CIE Union Fanatics/Extremists?

nice_guy80 · 28-01-2017 01:50PM

Customers are an inconvenience to all CIE companies and employees

nice_guy80 · 28-01-2017 01:53PM

jameorahiely wrote: »

There's 1.2 million people with free travel passes (not including spouses/companion)

There's approximately 540,000 people over the age of 65 im ireland.

They're only half the problem.

They are a lot of the problem

My parents have a car and are well able to afford bus and rail fares
Yet they both have free travel passes and use them very regularly

They should have to contribute to the cost of the free travel scheme
Along with all the others using the scheme very regularly

ancapailldorcha · 28-01-2017 02:26PM

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

That's only a meaningless statement.

How so? Are you saying that this technology doesn't exist or isn't in development?

Permabear · 28-01-2017 02:37PM

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Permabear · 28-01-2017 02:41PM

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ClovenHoof · 28-01-2017 02:47PM

Galway_Old_Man wrote: »

I'd probably have some sympathy for the CIE people if it weren't for me actually having to deal with them for the guts of two years, and knowing what they're like.

Yes they are insane racketeering scum. They are already putting out there that "the lads" won't be stopping Sligo trains at Broombridge to connect with the new Luas service.

newacc2015 · 28-01-2017 02:59PM

stimpson wrote: »

The fares are so high because the wages are so high.

The wages are significantly higher than private companies.

IMO the real reason why fares are so high is free travel passes result in BE getting a nominal payments for the millions of journeys that are FTP users take on their buses each year. Instead of BE getting a decent fare from an FTP users, they get a nominal fee from the state each year.

So you have a problem where a huge amount of riders are resulting in BE getting a nominal fee and the paying customers are subsiding the FTP with their fares.

There can't be a rational discussion on FTP. You hear about all the taxes, FTP users paid and how they live in poverty on par with a Moldavian. With FTP they couldn't get to the near daily hospital appointments they seem to have etc.

The subsidy for FTP users is BS and the state is going to accept that. Fares are only going to get higher as more and more people are eligible for FTP and there will be less and less paying customers

suicide_circus · 28-01-2017 04:20PM

newacc2015 wrote: »

The wages are significantly higher than private companies.

IMO the real reason why fares are so high is free travel passes result in BE getting a nominal payments for the millions of journeys that are FTP users take on their buses each year. Instead of BE getting a decent fare from an FTP users, they get a nominal fee from the state each year.

So you have a problem where a huge amount of riders are resulting in BE getting a nominal fee and the paying customers are subsiding the FTP with their fares.

There can't be a rational discussion on FTP. You hear about all the taxes, FTP users paid and how they live in poverty on par with a Moldavian. With FTP they couldn't get to the near daily hospital appointments they seem to have etc.

The subsidy for FTP users is BS and the state is going to accept that. Fares are only going to get higher as more and more people are eligible for FTP and there will be less and less paying customers

With an aging population it's a totally unsustainable model. Somethings gonna have to give. High paid drivers on a service a huge amount of people use for free. DOES NOT CCOMPUTE.

C. Montgomery Gurns · 28-01-2017 09:22PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Because driverless cars are on the way. It's only a matter of time.

Ah driverless cars. Brought to you by the type of people who sold people fool proof shares in Eircom and convinced major firms that they needed to spend thousands on preventative measures against the Millennium Bug.

2021 is the date they are giving. I would be surprised to see them a reality by 3021. Not only is no technology foolproof, but there are too many vested interests in maintaining the status quo (no insurance company in their right mind would insure these things for a start. Technology that apparently can't crash means the end of the insurance trade. Add in the anarchy anyone working in the transport trade would bring to prevent its introduction, the idea that a driverless bus could somehow spin around West Dublin without being vandalised beyond use, it is an utter nonsensical pipe dream. The vast majority of fixed rail transport is not automated yet clowns are investing their money in driverless road vehicles. It beggars belief. At the very most it may get a go in rural backwaters and save the pub industry. In an urban area? Not a hope.

stimpson · 28-01-2017 09:33PM

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

Ah driverless cars. Brought to you by the type of people who sold people fool proof shares in Eircom and convinced major firms that they needed to spend thousands on preventative measures against the Millennium Bug.

Nope. Brought to you by the people who invented PayPal and SpaceX. The Tesla Model S already has semi-autonomous mode but is equipped with the hardware to enable fully autonomous mode, which is due with a software update this year. As for foolproof, the semi autonomous mode was responsible for a reduction in Model S accidents of 40%. Not foolproof, but better than a human already.

And major firms did need to spend billions on the millennium bug. The fact that there was limited disruption was because of this effort, not in spite of it.

For Forks Sake · 28-01-2017 11:45PM

Brian? wrote: »

The problem is not Bus Eireann losing money. The problem is the expectation that an essential public service should be profitable.

11m is a drop in the ocean for the Irish government budget. It's a public service, I'm not saying throw money at it but let's stop prentending it's a company that's supposed to make money. Any private bus company would simply drop any non profitable route. Is that what we want?

The Expressway part of BE is what is dragging it down, that is not an essential service, as shown by the fact that BE are getting their arses handed to them on the major intercity routes by more efficient private operators. The local routes and school transport are state subsidised and are genuine public services.

Also, it takes a particularly special type of group to lodge a pay claim on a company heading for insolvency #unionlogic :rolleyes:

darkpagandeath · 29-01-2017 12:01AM

Company fast on the way to insolvency. Job looses or pay cuts 2 options. Dole or a job.

KingBrian2 · 29-01-2017 12:02AM

The simple solution would be let it go bankrupt and that would allow the company to sack all the employees and start from scratch. That is not feasible as the public would get outraged and too many good public servants would lose their livelihoods. Just like what happened with Cleary's. What is needed is some sort of a business plan get investors in with expertise who can turn companies around. Reduce inefficiencies and provide better incentive rather than just throwing money at every problem.

end of the road · 29-01-2017 12:09AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Everyone has money woes and you're just picking a red herring to have a go at. What about the €1 billion spent on Irish each year? A lot more than is being spent on Calais, that's for sure.

In any case, the only reason they're getting special handouts is because they're working in a monopoly. Many of us don't have that luxury so why should they?

they don't get special handouts.
in general terms, one being unable to get isn't a reason for another not to get, in life people have to meet certain criteria to receive something.

Galway_Old_Man wrote: »

I'd probably have some sympathy for the CIE people if it weren't for me actually having to deal with them for the guts of two years, and knowing what they're like.

except you don't know what they are like. you only know what a small few are like because you only have dealt with a small few out of a couple of thousand employees.

suicide_circus wrote: »

I heard some talking head on the radio saying that if everyone on a free travel pass paid €6 per year...PER YEAR, that the hole in bus eireanns finances would be filled. 6 f*cking Euro. 11 Cent per week for unlimited public transport. And yet this idea wont even be given any discussion lest the sacred cows with their endless advocacy groups start screeching about elderly people freeze to death in their homes.

it won't be discussed because it would likely cost more to admin the whole thing then it would bring in

stimpson wrote: »

The fares are so high because the wages are so high. They pay staff an average of €48,819. About 20% higher than private operators. Not to mention the tasty pensions.

It's driving a bus ffs. It's not rocket science.

it doesn't matter whether it is rocket science or not, the pay reflects the responsibility of the job. and remember, average isn't the actual wage of each employee. bus eireann have quite a lot of employees.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The problem is that they are grossly overpaid. Because the mistake of overpaying them was madebin the past and in the main a legacy of the inefficiency and uneconomic wages, benefits, and overtime, of its days as a public service gravy bus is no reason to perpetuate that mistake. Their pay must be reduced to levels in line with the market rate for driving a vehicle around. Rather than whine about the pain of the impending pay correction, the staff should be thankful they got away with being overpaid for so long, and get on with readjusting their personal finances.

they aren't overpaid. their pay is all ready at the market rate.

stimpson · 29-01-2017 12:16AM

end of the road wrote: »

it doesn't matter whether it is rocket science or not, the pay reflects the responsibility of the job. and remember, average isn't the actual wage of each employee. bus eireann have quite a lot of employees.

Except it doesn't. Bus drivers for private companies get paid 25% less, yet have the same responsibility. I understand how averages work. I'm sure they have many employees on more than the average too.

end of the road · 29-01-2017 12:24AM

boombang wrote: »

We have to open our eyes that there are other suppliers willing and able to provide the same services for less (when then can access the public service subvention for uneconomic routes).

we don't as there aren't other suppliers able and willing to provide the same services for less on the subsidized routes because they aren't going to make money on them. the subsidy would have to be increased so they can make a profit for their shareholders as they are entitled to do.

boombang wrote: »

This means that the tax payer is oblidged to prop up special deals to privaleged workers.

it doesn't. such isn't happening.

boombang wrote: »

Can you imagine your disgust if Enda Kenny forced you to do your weekly food shopping at an expensive convenience store when you could get everything for less at the cheaper supermarket next door.

irrelevant as public subsidized transport is as far from supermarkets and other businesses as it gets.

nice_guy80 wrote: »

They are a lot of the problem

My parents have a car and are well able to afford bus and rail fares
Yet they both have free travel passes and use them very regularly

They should have to contribute to the cost of the free travel scheme
Along with all the others using the scheme very regularly

they shouldn't have to. if they are entitled to free travel then they get free travel.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Yes they are insane racketeering scum. They are already putting out there that "the lads" won't be stopping Sligo trains at Broombridge to connect with the new Luas service.

because they're are no plans to stop the trains there. should they have lied? personally i think on the basis of public safety it's the correct decisian not to stop at broombridge for the protection of the passengers onboard those trains from what is a hugely known hazard.

end of the road · 29-01-2017 12:30AM

stimpson wrote: »

Except it doesn't. Bus drivers for private companies get paid 25% less, yet have the same responsibility.

drivers for private operators don't get 25% less. unless it's a very small local operator. it's about between 5 and 10%. + the private operators may offer other terms in replacement for the pay.

stimpson wrote: »

I understand how averages work. I'm sure they have many employees on more than the average too.

only management grades would be on the average or a bit more. everyone else isn't on anything near the average.

stimpson · 29-01-2017 12:35AM

end of the road wrote: »

drivers for private operators don't get 25% less. unless it's a very small local operator. it's about between 5 and 10%. + the private operators may offer other terms in replacement for the pay.

State company pays average of €48,819 while rivals pay between €30,000 and €39,000

Source

only management grades would be on the average or a bit more. everyone else isn't on anything near the average.

Yeah. You haven't a clue how averages work.

Atlantic Dawn · 29-01-2017 12:36AM

Why do Unite and NBRU not publish the fees to be a member of their union?

suicide_circus · 29-01-2017 12:44AM

end of the road wrote: »

they don't get special handouts.
in general terms, one being unable to get isn't a reason for another not to get, in life people have to meet certain criteria to receive something.

except you don't know what they are like. you only know what a small few are like because you only have dealt with a small few out of a couple of thousand employees.

it won't be discussed because it would likely cost more to admin the whole thing then it would bring in

it doesn't matter whether it is rocket science or not, the pay reflects the responsibility of the job. and remember, average isn't the actual wage of each employee. bus eireann have quite a lot of employees.

they aren't overpaid. their pay is all ready at the market rate.

What's your solution?

darkpagandeath · 29-01-2017 12:46AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

What's your solution?

Bankrupt the company and give pay rise. Or tax payer hit.I wager.

pablo128 · 29-01-2017 12:49AM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The simple solution would be let it go bankrupt and that would allow the company to sack all the employees and start from scratch. That is not feasible as the public would get outraged and too many good public servants would lose their livelihoods. Just like what happened with Cleary's. What is needed is some sort of a business plan get investors in with expertise who can turn companies around. Reduce inefficiencies and provide better incentive rather than just throwing money at every problem.

This is what the company are trying to do.

The Unions are throwing a fit about it.

boombang · 29-01-2017 12:51AM

end of the road wrote: »

irrelevant as public subsidized transport is as far from supermarkets and other businesses as it gets.

What's not relevant about the analogy of the government forcing the public to pay more for a good or service from certain providers that others are willing to provide for less? Sure supermarkets and bus travel are different, but what's wrong with the analogy?

end of the road · 29-01-2017 12:51AM

stimpson wrote: »

State company pays average of €48,819 while rivals pay between €30,000 and €39,000

Source

Yeah. You haven't a clue how averages work.

it's meaningless as bus eireann is a big company with a couple of thousand employees where as the privates are smaller.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Bankrupt the company and give pay rise. Or tax payer hit.I wager.

you would be incorrect.

boombang wrote: »

What's not relevant about the analogy of the government forcing the public to pay more for a good or service from certain providers that others are willing to provide for less? Sure supermarkets and bus travel are different, but what's wrong with the analogy?

they're aren't others willing to provide for less on the subsidized routes, which will be the majority routes to suffer if bus eireann did go to the wall, as they can't afford to do so and make a profit.

darkpagandeath · 29-01-2017 12:57AM

end of the road wrote: »

it's meaningless as bus eireann is a big company with a couple of thousand employees where as the privates are smaller.

you would be incorrect.

They lay our the plan.

C. Montgomery Gurns · 29-01-2017 01:14AM

stimpson wrote: »

Except it doesn't. Bus drivers for private companies get paid 25% less, yet have the same responsibility. I understand how averages work. I'm sure they have many employees on more than the average too.

In fairness I would imagine Bus Eireann drivers are more likely to have to work very anti social shifts. Some of the private commuter services in and out of Dublin operate on a one in the morning return in the evening model and never work public holidays (I assume the driver just hangs around town all day), many CIE services clock off around midnight, some are near on 24/7.

stimpson · 29-01-2017 01:18AM

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

In fairness I would imagine Bus Eireann drivers are more likely to have to work very anti social shifts. Some of the private commuter services in and out of Dublin operate on a one in the morning return in the evening model and never work public holidays (I assume the driver just hangs around town all day), many CIE services clock off around midnight, some are near on 24/7.

And the last aircoach leaves at 3:25 in the morning.

http://www.aircoach.ie/timetables

29-01-2017 01:28AM

If 50k is supposedly a ridiculously high salary for a mere unskilled worker/bus driver, I look forward to all the rightwing armchair warriors finding a house for their family in Dublin for 3.5 times that: €175k.

All 40 houses today in Dublin under €175k. What, pray tell, is the point in working when all you can afford is an ex-council house in woeful condition in a supercrap part of the city? Don't work, and the state will eventually give you a choice of houses for a minimal rent per month.No incentive.

If Irish workers were not held to ransom by successive Irish governments unashamedly in cahoots with CIF/Irish developers/housebuilders/financial institutions to screw Irish workers (by refusing to tackle supply) until house puchasers have bailed all the aforementioned "capitalist" parasites out from all their losses, then it might be fair to pay a bus driver €35k or the like.

Sort out the real scandal of property prices in this city and these supposedly high salaries will decrease. Typical of some, however, to blame Irish workers and ignore the massive collective screwing going on of ordinary workers by the financial and construction industries that are too important for the Irish government to allow to fail.

C. Montgomery Gurns · 29-01-2017 01:35AM

Deleted User wrote: »

If 50k is supposedly a ridiculously high salary for a mere unskilled worker/bus driver, I look forward to all the rightwing armchair warriors finding a house for their family in Dublin for 3.5 times that: €175k.

All 40 houses today in Dublin under €175k. What, pray tell, is the point in working when all you can afford is an ex-council house in woeful condition in a supercrap part of the city? Don't work, and the state will eventually give you a choice of houses for a minimal rent per month.No incentive.

.

In fairness 12 of those are private builds in middle class areas.

I do think 50,000 is too high for a bus driver, but let's be honest, the lads on that are the exception to the rule. For whatever reason, from my experience on both CIE and Dublin Bus it seems pretty rare to see a driver who appears younger than 35- I imagine they must prefer applicants with a very long clean driving history. From memory most of them start on around the 29K mark at the minute. If someone in their mid 30's has just secured a 30 year mortgage at, say, 800 a month, and tomorrow they are told they're getting dropped down to close on 26K, that is not right nor fair.

suicide_circus · 29-01-2017 01:39AM

end of the road wrote: »

it's meaningless as bus eireann is a big company with a couple of thousand employees where as the privates are smaller.

you would be incorrect.

they're aren't others willing to provide for less on the subsidized routes, which will be the majority routes to suffer if bus eireann did go to the wall, as they can't afford to do so and make a profit.

So what's your solution? You're opposed to the workers reducing their Ts and Cs. Youre opposed to to FTPs being asked to contribute. Go on then.

CIE Union Fanatics/Extremists?

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