Are the left being brainwashed by Islam?? - Mod warning in OP

ArnieSilvia · 31-01-2017 1:14pm

Good comment on that video - they bring the "peace" in truck loads.

Islam has some elements to it that could appeal to people looking for equality in SOME aspects of life (interest on loans etc) however I can't figure it out how one could stretch it so far. It's not working in a way that you pick and choose, it's either all or nothing, so yes, interest free loans but also underage marriage, no gay rights, burkas etc.

These protesters would spend their time more effectively if they protested against a set of issues and working towards resolving them, rather than supporting a system that in theory makes people happy but quick look at Muslim societies involved and it becomes clear that it's Orwellian reality.

I had a look at houses for sale in Pakistan, the gates and walls were massive on some of them, contrast between this and street outside was crazy, why would you need these walls in a country defined by religion of peace? Because it's anything but.

donegal. · 31-01-2017 1:42pm

Help!!!! wrote: »

Because in my experience there is no moderate Muslim. Talk out of turn about Islam or Mohammed & you will see them change. There is no debating with them.

I'm not sure it's the left that sound brainwashed.

donaghs · 31-01-2017 1:59pm

Nothing new here. People have often been so wrapped up in antipathy to one thing, that it blinds them to the failings of something else. e.g. people in the 1930s fed up with the failings of Capitalism embracing Fascism or Stalinism.

Or more recently, and much more pertinently, someone like the French philosopher Michel Foucault praising the wonders of the 1979 Iranian revolution. Despite being left-wing and gay, and the increased persecution of which the revolution brought to gay people and the once huge Iranian leftist opposition. Any why? An all-consuming Anti-American, anti-capitalist world-view I suppose.

http://www.philosophersmag.com/index.php/reflections/80-michel-foucault-s-iranian-folly
Good quote from an Iranian feminist in 1978: "The Left should not let itself be seduced by a cure that is perhaps worse than the disease".

sbsquarepants · 31-01-2017 2:08pm

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

I had a look at houses for sale in Pakistan.

This commuting is getting out of hand:)

Religion of peace my arse. Islam has very little going for it as far as I can see. All religions seek to limit your freedom and control you to some extent, but hardcore Islam is like Catholicism on crack.

You get this liberal, remember the crusades or the magdelene laundries bullshít, and yes we certainly should remember those things and in fact it is the very memory of those things that has caused us en mass to turn our backs on Catholicism. It's fairly clear to me that we are much better off having done that.
There should be absolutely no allowances made for Islamism, Buddhism, Hinduism or Spaghetti Monsterism for that matter.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 2:16pm

donegal. wrote: »

I'm not sure it's the left that sound brainwashed.

Just personal experience, no brainwashing

ArnieSilvia · 31-01-2017 2:34pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

This commuting is getting out of hand:)

:pac:

I was checking what it was all about due to my daughter's friend at school constantly bragging about their mansion in Pakistan (including servants and other stuff making my blood boil). The same friend that called my daughter "dirty" along with her other muslim friends, for eating a ham sandwich. My daughter hasn't eaten a ham sandwich since. They went back to Pakistan last year. Farewell, farewell, we won't be missing you.

Lux23 · 31-01-2017 2:51pm

Help!!!! wrote: »

Well right back at you....same things with Muslims. Look I've had my experiences with Muslims, have had a good laugh with some, some I would call mates but there's that little niggling feeling I get when they talk about religion or women. I've seen plenty of examples of women being abused by Muslim men on buses or on the street.

As a woman I have had Muslim men (or so they appear to be) make sexual comments to me, but the vast majority of abuse I have gotten or witnessed was from an Irish or man with a white, christian background. I live on a street with many Muslims and yea I may get the odd look now and then but for the most they just go about their business. So anecdotally I don't think Muslim men are any better or any worse than their white, christian counterparts. I suppose the difference is that men are allowed to be abusive by law and everything is stacked against a woman.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 3:06pm

Lux23 wrote: »

As a woman I have had Muslim men (or so they appear to be) make sexual comments to me, but the vast majority of abuse I have gotten or witnessed was from an Irish or man with a white, christian background. I live on a street with many Muslims and yea I may get the odd look now and then but for the most they just go about their business. So anecdotally I don't think Muslim men are any better or any worse than their white, christian counterparts. I suppose the difference is that men are allowed to be abusive by law and everything is stacked against a woman.

I take it your talking about Dublin?? They are much different in areas where they are the minority, try walking around Bradford, Luton, East London or some other area where they are the majority & you will see the difference.
Totally agree white (whatever) men can do the same

red ears · 31-01-2017 4:40pm

Lux23 wrote: »

As a woman I have had Muslim men (or so they appear to be) make sexual comments to me, but the vast majority of abuse I have gotten or witnessed was from an Irish or man with a white, christian background. I live on a street with many Muslims and yea I may get the odd look now and then but for the most they just go about their business. So anecdotally I don't think Muslim men are any better or any worse than their white, christian counterparts. I suppose the difference is that men are allowed to be abusive by law and everything is stacked against a woman.

What do you mean?

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 4:47pm

red ears wrote: »

What do you mean?

Hoping shes talking about in Muslim countries

Lux23 · 31-01-2017 5:35pm

red ears wrote: »

What do you mean?

As in some Muslim countries have laws that allow men to rape women if they marry them afterwards or they allowed beat their wives by law.

Lux23 · 31-01-2017 5:42pm

Help!!!! wrote: »

I take it your talking about Dublin?? They are much different in areas where they are the minority, try walking around Bradford, Luton, East London or some other area where they are the majority & you will see the difference.
Totally agree white (whatever) men can do the same

I have visited Bradford and Burnley, I can't say I thought it was any different. Ive family living Burnley and most of their friends/neighbours are of Pakistani descent and they seem to live side-by-side. You get scallywags everywhere and from all backgrounds and its the scallys, whether they be white, yellow or black, that create the problems.

Regardless of their views/culture, why does that make it acceptable to discriminate all Muslims? Trump's ban affects women and children, not just men. It's wrong.

weisses · 31-01-2017 5:50pm

Help!!!! wrote: »

If there were a thousand snakes trying to get in to your house & you were told 100 of them are poisonous, would you leave your door open & invite them all in or would you close your door & take your time & bring in the nonpoisonous ones?

Who wants any snakes into the house ?

If you want to use an example at least try one that actually makes sense

weisses · 31-01-2017 5:56pm

Help!!!! wrote: »

Not calling you Muslim just saying the same thing you say about republicans you can say about Muslims. Yes they both have backwards views but the republicans are not going to stone you for not agreeing with theirs. The problem is that the more Muslims come to the west the more the left are going to bend over backwards to accommodate them

You have trouble looking for normal Muslims ? (moderate)

Look at your own contributions

Help!!!! wrote: »

Look I've had my experiences with Muslims, have had a good laugh with some, some I would call mates

Will these "mates stone you to death for not sharing their backwards views

Do you think your Muslim friends brainwashed you ?

Nody · 31-01-2017 5:59pm

Lux23 wrote: »

As in some Muslim countries have laws that allow men to rape women if they marry them afterwards or they allowed beat their wives by law.

Other way around; if they rape a woman and end up getting married the rape case is dropped but the law does not state they can rape a woman if they marry her (though by extension some countries don't recognise marriageable rape as a possibility). Intention being since a raped woman is "worth less" that loss does not hurt the family. Utterly ****ing stupid but hey; patriarchal society issue more so than Islam (because if it was Islam driven it should be applicable everywhere which is not the case). Turkey was due to implement such a law for underage girls but it thankfully got scrapped.

Second part has a section in Islam from memory; the interpretation of it varies widely from the Russian level of beat the living crap out of a wife (which is hard to justify but usually gotten around by declaring they are not proper wives and hence can be dealt with any way they want ala ISIS) to lightly tap his wife (never in the face) and only as a last resort if she is disobedient to simply outright banned (it comes down to how the word is to be translated in the sense of beat it rather than beat them and which verses are used in conjunction).

Hank Scorpio · 31-01-2017 6:16pm

Imo a lot of the people protesting, have no idea what they are protesting for. As long as any entity is against Trump, they will side with it.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 6:19pm

weisses wrote: »

You have trouble looking for normal Muslims ? (moderate)

Look at your own contributions

Will these "mates stone you to death for not sharing their backwards views

Do you think your Muslim friends brainwashed you ?

As I've said before in my experience there are no moderate Muslims.
Well having seen how they react when their religion or prophet is questioned I wouldn't put be 100% sure they wouldn't stone me
I was not brainwashed because I have my own mind & experiences

weisses · 31-01-2017 6:20pm

Help!!!! wrote: »

As I've said before in my experience there are no moderate Muslims.
Well having seen how they react when their religion or prophet is questioned I wouldn't put be 100% sure they wouldn't stone me
I was not brainwashed because I have my own mind & experiences

And yet you are not sure your mates wouldn't stone you to death ...... I find that a very disturbing mindset

Wheeliebin30 · 31-01-2017 6:20pm

Lux23 wrote: »

I have visited Bradford and Burnley, I can't say I thought it was any different. Ive family living Burnley and most of their friends/neighbours are of Pakistani descent and they seem to live side-by-side. You get scallywags everywhere and from all backgrounds and its the scallys, whether they be white, yellow or black, that create the problems.

Regardless of their views/culture, why does that make it acceptable to discriminate all Muslims? Trump's ban affects women and children, not just men. It's wrong.

How is he discriminating against all Muslims?

He banned people from 7 of 56 Muslim countries.

Seriously think about that.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 6:24pm

weisses wrote: »

And yet you are not sure your mates wouldn't stone you to death ...... I find that a very disturbing mindset

Just my experience find it disturbing if you want. Where do you live?

WoolyJumper · 31-01-2017 6:30pm

Walter H Price wrote: »

I don't know is brainwashed the right term but certainly its odd the relationship between the those who are socially left leaning and Islam. You would imagine they would have a similar adversarial relationship with devout Muslims as the have with devout Christians , at the end of the day both religions are very similar in their treatment of women as second class , gays , atheists etc... they have similar views on abortion which again those who are socially more liberal strongly disagree with.

sharia law goes much further even then cannon law in terms of punishments , beheadings , public floggings , rape victims being treated as criminals , stoning's and other medevil punishments for crimes such as adulatory , child marraiges etc.... Sharia Law is an absolute a front to the liberal western values thees people hold yet they are strong to defend Islam , Muslims and to an extent sharia even, its bizar.

I'm an athiest would describe myself as socialy right leaning in terms of welfare and immigration but more liberterian in my outlook in relation to abortion , gay rights , legalization of drugs etc... which i fully support. I would have a similar reaction to a devout muslim as i would to a devout jew or catholic in that i would strongly disagree with their beliefs and hold firm that their beliefs should be placed on a pedastal free from challenge or criticism. What facinates me with the socialy left is that they seem to be able to differentiate between the two and show respect for Islam but challenge and ridicule Catholicism , i have no idea why this is, i have been call Islamophobic many times for expressing my disgust at sharia law or making a joke about the Muslim faith but never Christianophobic (if such a term even exists) for expressing similar views towards the catholic church its teachings and position on certain social issues.

I would consider my self socially left. I'm also gay and an Atheist. From my point of view I don't agree with much of Islam, same with Christianity and Judaism. In fact I would say I strongly dislike Islam as a faith. I would be completely opposed to Sharia and would not like to see laws being built around any particular faith, including Islam. I am also completely opposed to setting up faith based schools. I would personally prefer to see all kids educated together, learning about each others faiths.

In saying that, while I dislike the religion I have no problems with Muslims themselves. I find myself coming to the defence of Muslims a lot. Mainly because as a group I find they are often unfairly judged, stereotyped and sometimes even ostracised. It's also my belief that these things only work to create more extremism. I am also aware that the actions of many western countries have lead to the development of many of the extremist groups that most average muslims get lumped in with.

I'm not pretending like there isn't a problem of extremism in Islam or that the average muslim views are more extreme than the average christian, however I don't think the way "the right" want to deal with the problem will resolve anything. In fact I think it will make things worse. Demonising a group will only work to create more extremism.

Basically what I'm saying is there is a difference between supporting Muslims and supporting Islam. I would guess that most on the left would share my line of thinking where they support muslims while disliking the religion itself. I would feel the same about Christianity if I felt they were persecuted (in the West) however generally they are not.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 6:39pm

WoolyJumper wrote: »

I would consider my self socially left. I'm also gay and an Atheist. From my point of view I don't agree with much of Islam, same with Christianity and Judaism. In fact I would say I strongly dislike Islam as a faith. I would be completely opposed to Sharia and would not like to see laws being built around any particular faith, including Islam. I am also completely opposed to setting up faith based schools. I would personally prefer to see all kids educated together, learning about each others faiths.

In saying that, while I dislike the religion I have no problems with Muslims themselves. I find myself coming to the defence of Muslims a lot. Mainly because as a group I find they are often unfairly judged, stereotyped and sometimes even ostracised. It's also my belief that these things only work to create more extremism. I am also aware that the actions of many western countries have lead to the development of many of the extremist groups that most average muslims get lumped in with.

I'm not pretending like there isn't a problem of extremism in Islam or that the average muslim views are more extreme than the average christian, however I don't think the way "the right" want to deal with the problem will resolve anything. In fact I think it will make things worse. Demonising a group will only work to create more extremism.

Basically what I'm saying is there is a difference between supporting Muslims and supporting Islam. I would guess that most on the left would share my line of thinking where they support muslims while disliking the religion itself. I would feel the same about Christianity if I felt they were persecuted (in the West) however generally they are not.

I dont understand how you think Muslim's are persecuted in the west. Most countries in Europe were hit hard by the recession & do not have the funds to look after these people. Especially when they have made their way through Turkey or they could have went the other way & gone to Saudi Arabia. Both Muslim countries with similar cultures.

ancapailldorcha · 31-01-2017 6:41pm

Help!!!! wrote: »

Because in my experience there is no moderate Muslim. Talk out of turn about Islam or Mohammed & you will see them change. There is no debating with them.

No more lazy generalisations please.

ancapailldorcha · 31-01-2017 6:47pm

Don't question mod warnings on thread. Use the PM function for questions please.

ancapailldorcha · 31-01-2017 6:48pm

Help!!!! wrote: »

Hoping shes talking about in Muslim countries

This is not acceptable. Please read the charter before posting again.

CalamariFritti · 31-01-2017 6:50pm

I think what the left have a problem with is any hint of discrimination and generalisations based on religion. And rightly so. Similar to that line that is often (wrongly?) attributed to Voltaire that goes 'I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It'.
Thats how some 'left' may defend someone or something they don't necessarily agree with. Because they feel that someone is being discriminated against. We're nice people like that.

But of course just like the right the left has fruit cake types that are so caught up in their world that they no longer see the wood for the trees. These types will apply the above line to everyone else but the right, too.

Just like I don't think anyone who thinks a bit right is out at night burning crosses we shouldn't think that these fruit cake types are representative of 'the left'.

KingBrian2 · 31-01-2017 6:55pm

Religious discrimination and fanaticism of any kind is disgusting be it Christian bashing, anti-Antisemitism or Islamophobia. It does not matter what religion you are by engaging in this sectarianism it just shows what sort of a person you are.

WoolyJumper · 31-01-2017 7:03pm

Help!!!! wrote: »

I dont understand how you think Muslim's are persecuted in the west. Most countries in Europe were hit hard by the recession & do not have the funds to look after these people. Especially when they have made their way through Turkey or they could have went the other way & gone to Saudi Arabia. Both Muslim countries with similar cultures.

Yeah, you are right. I worded my last post badly. I don't think Muslims are persecuted in the West. They are often persecuted in their own countries by extremist groups arguably created with the help of some western nations but that's another discussion.

I do feel they are unfairly stereotyped, judged and even discriminated against. Like I said I don't think this helps to resolve anything. Whether we like it or not there are Muslims in Ireland, in Europe. Demonising them is just going to create more extremism. In a way maybe my approach is more in line with Pragmatism than left. Helping Muslims integrate without making them feel they are losing core parts of their identity rather than pushing them away is the best way forward in my opinion. In my ideal world there would be no religion, but that's not realistic.

We can demonism them and make them feel disenfranchised and disengaged from our society in which case they would most likely become more rigid and cemented in their beliefs and living on the fringe of society or we can make them feel engaged, accepted and part of our society in which case they are more likely to integrate.

CalamariFritti · 31-01-2017 7:07pm

Not sure about that last post of yours you're referring to, I didn't read it, but what you said just there I can get 100% behind, really well said.

rachb · 31-01-2017 7:08pm

Don't know if it's been posted before but it's worth a look

https://youtu.be/pSPvnFDDQHk

Are the left being brainwashed by Islam?? - Mod warning in OP

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