CIE Union Fanatics/Extremists?

ClovenHoof

What kind of union takes a reasonable and rational attempt to save a company from bankruptcy, save numerous jobs and keep rual bus services an "an act of war".

Why can't we have proper public transport instead of these loons.

C. Montgomery Gurns

ClovenHoof wrote: »

What kind of union takes a reasonable and rational attempt to save a company from bankruptcy, save numerous jobs and keep rual bus services an "an act of war".

Why can't we have proper public transport instead of these loons.

The real question is where can Katharine Zappone find 11 million euro when the government can't find 9 million to prop up an essential public service,

I'm not saying that we should throw money at Bus Eireann indefinitely, We shouldn't. But the fact is these bus drivers have families, they have mortgages, they were hired at a certain rate, they were gifted pay rises accordingly, and they planned their outgoings around having that set figure. Bus Eireann should be bailed out until such time financial prudence has been put in place that doesn't effect the rank and file staff nor the customers. For example, the Expressway coaches are nice and comfy and all but why is a loss making company splashing out so much money on brand new buses? Back in the day we used to go on school tours on hire coaches that must have been at least 20 years old, they weren't fancy but they got you from A to B. A Bus Eireann coach or double decker should surely last 20 plus years with regular maintenance yet they seem to buy them like Floyd Mayweather buys cars.

To seize wages off them when the government is prioritising spending on the Calais scam over their income is nothing short of theft.

ancapailldorcha

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

The real question is where can Katharine Zappone find 11 million euro when the government can't find 9 million to prop up an essential public service,

I'm not saying that we should throw money at Bus Eireann indefinitely, We shouldn't. But the fact is these bus drivers have families, they have mortgages, they were hired at a certain rate, they were gifted pay rises accordingly, and they planned their outgoings around having that set figure. To seize it off them when the government is prioritising spending on the Calais scam over their income is nothing short of theft.

Everyone has money woes and you're just picking a red herring to have a go at. What about the €1 billion spent on Irish each year? A lot more than is being spent on Calais, that's for sure.

In any case, the only reason they're getting special handouts is because they're working in a monopoly. Many of us don't have that luxury so why should they?

Brian?

The problem is not Bus Eireann losing money. The problem is the expectation that an essential public service should be profitable.

11m is a drop in the ocean for the Irish government budget. It's a public service, I'm not saying throw money at it but let's stop prentending it's a company that's supposed to make money. Any private bus company would simply drop any non profitable route. Is that what we want?

C. Montgomery Gurns

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Everyone has money woes and you're just picking a red herring to have a go at.

There is plenty of wastage on Irish follys. This case is different- it was never even budgeted for. It is going to be taken out of other budgets. It may even come out of the dept of transport budget.

Galway_Old_Man

I'd probably have some sympathy for the CIE people if it weren't for me actually having to deal with them for the guts of two years, and knowing what they're like.

ancapailldorcha

Galway_Old_Man wrote: »

I'd probably have some sympathy for the CIE people if it weren't for me actually having to deal with them for the guts of two years, and knowing what they're like.

Spent years travelling with them. Seems that the only time they're organised is when they fancy a handout.

suicide_circus

I heard some talking head on the radio saying that if everyone on a free travel pass paid €6 per year...PER YEAR, that the hole in bus eireanns finances would be filled. 6 f*cking Euro. 11 Cent per week for unlimited public transport. And yet this idea wont even be given any discussion lest the sacred cows with their endless advocacy groups start screeching about elderly people freeze to death in their homes.

PMBC

While 6 euros is small its the upping of that amount in future years that would concern me - no I don't have free public transport, yet. Neither am I a Union member. But the point implied by your post could be that this is the shortfall that the government is NOT paying to the bus service for free transport. It may be free to the consumer, but its not free to the provider.

suicide_circus

PMBC wrote: »

While 6 euros is small its the upping of that amount in future years that would concern me - no I don't have free public transport, yet. Neither am I a Union member. But the point implied by your post could be that this is the shortfall that the government is NOT paying to the bus service for free transport. It may be free to the consumer, but its not free to the provider.

When you say "government" you mean tax payer.

Bus Eireann has two main revenue streams;

a. Paying customers
b. Tax payer

We all have to be willing to pay more in tax and more in fares.

It's all well and good saying that public transport should not aim to be profit making but when you add staff on excellent pay and conditions into the mix it simply means that the public need to cough up more to keep staff in the style to which they're accustomed and keep the service going.

C. Montgomery Gurns

suicide_circus wrote: »

When you say "government" you mean tax payer.

Bus Eireann has two main revenue streams;

a. Paying customers
b. Tax payer

We all have to be willing to pay more in tax and more in fares.

It's all well and good saying that public transport should not aim to be profit making but when you add staff on excellent pay and conditions into the mix it simply means that the public need to cough up more to keep staff in the style to which they're accustomed and keep the service going.

The fares are already too high. That's why they are making losses- private operators provide much cheaper services from Dublin to tourist towns than CIE do (Galway, Cork, Belfast etc). Walk down the South Quays any day the place us thronged with tourists hopping on the discount private operators while half empty overpriced buses leave Busaras, often probably filled with travel pass holders. I see now they have ads for cut price Expressway fares all over the TV and net but these are until the end of February- they need a system put in place where they can provide drivers a decent living and keep prices competitive. You know someone is taking the piss when it is cheaper to fly to a city in the UK on Ryanair than it is for a bus trip to Sligo.

boombang

We have to open our eyes that there are other suppliers willing and able to provide the same services for less (when then can access the public service subvention for uneconomic routes). This means that the tax payer is oblidged to prop up special deals to privaleged workers.

Can you imagine your disgust if Enda Kenny forced you to do your weekly food shopping at an expensive convenience store when you could get everything for less at the cheaper supermarket next door.

Many may say that it's nice to look after the pay and conditions of works, but why only those who work for the state sector? If those who claim egalitarian motivation for keeping CIE funded should think about the reality of spreading public spending largese to everybody to compensate for low pay, including private sector workers. That would be fair, but much less affordable for the tax payer.

I just think there's gross hypocracy on the part of those wanting to selectively prop up state sector workers.

stimpson

The fares are so high because the wages are so high. They pay staff an average of €48,819. About 20% higher than private operators. Not to mention the tasty pensions.

It's driving a bus ffs. It's not rocket science.

Mr. Incognito

If the public buses are not supposed to be run at a profit then lower the fares.

Bus Eireann problems.

1. Too expensive fares.
2. Lateness / Absenteeism
3. Irregular services.

Its an easy fix. Run on time. Lower fares. Up customer service.

Customer service comlaint number 1. Unless you ring the bell or salute at the stop like a demented nazi the bus will not stop. This is only in Ireland stuff. In the continent the bus stops. On or off regardless. It waits thirty seconds. It thus runs on time. It doesnt have three 15 buses leapfroging each other at every stop or women banging on doors as the bus drives off.

The Rape of Lucretia

The problem is that they are grossly overpaid. Because the mistake of overpaying them was madebin the past and in the main a legacy of the inefficiency and uneconomic wages, benefits, and overtime, of its days as a public service gravy bus is no reason to perpetuate that mistake. Their pay must be reduced to levels in line with the market rate for driving a vehicle around. Rather than whine about the pain of the impending pay correction, the staff should be thankful they got away with being overpaid for so long, and get on with readjusting their personal finances.

Zebra3

ClovenHoof wrote: »

What kind of union takes a reasonable and rational attempt to save a company from bankruptcy, save numerous jobs and keep rual bus services an "an act of war".

Why can't we have proper public transport instead of these loons.

Trade union looks after members' interests shocker.

Dirty Dingus McGee

The service should be propped up as it is an essential service and everything should be done to get more people to stop needlessly driving their cars into work when they can get the bus instead.

Really the wages of the drivers should be reduced as CIE drivers earn way more than what private bus drivers earn and I have no idea why that should be the case, it's no more difficult to drive a CIE bus than it is to drive a private bus.

Most other people get paid the proper rate for their job and this isn't the case with CIE bus drivers.

boombang

Zebra3 wrote: »

Trade union looks after members' interests shocker.

Sensible point, but I'm amazed by the lack of politicians standing up for the interests of passengers and tax payers. The unions just keep riding the public so hard.

C. Montgomery Gurns

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The problem is that they are grossly overpaid. Because the mistake of overpaying them was madebin the past and in the main a legacy of the inefficiency and uneconomic wages, benefits, and overtime, of its days as a public service gravy bus is no reason to perpetuate that mistake. Their pay must be reduced to levels in line with the market rate for driving a vehicle around. Rather than whine about the pain of the impending pay correction, the staff should be thankful they got away with being overpaid for so long, and get on with readjusting their personal finances.

Are you one of these people who thinks pay should relate to whether you have a degree or something?

Couriers and such can earn as little as 400 euro per week. A person working a public transport role deserves a wage that allows them to get on the property ladder with a partner in our major cities if that is where they live. If the government is unwilling to pay them this they need to put in place a situation where these people have rapid access to social housing.

Every citizen of this country working a job that can't typically be filled by teenagers or students* deserves either a wage that allows them to obtain a mortgage or a local authority home to live in while they save or upskill themselves to a position in which to buy a home.

*: such jobs being food service, shelf stacking etc.

The Rape of Lucretia

boombang wrote: »

Sensible point, but I'm amazed by the lack of politicians standing up for the interests of passengers and tax payers. The unions just keep riding the public so hard.

The politicians are standing upbfor the taxpayers by staying out of it and letting the wage cull happen, avoid the wasteful overpaying of wages, and let a new service emerge from the bloodbath that will be sustainable and give value for money to taxpayers. It is politicians interfering in such matters in the past that has brought it to this breaking point, and the harsh correction that will now play out.

stimpson

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

Every citizen of this country working a job that can't typically be filled by teenagers or students* deserves either a wage that allows them to obtain a mortgage or a local authority home to live in while they save or upskill themselves to a position in which to buy a home.

*: such jobs being food service, shelf stacking etc.

Why should they? Where is the incentive to upskill when you can make good coin and pension driving a bus? You're not living in the real world.

C. Montgomery Gurns

stimpson wrote: »

Why should they? Where is the incentive to upskill when you can make good coin and pension driving a bus? You're not living in the real world.

Why the need to upskill? Bus drivers provide an essential service, who are you to tell them to upskill? It may shock and appall you to learn that a significant percentage of people who hold degrees are incompetent, lazy and of low intelligence.

The Rape of Lucretia

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

Are you one of these people who thinks pay should relate to whether you have a degree or something?

Wha ?
Pay does relate to whether you have a degree or not. In all analyses. The world over. And beyond doubt.

A basic job like driving a bus should be one of the lowest paid jobs in an economy. A step, and a worthwhile step all right to recognise the time put into doing it, but only a step above dole payment.

The Rape of Lucretia

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

Why the need to upskill? Bus drivers provide an essential service, who are you to tell them to upskill? It may shock and appall you to learn that a significant percentage of people who hold degrees are incompetent, lazy and of low intelligence.

Indeed. We need them to do the job. Upskilling everyone creates a lot of problems, and is not the route to follow.
Nevertheless, the pay must be in line with this most basic, almost negligible skill, of driving a bus.

C. Montgomery Gurns

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Wha ?
Pay does relate to whether you have a degree or not. In all analyses. The world over. And beyond doubt.

A basic job like driving a bus should be one of the lowest paid jobs in an economy. A step, and a worthwhile step all right to recognise the time put into doing it, but only a step above dole payment.

I posted something similar the other week. I think some people who took the 3rd level route because the teacher promised them that it would make them economic kings among men are distraught to get to age 30 and realise the best they will ever afford is an ex corpo gaff living beside, quelle shock horror, a bus driver, or a plumber or some other lad who didn't do great in the leaving, if he did it at all. People shouldn't take it out on the working class because they were flogged a ****e degree. There's an awful hint of people thinking the working class are getting ideas above their station just because a bus driver expects to earn a decent wage.

I'm not referring to you specifically, but there's a lot of resentment around about just how much money the dossers in the class were briefly worth for a short time last decade.

ancapailldorcha

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

Why the need to upskill? Bus drivers provide an essential service, who are you to tell them to upskill? It may shock and appall you to learn that a significant percentage of people who hold degrees are incompetent, lazy and of low intelligence.

Because driverless cars are on the way. It's only a matter of time.

stimpson

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

Why the need to upskill?

Because we only need so many bus drivers.

The irony here is that while you think you are championing the working man, it's the actual lower paid working man that will suffer through increased fares and reduced service. The professional worker doesn't have to rely on the bus.

jameorahiely

suicide_circus wrote: »

I heard some talking head on the radio saying that if everyone on a free travel pass paid €6 per year...PER YEAR, that the hole in bus eireanns finances would be filled. 6 f*cking Euro. 11 Cent per week for unlimited public transport. And yet this idea wont even be given any discussion lest the sacred cows with their endless advocacy groups start screeching about elderly people freeze to death in their homes.

There's 1.2 million people with free travel passes (not including spouses/companion)

There's approximately 540,000 people over the age of 65 im ireland.


They're only half the problem.

boombang

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The politicians are standing up for the taxpayers by staying out of it and letting the wage cull happen....

OK, that's one interpretation of what's going on, but:

1. I don't see anybody taking active leadership on calling the unions BS on this.

2. I didn't see any political support for passengers and tax payers during the recent Luas and Dublin bus pay disputes.

Arcade_Tryer

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Everyone has money woes and you're just picking a red herring to have a go at. What about the €1 billion spent on Irish each year? A lot more than is being spent on Calais, that's for sure.

In any case, the only reason they're getting special handouts is because they're working in a monopoly. Many of us don't have that luxury so why should they?

The Irish translations business must stop now at the very least. Ireland could be such a great country if it simply amended its constitution to ensure the separation of both church and Irish from the state.

Arcade_Tryer

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Because driverless cars are on the way. It's only a matter of time.

That's only a meaningless statement.

nice_guy80

Customers are an inconvenience to all CIE companies and employees

nice_guy80

jameorahiely wrote: »

There's 1.2 million people with free travel passes (not including spouses/companion)

There's approximately 540,000 people over the age of 65 im ireland.


They're only half the problem.

They are a lot of the problem

My parents have a car and are well able to afford bus and rail fares
Yet they both have free travel passes and use them very regularly

They should have to contribute to the cost of the free travel scheme
Along with all the others using the scheme very regularly

ancapailldorcha

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

That's only a meaningless statement.

How so? Are you saying that this technology doesn't exist or isn't in development?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ClovenHoof

Galway_Old_Man wrote: »

I'd probably have some sympathy for the CIE people if it weren't for me actually having to deal with them for the guts of two years, and knowing what they're like.

Yes they are insane racketeering scum. They are already putting out there that "the lads" won't be stopping Sligo trains at Broombridge to connect with the new Luas service.

newacc2015

stimpson wrote: »

The fares are so high because the wages are so high.

The wages are significantly higher than private companies.

IMO the real reason why fares are so high is free travel passes result in BE getting a nominal payments for the millions of journeys that are FTP users take on their buses each year. Instead of BE getting a decent fare from an FTP users, they get a nominal fee from the state each year.

So you have a problem where a huge amount of riders are resulting in BE getting a nominal fee and the paying customers are subsiding the FTP with their fares.

There can't be a rational discussion on FTP. You hear about all the taxes, FTP users paid and how they live in poverty on par with a Moldavian. With FTP they couldn't get to the near daily hospital appointments they seem to have etc.

The subsidy for FTP users is BS and the state is going to accept that. Fares are only going to get higher as more and more people are eligible for FTP and there will be less and less paying customers

suicide_circus

newacc2015 wrote: »

The wages are significantly higher than private companies.

IMO the real reason why fares are so high is free travel passes result in BE getting a nominal payments for the millions of journeys that are FTP users take on their buses each year. Instead of BE getting a decent fare from an FTP users, they get a nominal fee from the state each year.

So you have a problem where a huge amount of riders are resulting in BE getting a nominal fee and the paying customers are subsiding the FTP with their fares.

There can't be a rational discussion on FTP. You hear about all the taxes, FTP users paid and how they live in poverty on par with a Moldavian. With FTP they couldn't get to the near daily hospital appointments they seem to have etc.

The subsidy for FTP users is BS and the state is going to accept that. Fares are only going to get higher as more and more people are eligible for FTP and there will be less and less paying customers

With an aging population it's a totally unsustainable model. Somethings gonna have to give. High paid drivers on a service a huge amount of people use for free. DOES NOT CCOMPUTE.

C. Montgomery Gurns

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Because driverless cars are on the way. It's only a matter of time.

Ah driverless cars. Brought to you by the type of people who sold people fool proof shares in Eircom and convinced major firms that they needed to spend thousands on preventative measures against the Millennium Bug.


2021 is the date they are giving. I would be surprised to see them a reality by 3021. Not only is no technology foolproof, but there are too many vested interests in maintaining the status quo (no insurance company in their right mind would insure these things for a start. Technology that apparently can't crash means the end of the insurance trade. Add in the anarchy anyone working in the transport trade would bring to prevent its introduction, the idea that a driverless bus could somehow spin around West Dublin without being vandalised beyond use, it is an utter nonsensical pipe dream. The vast majority of fixed rail transport is not automated yet clowns are investing their money in driverless road vehicles. It beggars belief. At the very most it may get a go in rural backwaters and save the pub industry. In an urban area? Not a hope.

stimpson

C. Montgomery Gurns wrote: »

Ah driverless cars. Brought to you by the type of people who sold people fool proof shares in Eircom and convinced major firms that they needed to spend thousands on preventative measures against the Millennium Bug.

Nope. Brought to you by the people who invented PayPal and SpaceX. The Tesla Model S already has semi-autonomous mode but is equipped with the hardware to enable fully autonomous mode, which is due with a software update this year. As for foolproof, the semi autonomous mode was responsible for a reduction in Model S accidents of 40%. Not foolproof, but better than a human already.

And major firms did need to spend billions on the millennium bug. The fact that there was limited disruption was because of this effort, not in spite of it.

For Forks Sake

Brian? wrote: »

The problem is not Bus Eireann losing money. The problem is the expectation that an essential public service should be profitable.

11m is a drop in the ocean for the Irish government budget. It's a public service, I'm not saying throw money at it but let's stop prentending it's a company that's supposed to make money. Any private bus company would simply drop any non profitable route. Is that what we want?

The Expressway part of BE is what is dragging it down, that is not an essential service, as shown by the fact that BE are getting their arses handed to them on the major intercity routes by more efficient private operators. The local routes and school transport are state subsidised and are genuine public services.

Also, it takes a particularly special type of group to lodge a pay claim on a company heading for insolvency #unionlogic :rolleyes:

darkpagandeath

Company fast on the way to insolvency. Job looses or pay cuts 2 options. Dole or a job.

KingBrian2

The simple solution would be let it go bankrupt and that would allow the company to sack all the employees and start from scratch. That is not feasible as the public would get outraged and too many good public servants would lose their livelihoods. Just like what happened with Cleary's. What is needed is some sort of a business plan get investors in with expertise who can turn companies around. Reduce inefficiencies and provide better incentive rather than just throwing money at every problem.

end of the road

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Everyone has money woes and you're just picking a red herring to have a go at. What about the €1 billion spent on Irish each year? A lot more than is being spent on Calais, that's for sure.

In any case, the only reason they're getting special handouts is because they're working in a monopoly. Many of us don't have that luxury so why should they?

they don't get special handouts.
in general terms, one being unable to get isn't a reason for another not to get, in life people have to meet certain criteria to receive something.

Galway_Old_Man wrote: »

I'd probably have some sympathy for the CIE people if it weren't for me actually having to deal with them for the guts of two years, and knowing what they're like.

except you don't know what they are like. you only know what a small few are like because you only have dealt with a small few out of a couple of thousand employees.

suicide_circus wrote: »

I heard some talking head on the radio saying that if everyone on a free travel pass paid €6 per year...PER YEAR, that the hole in bus eireanns finances would be filled. 6 f*cking Euro. 11 Cent per week for unlimited public transport. And yet this idea wont even be given any discussion lest the sacred cows with their endless advocacy groups start screeching about elderly people freeze to death in their homes.

it won't be discussed because it would likely cost more to admin the whole thing then it would bring in

stimpson wrote: »

The fares are so high because the wages are so high. They pay staff an average of €48,819. About 20% higher than private operators. Not to mention the tasty pensions.

It's driving a bus ffs. It's not rocket science.

it doesn't matter whether it is rocket science or not, the pay reflects the responsibility of the job. and remember, average isn't the actual wage of each employee. bus eireann have quite a lot of employees.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The problem is that they are grossly overpaid. Because the mistake of overpaying them was madebin the past and in the main a legacy of the inefficiency and uneconomic wages, benefits, and overtime, of its days as a public service gravy bus is no reason to perpetuate that mistake. Their pay must be reduced to levels in line with the market rate for driving a vehicle around. Rather than whine about the pain of the impending pay correction, the staff should be thankful they got away with being overpaid for so long, and get on with readjusting their personal finances.

they aren't overpaid. their pay is all ready at the market rate.

stimpson

end of the road wrote: »

it doesn't matter whether it is rocket science or not, the pay reflects the responsibility of the job. and remember, average isn't the actual wage of each employee. bus eireann have quite a lot of employees.

Except it doesn't. Bus drivers for private companies get paid 25% less, yet have the same responsibility. I understand how averages work. I'm sure they have many employees on more than the average too.

end of the road

boombang wrote: »

We have to open our eyes that there are other suppliers willing and able to provide the same services for less (when then can access the public service subvention for uneconomic routes).

we don't as there aren't other suppliers able and willing to provide the same services for less on the subsidized routes because they aren't going to make money on them. the subsidy would have to be increased so they can make a profit for their shareholders as they are entitled to do.

boombang wrote: »

This means that the tax payer is oblidged to prop up special deals to privaleged workers.

it doesn't. such isn't happening.

boombang wrote: »

Can you imagine your disgust if Enda Kenny forced you to do your weekly food shopping at an expensive convenience store when you could get everything for less at the cheaper supermarket next door.

irrelevant as public subsidized transport is as far from supermarkets and other businesses as it gets.

nice_guy80 wrote: »

They are a lot of the problem

My parents have a car and are well able to afford bus and rail fares
Yet they both have free travel passes and use them very regularly

They should have to contribute to the cost of the free travel scheme
Along with all the others using the scheme very regularly

they shouldn't have to. if they are entitled to free travel then they get free travel.

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Yes they are insane racketeering scum. They are already putting out there that "the lads" won't be stopping Sligo trains at Broombridge to connect with the new Luas service.

because they're are no plans to stop the trains there. should they have lied? personally i think on the basis of public safety it's the correct decisian not to stop at broombridge for the protection of the passengers onboard those trains from what is a hugely known hazard.

end of the road

stimpson wrote: »

Except it doesn't. Bus drivers for private companies get paid 25% less, yet have the same responsibility.

drivers for private operators don't get 25% less. unless it's a very small local operator. it's about between 5 and 10%. + the private operators may offer other terms in replacement for the pay.

stimpson wrote: »

I understand how averages work. I'm sure they have many employees on more than the average too.

only management grades would be on the average or a bit more. everyone else isn't on anything near the average.

stimpson

end of the road wrote: »

drivers for private operators don't get 25% less. unless it's a very small local operator. it's about between 5 and 10%. + the private operators may offer other terms in replacement for the pay.

State company pays average of €48,819 while rivals pay between €30,000 and €39,000

Source

only management grades would be on the average or a bit more. everyone else isn't on anything near the average.

Yeah. You haven't a clue how averages work.

Atlantic Dawn

Why do Unite and NBRU not publish the fees to be a member of their union?

suicide_circus

end of the road wrote: »

they don't get special handouts.
in general terms, one being unable to get isn't a reason for another not to get, in life people have to meet certain criteria to receive something.



except you don't know what they are like. you only know what a small few are like because you only have dealt with a small few out of a couple of thousand employees.



it won't be discussed because it would likely cost more to admin the whole thing then it would bring in




it doesn't matter whether it is rocket science or not, the pay reflects the responsibility of the job. and remember, average isn't the actual wage of each employee. bus eireann have quite a lot of employees.




they aren't overpaid. their pay is all ready at the market rate.

What's your solution?