Are the left being brainwashed by Islam?? - Mod warning in OP

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 11:01AM

jay1988 wrote: »

Jesus that's some twisting of a post right there.

Have you been waiting long to be offended today?

Its ok I wasnt offended by him/her trying to twist the post

Nody · 31-01-2017 11:04AM

Help!!!! wrote: »

In fairness it was part of his election campaign so maybe he should be applauded for actually doing the things that got him voted in. Anyway can we leave the travel ban to other threads & get back to the title of the thread

Except making America great again, making America safe again and bringing the jobs back to America. But I guess those promises really did not matter a whole lot.

Walter H Price · 31-01-2017 11:06AM

Nody wrote: »

Except making America great again, making America safe again and bringing the jobs back to America. But I guess those promises really did not matter a whole lot.

He's not even in office 2 weeks , relax like ... at least give him the 4 years before trying to judge whether he's broken all his election promises.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 11:06AM

Nody wrote: »

Except making America great again, making America safe again and bringing the jobs back to America. But I guess those promises really did not matter a whole lot.

Jeez one step at a time he's only been in the job a week. Its funny how people seem to think the problems with America only started with Trump

Permabear · 31-01-2017 11:13AM

This post has been deleted.

CMOTDibbler · 31-01-2017 11:19AM

Walter H Price wrote: »

My understanding from the title of this thread was that it would be a discussion on why western liberals show support for Islam , not another thread on the travel ban , perhaps i was mistaken.

It has been determined there is strong anti american sentiment in all of the countries affected by the travel ban , it has already been identified by the previous administration with American citizens being advised not to travel to theses ares , in that light surely it makes sense to restrict travel into the states from these countries.

In addition ISIS have openly said they will send jihadis to the west disguised as refugees , this has already been proven to be happening and terrorist attacks have been carried out in Europe, we live in uncertain times i see Trumps restrictions as far more an appropriate solution for protecting the people who elected him then Merkel or Holland's open door policy's which have lead to crime and terrorism in their respective countries.

You started your post comparing the ban to one on right-wing Christians. I just pointed out that religion has nothing to do with it. Which I see now that you've acknowledged.

Walter H Price · 31-01-2017 11:32AM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

You started your post comparing the ban to one on right-wing Christians. I just pointed out that religion has nothing to do with it. Which I see now that you've acknowledged.

i understand , why i was trying to say was why the massive gulf in how western liberals view devout Catholics vs devout Muslims ? i'm an athiest so have very little vested interest , i think both are regressive doctrines that are way out of touch with a modern western lifestyle , both are discriminatory , intolerant and backwards in their thinking and teaching.

why do socially left Europeans ridicule and clash so regularly with devout followers of one faith but not the other , when the other is if anything just a more extream version of the same base ideology and value system ?

I was recently called Islamophobic by an incredibly liberal friend of ours who's gay, i was a little bemused to be honest given how negative he is twords the catholic church and devout Catholics (perfectly understandable in view given their position on his sexual orientation ) but surly Islam and devout Muslims have just if not a more negative and regressive view on homosexuality , so why defend their faith ?

Nody · 31-01-2017 11:39AM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Jeez one step at a time he's only been in the job a week. Its funny how people seem to think the problems with America only started with Trump

He can be there for four years but you can already predict the outcome now.

America great again? Well seeing the protests nationally and the world view clearly this is not the case.

America safe again? Once again ISIS has declared Trump's ban the best thing since the 2003 invasion of Iraq for recruiting more people and that by extension means more attacks. Add in the general hostility by Trump, the fact he fires most of the experts on Council of National Defense and puts on there a complete incompetent racist without experience will only increase the death toll of Americans and this is before we move into the war with China (yes China has declared that war with USA looks inevitable; so much for Trump being the choice for peace and instead of possibly fighting an ex power house with allies Trump is taking on the new powerhouse alone).

Bringing jobs back to America - Pulling out of the TTP China will now step in instead; do you think China will promote fair and honest competition or do you think they will skew it in their favour? This will reduce USAs competitiveness world wide and in the USA due to cheaper imports due to significantly lowered standards. USA can not compete on having lower standards than China simply because it does not have the population or mentality to do so and USA have now given free reign to China to write the rules. Trump tries to play mercantilism except it has been tried, and failed, for hundreds of years consistently. All it does is set up more job losses, lower standards and less competitiveness of the American economy which will not affect Trump and the like but the workers on the ground sure will feel the pinch.

BoJack Horseman · 31-01-2017 11:43AM

Help!!!! wrote: »

As the title says are the left being brainwashed by Islam??

No....
The Left knows fully what islamism & jihadism offer.

Their alliance is merely strategic & will probably only last as long as they both have the common enemy of liberal capitalist democracies to fight.

Asian/African states that are somewhat-socialist don't have any fondness for islamism knowing that they are vying with each other for dominance.

I see the lefts alliance with Islamism as a marriage of convenience.
They know that if they could the islamists would dispatch the left just as enthusiastically.

CMOTDibbler · 31-01-2017 11:46AM

Walter H Price wrote: »

i understand , why i was trying to say was why the massive gulf in how western liberals view devout Catholics vs devout Muslims ? i'm an athiest so have very little vested interest , i think both are regressive doctrines that are way out of touch with a modern western lifestyle , both are discriminatory , intolerant and backwards in their thinking and teaching.

why do socially left Europeans ridicule and clash so regularly with devout followers of one faith but not the other , when the other is if anything just a more extream version of the same base ideology and value system ?

I was recently called Islamophobic by an incredibly liberal friend of ours who's gay, i was a little bemused to be honest given how negative he is twords the catholic church and devout Catholics (perfectly understandable in view given their position on his sexual orientation ) but surly Islam and devout Muslims have just if not a more negative and regressive view on homosexuality , so why defend their faith ?

I suspect that it's the general versus the particular.

The general discourse is that all Muslims are bad and there's no difference between a moderate Muslim and a jihadist. Or if there is, it's not worth the trouble to work out which is which. Shades of "Kill them all, God will know his own".

The other side of the coin allows for a distinction between a Christian and a fundamentalist Christian. The negative feeling your friend has towards the Catholic Church is one based on his own experience. Always difficult to get people to step back from the subjective and be objective in those circumstances. On the other hand, he may not like the Catholic Church's teachings, but does he fear and/or hate all Catholics as a result?

Nody · 31-01-2017 11:53AM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The other side of the coin allows for a distinction between a Christian and a fundamentalist Christian. The negative feeling your friend has towards the Catholic Church is one based on his own experience. Always difficult to get people to step back from the subjective and be objective in those circumstances. On the other hand, he may not like the Catholic Church's teachings, but does he fear and/or hate all Catholics as a result?

My wife would fall in a similar category I'd suspect; she grew up being heavily involved in the Catholic Church to the point of considering becoming a nun; once she realized her doubts actually had real cause that could not be answered ("It's faith"; "Don't question the wisdom of the bible") she switched and will have a hissy fit over the Church and it's teachings due to personal experience but would not hate individuals. She may think they are stupid to believe in it but she'd not hate them for doing so where as she definitely hates the church.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 11:57AM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I suspect that it's the general versus the particular.

The general discourse is that all Muslims are bad and there's no difference between a moderate Muslim and a jihadist. Or if there is, it's not worth the trouble to work out which is which. Shades of "Kill them all, God will know his own".

50% of Muslims in the UK feel that homosexuality should be illegal & their supposed to be more moderate. Go walk around East London near the mosques & you will see the Sharia Law patrols stopping non Muslims & telling them its a Muslim area

Nody · 31-01-2017 12:00PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

50% of Muslims in the UK feel that homosexuality should be illegal & their supposed to be more moderate. Go walk around East London near the mosques & you will see the Sharia Law patrols stopping non Muslims & telling them its a Muslim area

And the Republican party went to election on the banning of abortions in 2016 and lets not even go into the question of marriage rights so that's throwing stone in a glass house if anything.

Walter H Price · 31-01-2017 12:01PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I suspect that it's the general versus the particular.

The general discourse is that all Muslims are bad and there's no difference between a moderate Muslim and a jihadist. Or if there is, it's not worth the trouble to work out which is which. Shades of "Kill them all, God will know his own".

The other side of the coin allows for a distinction between a Christian and a fundamentalist Christian. The negative feeling your friend has towards the Catholic Church is one based on his own experience. Always difficult to get people to step back from the subjective and be objective in those circumstances. On the other hand, he may not like the Catholic Church's teachings, but does he fear and/or hate all Catholics as a result?

i would say he has an incredibly adverserial relationship with those who subscribe to the teachings of ther church , he would perceive that they were the ones who voted against gay marraige etc , very hard to get through to him though there isnt a single majority muslim country where gay marriage is legal , and that in many it is still a crime in some punishable by death.

I have yet to met a moderate Muslim those i have met seem to fall into one of two catagorys either totaly lapsed , effectively atheist or apostates who have moved to the west and are no longer into the fairy stories , mosque etc... one girl i met in my masters class was actually grated asylum here after she became left Islam her application was accepted as her life would have been in danger had she returned to Saudi Arabia , the others are devout they go to mosque they believe women are second class , homosexuality is a crime etc ... there doesn't seem to be much of cutural Muslim thing like we have cultural Catholics here its either your in or your out. I support Villa and spend a good bit of time in Bermingham met allot there , you would think normal lads if your talking to them about football, but they have shocking views of women and would be very openly homophobic etc ...

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 12:08PM

Nody wrote: »

And the Republican party went to election on the banning of abortions in 2016 and lets not even go into the question of marriage rights so that's throwing stone in a glass house if anything.

Well right back at you....same things with Muslims. Look I've had my experiences with Muslims, have had a good laugh with some, some I would call mates but there's that little niggling feeling I get when they talk about religion or women. I've seen plenty of examples of women being abused by Muslim men on buses or on the street.

CMOTDibbler · 31-01-2017 12:09PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

50% of Muslims in the UK feel that homosexuality should be illegal & their supposed to be more moderate. Go walk around East London near the mosques & you will see the Sharia Law patrols stopping non Muslims & telling them its a Muslim area

It's not so long ago that we thought the same thing. And had laws to enforce it. Twenty-three years ago to be exact.

I don't know why you bring up these 'Sharia Law' patrols when discussing moderate Islam. I could equally bring up the Britain First 'Christian patrols'. All are illegal and have been stopped by police.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 12:13PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

It's not so long ago that we thought the same thing. And had laws to enforce it. Twenty-three years ago to be exact.

I don't know why you bring up these 'Sharia Law' patrols when discussing moderate Islam. I could equally bring up the Britain First 'Christian patrols'. All are illegal and have been stopped by police.

Because in my experience there is no moderate Muslim. Talk out of turn about Islam or Mohammed & you will see them change. There is no debating with them.

Mehapoy · 31-01-2017 12:14PM

I think many in the 'progressive' left are so consumed with identity politics and victimhood their ideological prism just does not allow them to see all Muslims as anything but victims, hence the 'ride with me' mentality, rushing to ordinary muslims aid against imagined oppression when islamists attack, and excusing the attacks as payback for western intervention. Its a similar mentality that says women can't be sexist or black people(or people of colour) can't be racist. They just cannot countenance criticism of any aspect of Islam as they regard Muslims as the apex of the victimhood identity politics.

Walter H Price · 31-01-2017 12:14PM

Nody wrote: »

And the Republican party went to election on the banning of abortions in 2016 and lets not even go into the question of marriage rights so that's throwing stone in a glass house if anything.

but there is no confusion with why anyone who is socially liberal takes issue with the Republicans , i would struggle with most of their christian influenced BS too to be honest, though acknowledge they have to somewhat play up to that to get elected. The same with ridiculing the catholic church and having a a somewhat adversarial relationship with devout christians , it makes sense as their views and values are vastly different.

The confusion is why with why they support and defend devout Muslims and Islam when their views are just as opposed and regressive to liberal values as the Reopulican christian right and the Christian churches ?

Walter H Price · 31-01-2017 12:15PM

Nody wrote: »

And the Republican party went to election on the banning of abortions in 2016 and lets not even go into the question of marriage rights so that's throwing stone in a glass house if anything.

but there is no confusion with why anyone who is socially liberal takes issue with the Republicans , i would struggle with most of their christian influenced BS too to be honest, though acknowledge they have to somewhat play up to that to get elected. The same with ridiculing the catholic church and having a a somewhat adversarial relationship with devout christians , it makes sense as their views and values are vastly different.

The confusion is why with why they support and defend devout Muslims and Islam when their views are just as opposed and regressive to liberal values as the Repulican christian right and the Christian churches ?

Nody · 31-01-2017 12:16PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Well right back at you....same things with Muslims. Look I've had my experiences with Muslims, have had a good laugh with some, some I would call mates but there's that little niggling feeling I get when they talk about religion or women. I've seen plenty of examples of women being abused by Muslim men on buses or on the street.

I'm not a Muslim (Christian since birth I'm afraid) nor the one claiming that Muslims somehow are unique in their view. If you want to try to paint Muslims as being bad you need to take a step back and realize that the Republican party stands for just as backwards views as well. I don't agree with either party and as far as I'm concerned you should be allowed to marry as two consenting adults in any combination you want from a legal perspective (the venue of marriage can be a separate topic as I can understand why a religion let's say Catholics would not want people to have a Satantic marriage in their church for example). I'd support various poly forms as well but that would raise some legal questions to be ironed out first.

CMOTDibbler · 31-01-2017 12:17PM

Walter H Price wrote: »

I have yet to met a moderate Muslim those i have met seem to fall into one of two catagorys either totaly lapsed , effectively atheist or apostates who have moved to the west and are no longer into the fairy stories , mosque etc... one girl i met in my masters class was actually grated asylum here after she became left Islam her application was accepted as her life would have been in danger had she returned to Saudi Arabia , the others are devout they go to mosque they believe women are second class , homosexuality is a crime etc ... there doesn't seem to be much of cutural Muslim thing like we have cultural Catholics here its either your in or your out. I support Villa and spend a good bit of time in Bermingham met allot there , you would think normal lads if your talking to them about football, but they have shocking views of women and would be very openly homophobic etc ...

The difference in my mind is that a moderate would not try to impose their beliefs on others who don't share their faith.

I don't agree with their views on women and homosexuality, but unfortunately, they're not the only people who hold those beliefs.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 12:19PM

Nody wrote: »

I'm not a Muslim (Christian since birth I'm afraid) nor the one claiming that Muslims somehow are unique in their view. If you want to try to paint Muslims as being bad you need to take a step back and realize that the Republican party stands for just as backwards views as well. I don't agree with either party and as far as I'm concerned you should be allowed to marry as two consenting adults in any combination you want. I'd support various poly forms as well but that would raise some legal questions to be ironed out first.

Not calling you Muslim just saying the same thing you say about republicans you can say about Muslims. Yes they both have backwards views but the republicans are not going to stone you for not agreeing with theirs. The problem is that the more Muslims come to the west the more the left are going to bend over backwards to accommodate them

Walter H Price · 31-01-2017 12:25PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The difference in my mind is that a moderate would not try to impose their beliefs on others who don't share their faith.

I don't agree with their views on women and homosexuality, but unfortunately, they're not the only people who hold those beliefs.

i somewhat agree i think to hold views such as women are responsible for being raped and that gays should be in prision is fairly removed from being a moderate , the "moderate" cultural catholics would be people that believe in evolution and would still be critiacal of the churchs handling of child abuse , they wouldnt support the likes of the Iona institue etc but maybe feel the church is part of their cultural identity. i dont find much of that with any of the Muslims i've met , they very much take the teachings of the Koran to 100% true and do hold view i would be very uncomfortable with , perticularly the men.

In college we had a Muslim soc they wanted drinking in the SU banned , Hala in the canteen and even sought an appropriate dress code for girls , yet when they were challenged they just cried racism and islamophobia ... they in no way supported Jihad or terrorism but they were far from moderate in my view

CMOTDibbler · 31-01-2017 12:25PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

Not calling you Muslim just saying the same thing you say about republicans you can say about Muslims. Yes they both have backwards views but the republicans are not going to stone you for not agreeing with theirs. The problem is that the more Muslims come to the west the more the left are going to bend over backwards to accommodate them

I think you're confusing the general with the particular. Without using labels, people are protesting the blanket assumption that 'all Muslims are bad' in the same way that they'd protest fundamentalist Christians saying that 'all gays are bad'.

There's no paradox there. I doubt you'd find any of these protesters saying that it would be ok to let a jihadist terror cell into the country. It's about proportionate responses rather than knee-jerk ones.

amcalester · 31-01-2017 12:26PM

Help!!!! wrote: »

50% of Muslims in the UK feel that homosexuality should be illegal & their supposed to be more moderate. Go walk around East London near the mosques & you will see the Sharia Law patrols stopping non Muslims & telling them its a Muslim area

I lived and worked in East London and never experienced any of this, not saying it doesn't happen but can you provide a link to show it does?

CMOTDibbler · 31-01-2017 12:28PM

amcalester wrote: »

I lived and worked in East London and never experienced any of this, not saying it doesn't happen but can you provide a link to show it does?

It has happened alright. A quick Google would provide some links. It was stamped out pdq though.

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 12:36PM

amcalester wrote: »

I lived and worked in East London and never experienced any of this, not saying it doesn't happen but can you provide a link to show it does?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ePY25UPJWs

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 12:42PM

Good to see the Germans being consistent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHBkkPMMEDo

Help!!!! · 31-01-2017 12:42PM

Good to see the Germans being consistent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHBkkPMMEDo

Are the left being brainwashed by Islam?? - Mod warning in OP

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