altered based on the current situation because Trump knows best; who needs experts when Trump heard someone tell a story about it so it has to be true.

In fairness it was part of his election campaign so maybe he should be applauded for actually doing the things that got him voted in. Anyway can we leave the travel ban to other threads & get back to the title of the thread

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 10:01am

jay1988 wrote: »

Jesus that's some twisting of a post right there.

Have you been waiting long to be offended today?

Its ok I wasnt offended by him/her trying to twist the post

Nody · 31-01-2017 10:04am

Help!!!! wrote: »

In fairness it was part of his election campaign so maybe he should be applauded for actually doing the things that got him voted in. Anyway can we leave the travel ban to other threads & get back to the title of the thread

Except making America great again, making America safe again and bringing the jobs back to America. But I guess those promises really did not matter a whole lot.

Walter H Price · 31-01-2017 10:06am

Nody wrote: »

Except making America great again, making America safe again and bringing the jobs back to America. But I guess those promises really did not matter a whole lot.

He's not even in office 2 weeks , relax like ... at least give him the 4 years before trying to judge whether he's broken all his election promises.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 10:06am

Nody wrote: »

Except making America great again, making America safe again and bringing the jobs back to America. But I guess those promises really did not matter a whole lot.

Jeez one step at a time he's only been in the job a week. Its funny how people seem to think the problems with America only started with Trump

Permabear · 31-01-2017 10:13am

This post has been deleted.

CMOTDibbler · 31-01-2017 10:19am

Walter H Price wrote: »

My understanding from the title of this thread was that it would be a discussion on why western liberals show support for Islam , not another thread on the travel ban , perhaps i was mistaken.

It has been determined there is strong anti american sentiment in all of the countries affected by the travel ban , it has already been identified by the previous administration with American citizens being advised not to travel to theses ares , in that light surely it makes sense to restrict travel into the states from these countries.

In addition ISIS have openly said they will send jihadis to the west disguised as refugees , this has already been proven to be happening and terrorist attacks have been carried out in Europe, we live in uncertain times i see Trumps restrictions as far more an appropriate solution for protecting the people who elected him then Merkel or Holland's open door policy's which have lead to crime and terrorism in their respective countries.

You started your post comparing the ban to one on right-wing Christians. I just pointed out that religion has nothing to do with it. Which I see now that you've acknowledged.

Walter H Price · 31-01-2017 10:32am

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

You started your post comparing the ban to one on right-wing Christians. I just pointed out that religion has nothing to do with it. Which I see now that you've acknowledged.

i understand , why i was trying to say was why the massive gulf in how western liberals view devout Catholics vs devout Muslims ? i'm an athiest so have very little vested interest , i think both are regressive doctrines that are way out of touch with a modern western lifestyle , both are discriminatory , intolerant and backwards in their thinking and teaching.

why do socially left Europeans ridicule and clash so regularly with devout followers of one faith but not the other , when the other is if anything just a more extream version of the same base ideology and value system ?

I was recently called Islamophobic by an incredibly liberal friend of ours who's gay, i was a little bemused to be honest given how negative he is twords the catholic church and devout Catholics (perfectly understandable in view given their position on his sexual orientation ) but surly Islam and devout Muslims have just if not a more negative and regressive view on homosexuality , so why defend their faith ?

Nody · 31-01-2017 10:39am

Help!!!! wrote: »

Jeez one step at a time he's only been in the job a week. Its funny how people seem to think the problems with America only started with Trump

He can be there for four years but you can already predict the outcome now.

America great again? Well seeing the protests nationally and the world view clearly this is not the case.

America safe again? Once again ISIS has declared Trump's ban the best thing since the 2003 invasion of Iraq for recruiting more people and that by extension means more attacks. Add in the general hostility by Trump, the fact he fires most of the experts on Council of National Defense and puts on there a complete incompetent racist without experience will only increase the death toll of Americans and this is before we move into the war with China (yes China has declared that war with USA looks inevitable; so much for Trump being the choice for peace and instead of possibly fighting an ex power house with allies Trump is taking on the new powerhouse alone).

Bringing jobs back to America - Pulling out of the TTP China will now step in instead; do you think China will promote fair and honest competition or do you think they will skew it in their favour? This will reduce USAs competitiveness world wide and in the USA due to cheaper imports due to significantly lowered standards. USA can not compete on having lower standards than China simply because it does not have the population or mentality to do so and USA have now given free reign to China to write the rules. Trump tries to play mercantilism except it has been tried, and failed, for hundreds of years consistently. All it does is set up more job losses, lower standards and less competitiveness of the American economy which will not affect Trump and the like but the workers on the ground sure will feel the pinch.

BoJack Horseman · 31-01-2017 10:43am

Help!!!! wrote: »

As the title says are the left being brainwashed by Islam??

No....
The Left knows fully what islamism & jihadism offer.

Their alliance is merely strategic & will probably only last as long as they both have the common enemy of liberal capitalist democracies to fight.

Asian/African states that are somewhat-socialist don't have any fondness for islamism knowing that they are vying with each other for dominance.

I see the lefts alliance with Islamism as a marriage of convenience.
They know that if they could the islamists would dispatch the left just as enthusiastically.

CMOTDibbler · 31-01-2017 10:46am

Walter H Price wrote: »

i understand , why i was trying to say was why the massive gulf in how western liberals view devout Catholics vs devout Muslims ? i'm an athiest so have very little vested interest , i think both are regressive doctrines that are way out of touch with a modern western lifestyle , both are discriminatory , intolerant and backwards in their thinking and teaching.

why do socially left Europeans ridicule and clash so regularly with devout followers of one faith but not the other , when the other is if anything just a more extream version of the same base ideology and value system ?

I was recently called Islamophobic by an incredibly liberal friend of ours who's gay, i was a little bemused to be honest given how negative he is twords the catholic church and devout Catholics (perfectly understandable in view given their position on his sexual orientation ) but surly Islam and devout Muslims have just if not a more negative and regressive view on homosexuality , so why defend their faith ?

I suspect that it's the general versus the particular.

The general discourse is that all Muslims are bad and there's no difference between a moderate Muslim and a jihadist. Or if there is, it's not worth the trouble to work out which is which. Shades of "Kill them all, God will know his own".

The other side of the coin allows for a distinction between a Christian and a fundamentalist Christian. The negative feeling your friend has towards the Catholic Church is one based on his own experience. Always difficult to get people to step back from the subjective and be objective in those circumstances. On the other hand, he may not like the Catholic Church's teachings, but does he fear and/or hate all Catholics as a result?

Nody · 31-01-2017 10:53am

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The other side of the coin allows for a distinction between a Christian and a fundamentalist Christian. The negative feeling your friend has towards the Catholic Church is one based on his own experience. Always difficult to get people to step back from the subjective and be objective in those circumstances. On the other hand, he may not like the Catholic Church's teachings, but does he fear and/or hate all Catholics as a result?

My wife would fall in a similar category I'd suspect; she grew up being heavily involved in the Catholic Church to the point of considering becoming a nun; once she realized her doubts actually had real cause that could not be answered ("It's faith"; "Don't question the wisdom of the bible") she switched and will have a hissy fit over the Church and it's teachings due to personal experience but would not hate individuals. She may think they are stupid to believe in it but she'd not hate them for doing so where as she definitely hates the church.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 10:57am

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I suspect that it's the general versus the particular.

The general discourse is that all Muslims are bad and there's no difference between a moderate Muslim and a jihadist. Or if there is, it's not worth the trouble to work out which is which. Shades of "Kill them all, God will know his own".

50% of Muslims in the UK feel that homosexuality should be illegal & their supposed to be more moderate. Go walk around East London near the mosques & you will see the Sharia Law patrols stopping non Muslims & telling them its a Muslim area

Nody · 31-01-2017 11:00am

Help!!!! wrote: »

50% of Muslims in the UK feel that homosexuality should be illegal & their supposed to be more moderate. Go walk around East London near the mosques & you will see the Sharia Law patrols stopping non Muslims & telling them its a Muslim area

And the Republican party went to election on the banning of abortions in 2016 and lets not even go into the question of marriage rights so that's throwing stone in a glass house if anything.

Walter H Price · 31-01-2017 11:01am

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I suspect that it's the general versus the particular.

The general discourse is that all Muslims are bad and there's no difference between a moderate Muslim and a jihadist. Or if there is, it's not worth the trouble to work out which is which. Shades of "Kill them all, God will know his own".

The other side of the coin allows for a distinction between a Christian and a fundamentalist Christian. The negative feeling your friend has towards the Catholic Church is one based on his own experience. Always difficult to get people to step back from the subjective and be objective in those circumstances. On the other hand, he may not like the Catholic Church's teachings, but does he fear and/or hate all Catholics as a result?

i would say he has an incredibly adverserial relationship with those who subscribe to the teachings of ther church , he would perceive that they were the ones who voted against gay marraige etc , very hard to get through to him though there isnt a single majority muslim country where gay marriage is legal , and that in many it is still a crime in some punishable by death.

I have yet to met a moderate Muslim those i have met seem to fall into one of two catagorys either totaly lapsed , effectively atheist or apostates who have moved to the west and are no longer into the fairy stories , mosque etc... one girl i met in my masters class was actually grated asylum here after she became left Islam her application was accepted as her life would have been in danger had she returned to Saudi Arabia , the others are devout they go to mosque they believe women are second class , homosexuality is a crime etc ... there doesn't seem to be much of cutural Muslim thing like we have cultural Catholics here its either your in or your out. I support Villa and spend a good bit of time in Bermingham met allot there , you would think normal lads if your talking to them about football, but they have shocking views of women and would be very openly homophobic etc ...

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 11:08am

Nody wrote: »

And the Republican party went to election on the banning of abortions in 2016 and lets not even go into the question of marriage rights so that's throwing stone in a glass house if anything.

Well right back at you....same things with Muslims. Look I've had my experiences with Muslims, have had a good laugh with some, some I would call mates but there's that little niggling feeling I get when they talk about religion or women. I've seen plenty of examples of women being abused by Muslim men on buses or on the street.

CMOTDibbler · 31-01-2017 11:09am

Help!!!! wrote: »

50% of Muslims in the UK feel that homosexuality should be illegal & their supposed to be more moderate. Go walk around East London near the mosques & you will see the Sharia Law patrols stopping non Muslims & telling them its a Muslim area

It's not so long ago that we thought the same thing. And had laws to enforce it. Twenty-three years ago to be exact.

I don't know why you bring up these 'Sharia Law' patrols when discussing moderate Islam. I could equally bring up the Britain First 'Christian patrols'. All are illegal and have been stopped by police.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 11:13am

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It's not so long ago that we thought the same thing. And had laws to enforce it. Twenty-three years ago to be exact.

I don't know why you bring up these 'Sharia Law' patrols when discussing moderate Islam. I could equally bring up the Britain First 'Christian patrols'. All are illegal and have been stopped by police.

Because in my experience there is no moderate Muslim. Talk out of turn about Islam or Mohammed & you will see them change. There is no debating with them.

Mehapoy · 31-01-2017 11:14am

I think many in the 'progressive' left are so consumed with identity politics and victimhood their ideological prism just does not allow them to see all Muslims as anything but victims, hence the 'ride with me' mentality, rushing to ordinary muslims aid against imagined oppression when islamists attack, and excusing the attacks as payback for western intervention. Its a similar mentality that says women can't be sexist or black people(or people of colour) can't be racist. They just cannot countenance criticism of any aspect of Islam as they regard Muslims as the apex of the victimhood identity politics.

Walter H Price · 31-01-2017 11:14am

Nody wrote: »

And the Republican party went to election on the banning of abortions in 2016 and lets not even go into the question of marriage rights so that's throwing stone in a glass house if anything.

but there is no confusion with why anyone who is socially liberal takes issue with the Republicans , i would struggle with most of their christian influenced BS too to be honest, though acknowledge they have to somewhat play up to that to get elected. The same with ridiculing the catholic church and having a a somewhat adversarial relationship with devout christians , it makes sense as their views and values are vastly different.

The confusion is why with why they support and defend devout Muslims and Islam when their views are just as opposed and regressive to liberal values as the Reopulican christian right and the Christian churches ?

Walter H Price · 31-01-2017 11:15am

Nody wrote: »

And the Republican party went to election on the banning of abortions in 2016 and lets not even go into the question of marriage rights so that's throwing stone in a glass house if anything.

but there is no confusion with why anyone who is socially liberal takes issue with the Republicans , i would struggle with most of their christian influenced BS too to be honest, though acknowledge they have to somewhat play up to that to get elected. The same with ridiculing the catholic church and having a a somewhat adversarial relationship with devout christians , it makes sense as their views and values are vastly different.

The confusion is why with why they support and defend devout Muslims and Islam when their views are just as opposed and regressive to liberal values as the Repulican christian right and the Christian churches ?

Are the left being brainwashed by Islam?? - Mod warning in OP

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