Are the left being brainwashed by Islam?? - Mod warning in OP

Nody

Help!!!! wrote: »

Well right back at you....same things with Muslims. Look I've had my experiences with Muslims, have had a good laugh with some, some I would call mates but there's that little niggling feeling I get when they talk about religion or women. I've seen plenty of examples of women being abused by Muslim men on buses or on the street.

I'm not a Muslim (Christian since birth I'm afraid) nor the one claiming that Muslims somehow are unique in their view. If you want to try to paint Muslims as being bad you need to take a step back and realize that the Republican party stands for just as backwards views as well. I don't agree with either party and as far as I'm concerned you should be allowed to marry as two consenting adults in any combination you want from a legal perspective (the venue of marriage can be a separate topic as I can understand why a religion let's say Catholics would not want people to have a Satantic marriage in their church for example). I'd support various poly forms as well but that would raise some legal questions to be ironed out first.

CMOTDibbler

Walter H Price wrote: »

I have yet to met a moderate Muslim those i have met seem to fall into one of two catagorys either totaly lapsed , effectively atheist or apostates who have moved to the west and are no longer into the fairy stories , mosque etc... one girl i met in my masters class was actually grated asylum here after she became left Islam her application was accepted as her life would have been in danger had she returned to Saudi Arabia , the others are devout they go to mosque they believe women are second class , homosexuality is a crime etc ... there doesn't seem to be much of cutural Muslim thing like we have cultural Catholics here its either your in or your out. I support Villa and spend a good bit of time in Bermingham met allot there , you would think normal lads if your talking to them about football, but they have shocking views of women and would be very openly homophobic etc ...

The difference in my mind is that a moderate would not try to impose their beliefs on others who don't share their faith.

I don't agree with their views on women and homosexuality, but unfortunately, they're not the only people who hold those beliefs.

Help!!!!

Nody wrote: »

I'm not a Muslim (Christian since birth I'm afraid) nor the one claiming that Muslims somehow are unique in their view. If you want to try to paint Muslims as being bad you need to take a step back and realize that the Republican party stands for just as backwards views as well. I don't agree with either party and as far as I'm concerned you should be allowed to marry as two consenting adults in any combination you want. I'd support various poly forms as well but that would raise some legal questions to be ironed out first.

Not calling you Muslim just saying the same thing you say about republicans you can say about Muslims. Yes they both have backwards views but the republicans are not going to stone you for not agreeing with theirs. The problem is that the more Muslims come to the west the more the left are going to bend over backwards to accommodate them

Walter H Price

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The difference in my mind is that a moderate would not try to impose their beliefs on others who don't share their faith.

I don't agree with their views on women and homosexuality, but unfortunately, they're not the only people who hold those beliefs.

i somewhat agree i think to hold views such as women are responsible for being raped and that gays should be in prision is fairly removed from being a moderate , the "moderate" cultural catholics would be people that believe in evolution and would still be critiacal of the churchs handling of child abuse , they wouldnt support the likes of the Iona institue etc but maybe feel the church is part of their cultural identity. i dont find much of that with any of the Muslims i've met , they very much take the teachings of the Koran to 100% true and do hold view i would be very uncomfortable with , perticularly the men.

In college we had a Muslim soc they wanted drinking in the SU banned , Hala in the canteen and even sought an appropriate dress code for girls , yet when they were challenged they just cried racism and islamophobia ... they in no way supported Jihad or terrorism but they were far from moderate in my view

CMOTDibbler

Help!!!! wrote: »

Not calling you Muslim just saying the same thing you say about republicans you can say about Muslims. Yes they both have backwards views but the republicans are not going to stone you for not agreeing with theirs. The problem is that the more Muslims come to the west the more the left are going to bend over backwards to accommodate them

I think you're confusing the general with the particular. Without using labels, people are protesting the blanket assumption that 'all Muslims are bad' in the same way that they'd protest fundamentalist Christians saying that 'all gays are bad'.

There's no paradox there. I doubt you'd find any of these protesters saying that it would be ok to let a jihadist terror cell into the country. It's about proportionate responses rather than knee-jerk ones.

amcalester

Help!!!! wrote: »

50% of Muslims in the UK feel that homosexuality should be illegal & their supposed to be more moderate. Go walk around East London near the mosques & you will see the Sharia Law patrols stopping non Muslims & telling them its a Muslim area

I lived and worked in East London and never experienced any of this, not saying it doesn't happen but can you provide a link to show it does?

CMOTDibbler

amcalester wrote: »

I lived and worked in East London and never experienced any of this, not saying it doesn't happen but can you provide a link to show it does?

It has happened alright. A quick Google would provide some links. It was stamped out pdq though.

Help!!!!

amcalester wrote: »

I lived and worked in East London and never experienced any of this, not saying it doesn't happen but can you provide a link to show it does?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ePY25UPJWs

Help!!!!

Good to see the Germans being consistent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHBkkPMMEDo

Help!!!!

Good to see the Germans being consistent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHBkkPMMEDo

ArnieSilvia

Good comment on that video - they bring the "peace" in truck loads.

Islam has some elements to it that could appeal to people looking for equality in SOME aspects of life (interest on loans etc) however I can't figure it out how one could stretch it so far. It's not working in a way that you pick and choose, it's either all or nothing, so yes, interest free loans but also underage marriage, no gay rights, burkas etc.


These protesters would spend their time more effectively if they protested against a set of issues and working towards resolving them, rather than supporting a system that in theory makes people happy but quick look at Muslim societies involved and it becomes clear that it's Orwellian reality.

I had a look at houses for sale in Pakistan, the gates and walls were massive on some of them, contrast between this and street outside was crazy, why would you need these walls in a country defined by religion of peace? Because it's anything but.

donegal.

Help!!!! wrote: »

Because in my experience there is no moderate Muslim. Talk out of turn about Islam or Mohammed & you will see them change. There is no debating with them.

I'm not sure it's the left that sound brainwashed.

donaghs

Nothing new here. People have often been so wrapped up in antipathy to one thing, that it blinds them to the failings of something else. e.g. people in the 1930s fed up with the failings of Capitalism embracing Fascism or Stalinism.

Or more recently, and much more pertinently, someone like the French philosopher Michel Foucault praising the wonders of the 1979 Iranian revolution. Despite being left-wing and gay, and the increased persecution of which the revolution brought to gay people and the once huge Iranian leftist opposition. Any why? An all-consuming Anti-American, anti-capitalist world-view I suppose.

http://www.philosophersmag.com/index.php/reflections/80-michel-foucault-s-iranian-folly
Good quote from an Iranian feminist in 1978: "The Left should not let itself be seduced by a cure that is perhaps worse than the disease".

sbsquarepants

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

I had a look at houses for sale in Pakistan.

This commuting is getting out of hand:)

Religion of peace my arse. Islam has very little going for it as far as I can see. All religions seek to limit your freedom and control you to some extent, but hardcore Islam is like Catholicism on crack.

You get this liberal, remember the crusades or the magdelene laundries bullshít, and yes we certainly should remember those things and in fact it is the very memory of those things that has caused us en mass to turn our backs on Catholicism. It's fairly clear to me that we are much better off having done that.
There should be absolutely no allowances made for Islamism, Buddhism, Hinduism or Spaghetti Monsterism for that matter.

Help!!!!

donegal. wrote: »

I'm not sure it's the left that sound brainwashed.

Just personal experience, no brainwashing

ArnieSilvia

sbsquarepants wrote: »

This commuting is getting out of hand:)

:pac:

I was checking what it was all about due to my daughter's friend at school constantly bragging about their mansion in Pakistan (including servants and other stuff making my blood boil). The same friend that called my daughter "dirty" along with her other muslim friends, for eating a ham sandwich. My daughter hasn't eaten a ham sandwich since. They went back to Pakistan last year. Farewell, farewell, we won't be missing you.

Lux23

Help!!!! wrote: »

Well right back at you....same things with Muslims. Look I've had my experiences with Muslims, have had a good laugh with some, some I would call mates but there's that little niggling feeling I get when they talk about religion or women. I've seen plenty of examples of women being abused by Muslim men on buses or on the street.

As a woman I have had Muslim men (or so they appear to be) make sexual comments to me, but the vast majority of abuse I have gotten or witnessed was from an Irish or man with a white, christian background. I live on a street with many Muslims and yea I may get the odd look now and then but for the most they just go about their business. So anecdotally I don't think Muslim men are any better or any worse than their white, christian counterparts. I suppose the difference is that men are allowed to be abusive by law and everything is stacked against a woman.

Help!!!!

Lux23 wrote: »

As a woman I have had Muslim men (or so they appear to be) make sexual comments to me, but the vast majority of abuse I have gotten or witnessed was from an Irish or man with a white, christian background. I live on a street with many Muslims and yea I may get the odd look now and then but for the most they just go about their business. So anecdotally I don't think Muslim men are any better or any worse than their white, christian counterparts. I suppose the difference is that men are allowed to be abusive by law and everything is stacked against a woman.

I take it your talking about Dublin?? They are much different in areas where they are the minority, try walking around Bradford, Luton, East London or some other area where they are the majority & you will see the difference.
Totally agree white (whatever) men can do the same

red ears

Lux23 wrote: »

As a woman I have had Muslim men (or so they appear to be) make sexual comments to me, but the vast majority of abuse I have gotten or witnessed was from an Irish or man with a white, christian background. I live on a street with many Muslims and yea I may get the odd look now and then but for the most they just go about their business. So anecdotally I don't think Muslim men are any better or any worse than their white, christian counterparts. I suppose the difference is that men are allowed to be abusive by law and everything is stacked against a woman.

What do you mean?

Help!!!!

red ears wrote: »

What do you mean?

Hoping shes talking about in Muslim countries

Lux23

red ears wrote: »

What do you mean?

As in some Muslim countries have laws that allow men to rape women if they marry them afterwards or they allowed beat their wives by law.

Lux23

Help!!!! wrote: »

I take it your talking about Dublin?? They are much different in areas where they are the minority, try walking around Bradford, Luton, East London or some other area where they are the majority & you will see the difference.
Totally agree white (whatever) men can do the same

I have visited Bradford and Burnley, I can't say I thought it was any different. Ive family living Burnley and most of their friends/neighbours are of Pakistani descent and they seem to live side-by-side. You get scallywags everywhere and from all backgrounds and its the scallys, whether they be white, yellow or black, that create the problems.

Regardless of their views/culture, why does that make it acceptable to discriminate all Muslims? Trump's ban affects women and children, not just men. It's wrong.

weisses

Help!!!! wrote: »

If there were a thousand snakes trying to get in to your house & you were told 100 of them are poisonous, would you leave your door open & invite them all in or would you close your door & take your time & bring in the nonpoisonous ones?

Who wants any snakes into the house ?

If you want to use an example at least try one that actually makes sense

weisses

Help!!!! wrote: »

Not calling you Muslim just saying the same thing you say about republicans you can say about Muslims. Yes they both have backwards views but the republicans are not going to stone you for not agreeing with theirs. The problem is that the more Muslims come to the west the more the left are going to bend over backwards to accommodate them

You have trouble looking for normal Muslims ? (moderate)

Look at your own contributions

Help!!!! wrote: »

Look I've had my experiences with Muslims, have had a good laugh with some, some I would call mates

Will these "mates stone you to death for not sharing their backwards views

Do you think your Muslim friends brainwashed you ?

Nody

Lux23 wrote: »

As in some Muslim countries have laws that allow men to rape women if they marry them afterwards or they allowed beat their wives by law.

Other way around; if they rape a woman and end up getting married the rape case is dropped but the law does not state they can rape a woman if they marry her (though by extension some countries don't recognise marriageable rape as a possibility). Intention being since a raped woman is "worth less" that loss does not hurt the family. Utterly ****ing stupid but hey; patriarchal society issue more so than Islam (because if it was Islam driven it should be applicable everywhere which is not the case). Turkey was due to implement such a law for underage girls but it thankfully got scrapped.

Second part has a section in Islam from memory; the interpretation of it varies widely from the Russian level of beat the living crap out of a wife (which is hard to justify but usually gotten around by declaring they are not proper wives and hence can be dealt with any way they want ala ISIS) to lightly tap his wife (never in the face) and only as a last resort if she is disobedient to simply outright banned (it comes down to how the word is to be translated in the sense of beat it rather than beat them and which verses are used in conjunction).

Hank Scorpio

Imo a lot of the people protesting, have no idea what they are protesting for. As long as any entity is against Trump, they will side with it.

Help!!!!

weisses wrote: »

You have trouble looking for normal Muslims ? (moderate)

Look at your own contributions



Will these "mates stone you to death for not sharing their backwards views

Do you think your Muslim friends brainwashed you ?

As I've said before in my experience there are no moderate Muslims.
Well having seen how they react when their religion or prophet is questioned I wouldn't put be 100% sure they wouldn't stone me
I was not brainwashed because I have my own mind & experiences

Wheeliebin30

Lux23 wrote: »

I have visited Bradford and Burnley, I can't say I thought it was any different. Ive family living Burnley and most of their friends/neighbours are of Pakistani descent and they seem to live side-by-side. You get scallywags everywhere and from all backgrounds and its the scallys, whether they be white, yellow or black, that create the problems.

Regardless of their views/culture, why does that make it acceptable to discriminate all Muslims? Trump's ban affects women and children, not just men. It's wrong.

How is he discriminating against all Muslims?

He banned people from 7 of 56 Muslim countries.

Seriously think about that.

weisses

Help!!!! wrote: »

As I've said before in my experience there are no moderate Muslims.
Well having seen how they react when their religion or prophet is questioned I wouldn't put be 100% sure they wouldn't stone me
I was not brainwashed because I have my own mind & experiences

And yet you are not sure your mates wouldn't stone you to death ...... I find that a very disturbing mindset

Help!!!!

weisses wrote: »

And yet you are not sure your mates wouldn't stone you to death ...... I find that a very disturbing mindset

Just my experience find it disturbing if you want. Where do you live?

WoolyJumper

Walter H Price wrote: »

I don't know is brainwashed the right term but certainly its odd the relationship between the those who are socially left leaning and Islam. You would imagine they would have a similar adversarial relationship with devout Muslims as the have with devout Christians , at the end of the day both religions are very similar in their treatment of women as second class , gays , atheists etc... they have similar views on abortion which again those who are socially more liberal strongly disagree with.

sharia law goes much further even then cannon law in terms of punishments , beheadings , public floggings , rape victims being treated as criminals , stoning's and other medevil punishments for crimes such as adulatory , child marraiges etc.... Sharia Law is an absolute a front to the liberal western values thees people hold yet they are strong to defend Islam , Muslims and to an extent sharia even, its bizar.

I'm an athiest would describe myself as socialy right leaning in terms of welfare and immigration but more liberterian in my outlook in relation to abortion , gay rights , legalization of drugs etc... which i fully support. I would have a similar reaction to a devout muslim as i would to a devout jew or catholic in that i would strongly disagree with their beliefs and hold firm that their beliefs should be placed on a pedastal free from challenge or criticism. What facinates me with the socialy left is that they seem to be able to differentiate between the two and show respect for Islam but challenge and ridicule Catholicism , i have no idea why this is, i have been call Islamophobic many times for expressing my disgust at sharia law or making a joke about the Muslim faith but never Christianophobic (if such a term even exists) for expressing similar views towards the catholic church its teachings and position on certain social issues.

I would consider my self socially left. I'm also gay and an Atheist. From my point of view I don't agree with much of Islam, same with Christianity and Judaism. In fact I would say I strongly dislike Islam as a faith. I would be completely opposed to Sharia and would not like to see laws being built around any particular faith, including Islam. I am also completely opposed to setting up faith based schools. I would personally prefer to see all kids educated together, learning about each others faiths.

In saying that, while I dislike the religion I have no problems with Muslims themselves. I find myself coming to the defence of Muslims a lot. Mainly because as a group I find they are often unfairly judged, stereotyped and sometimes even ostracised. It's also my belief that these things only work to create more extremism. I am also aware that the actions of many western countries have lead to the development of many of the extremist groups that most average muslims get lumped in with.

I'm not pretending like there isn't a problem of extremism in Islam or that the average muslim views are more extreme than the average christian, however I don't think the way "the right" want to deal with the problem will resolve anything. In fact I think it will make things worse. Demonising a group will only work to create more extremism.

Basically what I'm saying is there is a difference between supporting Muslims and supporting Islam. I would guess that most on the left would share my line of thinking where they support muslims while disliking the religion itself. I would feel the same about Christianity if I felt they were persecuted (in the West) however generally they are not.

Help!!!!

WoolyJumper wrote: »

I would consider my self socially left. I'm also gay and an Atheist. From my point of view I don't agree with much of Islam, same with Christianity and Judaism. In fact I would say I strongly dislike Islam as a faith. I would be completely opposed to Sharia and would not like to see laws being built around any particular faith, including Islam. I am also completely opposed to setting up faith based schools. I would personally prefer to see all kids educated together, learning about each others faiths.

In saying that, while I dislike the religion I have no problems with Muslims themselves. I find myself coming to the defence of Muslims a lot. Mainly because as a group I find they are often unfairly judged, stereotyped and sometimes even ostracised. It's also my belief that these things only work to create more extremism. I am also aware that the actions of many western countries have lead to the development of many of the extremist groups that most average muslims get lumped in with.

I'm not pretending like there isn't a problem of extremism in Islam or that the average muslim views are more extreme than the average christian, however I don't think the way "the right" want to deal with the problem will resolve anything. In fact I think it will make things worse. Demonising a group will only work to create more extremism.

Basically what I'm saying is there is a difference between supporting Muslims and supporting Islam. I would guess that most on the left would share my line of thinking where they support muslims while disliking the religion itself. I would feel the same about Christianity if I felt they were persecuted (in the West) however generally they are not.

I dont understand how you think Muslim's are persecuted in the west. Most countries in Europe were hit hard by the recession & do not have the funds to look after these people. Especially when they have made their way through Turkey or they could have went the other way & gone to Saudi Arabia. Both Muslim countries with similar cultures.

ancapailldorcha

Help!!!! wrote: »

Because in my experience there is no moderate Muslim. Talk out of turn about Islam or Mohammed & you will see them change. There is no debating with them.

No more lazy generalisations please.

ancapailldorcha

Don't question mod warnings on thread. Use the PM function for questions please.

ancapailldorcha

Help!!!! wrote: »

Hoping shes talking about in Muslim countries

This is not acceptable. Please read the charter before posting again.

CalamariFritti

I think what the left have a problem with is any hint of discrimination and generalisations based on religion. And rightly so. Similar to that line that is often (wrongly?) attributed to Voltaire that goes 'I Disapprove of What You Say, But I Will Defend to the Death Your Right to Say It'.
Thats how some 'left' may defend someone or something they don't necessarily agree with. Because they feel that someone is being discriminated against. We're nice people like that.

But of course just like the right the left has fruit cake types that are so caught up in their world that they no longer see the wood for the trees. These types will apply the above line to everyone else but the right, too.

Just like I don't think anyone who thinks a bit right is out at night burning crosses we shouldn't think that these fruit cake types are representative of 'the left'.

KingBrian2

Religious discrimination and fanaticism of any kind is disgusting be it Christian bashing, anti-Antisemitism or Islamophobia. It does not matter what religion you are by engaging in this sectarianism it just shows what sort of a person you are.

WoolyJumper

Help!!!! wrote: »

I dont understand how you think Muslim's are persecuted in the west. Most countries in Europe were hit hard by the recession & do not have the funds to look after these people. Especially when they have made their way through Turkey or they could have went the other way & gone to Saudi Arabia. Both Muslim countries with similar cultures.

Yeah, you are right. I worded my last post badly. I don't think Muslims are persecuted in the West. They are often persecuted in their own countries by extremist groups arguably created with the help of some western nations but that's another discussion.

I do feel they are unfairly stereotyped, judged and even discriminated against. Like I said I don't think this helps to resolve anything. Whether we like it or not there are Muslims in Ireland, in Europe. Demonising them is just going to create more extremism. In a way maybe my approach is more in line with Pragmatism than left. Helping Muslims integrate without making them feel they are losing core parts of their identity rather than pushing them away is the best way forward in my opinion. In my ideal world there would be no religion, but that's not realistic.

We can demonism them and make them feel disenfranchised and disengaged from our society in which case they would most likely become more rigid and cemented in their beliefs and living on the fringe of society or we can make them feel engaged, accepted and part of our society in which case they are more likely to integrate.

CalamariFritti

Not sure about that last post of yours you're referring to, I didn't read it, but what you said just there I can get 100% behind, really well said.

rachb

Don't know if it's been posted before but it's worth a look


https://youtu.be/pSPvnFDDQHk

Help!!!!

WoolyJumper wrote: »

Yeah, you are right. I worded my last post badly. I don't think Muslims are persecuted in the West. They are often persecuted in their own countries by extremist groups arguably created with the help of some western nations but that's another discussion.

I do feel they are unfairly stereotyped, judged and even discriminated against. Like I said I don't think this helps to resolve anything. Whether we like it or not there are Muslims in Ireland, in Europe. Demonising them is just going to create more extremism. In a way maybe my approach is more in line with Pragmatism than left. Helping Muslims integrate without making them feel they are losing core parts of their identity rather than pushing them away is the best way forward in my opinion. In my ideal world there would be no religion, but that's not realistic.

We can demonism them and make them feel disenfranchised and disengaged from our society in which case they would most likely become more rigid and cemented in their beliefs and living on the fringe of society or we can make them feel engaged, accepted and part of our society in which case they are more likely to integrate.

I think the fact its a mass migration of them while people are still recovering from austerity that has put peoples backs up the most. That & the fact that if you disagreed with the left you were branded a racist. I have been an immigrant, am married to an immigrant so I am not against immigration as long as its controlled & the people of Ireland are not taken for mugs when being told we are taking children when infact its grown men with beards coming in

oscarBravo

Help!!!! wrote: »

I think the fact its a mass migration of them...

Is it? How many Muslims came to Ireland last year?

...I am not against immigration as long as its controlled...

It is controlled. So I guess you're happy with the status quo?

Help!!!!

oscarBravo wrote: »

Is it? How many Muslims came to Ireland last year? It is controlled. So I guess you're happy with the status quo?

If you read the posts you will see we were talking about the west not just Ireland
Well we dont know if its controlled just yet, will you be happy if the next group are grown men with beards instead of women & children that we were told we were going to get

ancapailldorcha

rachb wrote: »

Don't know if it's been posted before but it's worth a look


https://youtu.be/pSPvnFDDQHk

Stop dumping links here please.

Help!!!!

rachb wrote: »

Don't know if it's been posted before but it's worth a look


https://youtu.be/pSPvnFDDQHk

Just watched that very informative thanks for sharing

CMOTDibbler

Help!!!! wrote: »

If you read the posts you will see we were talking about the west not just Ireland
Well we dont know if its controlled just yet, will you be happy if the next group are grown men with beards instead of women & children that we were told we were going to get

Is it the beards you have a problem with? You've mentioned it twice now and it's starting to worry me.

What is it we should worry about beards?

Ulysses Gaze

rachb wrote: »

Don't know if it's been posted before but it's worth a look


https://youtu.be/pSPvnFDDQHk

Thanks for posting. Very informative.

CalamariFritti

Just to make bit light of it amongst all this serious talk.

I find beards very worrying. Horrible fashion trend. Every second fella under 30 seems to have one these days.

rachb

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Stop dumping links here please.

Sorry?? It's a video of a Muslim woman sharing her views about her religion Islam. Is that not what this thread is about? Being able to express views on Islam without being politically corrected or being labelled racist by leftists because that is what the video is trying to explain.

oscarBravo

Help!!!! wrote: »

If you read the posts you will see we were talking about the west not just Ireland

OK. How many Muslims moved to the west last year? How many non-Muslims?

Well we dont know if its controlled just yet...

Of course it's controlled. Try to migrate to a western country of your choice without following the relevant procedures, and let me know how you get on.