Hail To The Chief (Read Mod Warning In OP)

jobbridge4life · 24-01-2017 11:06AM

Butters1979 wrote: »

Of course you are. The idea that not everyone agrees with your liberal point of view is completely alien to you. You can't even comprehend a different ideal.

You are not even alone in this thread promoting conservatism/trump/things not liberal. The President of the United States is Trump (albiet he got less votes than his opponent). Marine Le Pen is one of the major contenders, if not favourite to win the Presidency in France within the year. Brexit won.

It may be time to retire your mistaken impression that people don't know conservatives exist.

Wanderer78 · 24-01-2017 11:09AM

kunst nugget wrote:

I'd imagine the financial aspect is only part of the holistic nature of sharia law for her.

Maybe she should live in a country with sharia for a while and then report back to us, I'd like to know

Butters1979 · 24-01-2017 11:09AM

Wibbs wrote: »

This sentence could have been written by someone from either side of this political divide and neither would apparently see the irony in that.

I'm fully aware not everyone agrees with my point of view. I see it every day. However when someone disagrees with me I don't tell them I'm "baffled" they don't see the world how I do.

VinLieger · 24-01-2017 11:20AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So free speech, but only for people you agree with?

I will oppose the introduction of Sharia Law, but I will back anyone's right to promote it if they want to, and I will happily stand with them to promote human rights for all.

Sharia law and human rights are mutually exclusive, anyone who supports one cannot logically fully support the other

jobbridge4life · 24-01-2017 11:27AM

At least Donald isn't a warmonger like Killary:

https://twitter.com/AP/status/823580731322540038

At least Donald doesn't take money from terrible countries, unlike Corrupt Hillary:

https://twitter.com/VABVOX/status/823809658867564544

super_furry · 24-01-2017 11:30AM

Never mind Trump and US warplanes supporting Russia and $1.8B arms deals to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, have you read what some random woman tweeted about Islam?

kunst nugget · 24-01-2017 11:36AM

super_furry wrote: »

Never mind Trump and US warplanes supporting Russia and $1.8B arms deals to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, have you read what some random woman tweeted about Islam?

Hardly a random woman and guess what?!?! I can cast a critical eye on both sides of the political divide! :eek:

Butters1979 · 24-01-2017 11:37AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Out of curiosity, what on that list did you have problems with?

The guy listed what he called 'liberal' policies, why do you think nobody would have a different point of view? Ok here's my point of view. I'm replying because I was asked. I understand completely not everyone sees thing this way but I don't want to derail the thread discussing this big range of topics. I'm happy to join another thread on one of them.
I don't think opening up the abortion can of worms here would be good for the thread so let's not do that. In fact, this is one I'm not happy to join another thread about.

Health care. If people can't afford health care, just get the others to pay for them? No, they need to reform the health system, not pass the bill to someone else.

Minority rights? What rights do 'minorities' not have compared to the 'white male'. They have the exact same rights. What people are really talking about is special treatment. Affirmative action is discrimination. Also, women are not a minority.

The same goes for LGBT. They have the same rights, it's special treatment I'm not for. For the record, I'm pro gay marriage, no issue with that.

Workers have rights, and they abuse it. More so over here than in America. Strikes in the public sector are out of control.

Education. If 'god' is in the classroom or not, this isn't the issue. The standard of education they get is the issue. Giving the kids a day off to protest the election results is a perfect example of the priority and standards America's unionized teachers hold.

Environment. Completely agree here.

Economy, TPP was something the left was protesting against for years I thought. Globalization has failed too many people. Some globalization is good. Too much is a disaster. And it's gone too far.

Corruption - agreed

Basic human decency. That ship has sailed long ago.

kunst nugget · 24-01-2017 11:37AM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

At least Donald isn't a warmonger like Killary:

https://twitter.com/AP/status/823580731322540038

At least Donald doesn't take money from terrible countries, unlike Corrupt Hillary:

https://twitter.com/VABVOX/status/823809658867564544

I wonder will they be able to come up with something as snappy as Killary for Donald?

Billy86 · 24-01-2017 11:38AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Hardly a random woman and guess what?!?! I can cast a critical eye on both sides of the political divide! :eek:

I think the poster was referring to Linda Sarsour, not you.

Butters1979 · 24-01-2017 11:41AM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

You are not even alone in this thread promoting conservatism/trump/things not liberal. The President of the United States is Trump (albiet he got less votes than his opponent). Marine Le Pen is one of the major contenders, if not favourite to win the Presidency in France within the year. Brexit won.

It may be time to retire your mistaken impression that people don't know conservatives exist.

Plenty of people know conservatives exist. But this guy was 'baffled' some stranger on the internet didn't fully agree with him. His word. 'Baffled'

edit: I just realized, I'm baffled he was baffled.

seamus · 24-01-2017 11:42AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

I wonder will they be able to come up with something as snappy as Killary for Donald?

"Bombald"?

Butters1979 · 24-01-2017 11:43AM

kunst nugget wrote: »

I wonder will they be able to come up with something as snappy as Killary for Donald?

Prima Donald?

kunst nugget · 24-01-2017 11:57AM

Butters1979 wrote: »

Health care. If people can't afford health care, just get the others to pay for them? No, they need to reform the health system, not pass the bill to someone else.

Just on this one, what reform can possibly occur where poor people can get the health care they need and others don't pay for it? Not trying to be a mad communist but I'd hope there be a way that those of us who can afford it, whether through taxation or whatever system is in place in the country you live in, help pay into a system that benefits all, rich and poor.

Butters1979 wrote: »

Basic human decency. That ship has sailed long ago.

I genuinely don't believe this. No matter how those in power and influence try to mould our opinions of each other. I think most of us all have basic decency towards each other. Might be an optimist…

Butters1979 · 24-01-2017 12:04PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Just on this one, what reform can possibly occur where poor people can get the health care they need and others don't pay for it? Not trying to be a mad communist but I'd hope there be a way that those of us who can afford it, whether through taxation or whatever system is in place in the country you live in, help pay into a system that benefits all, rich and poor.

I genuinely don't believe this. No matter how those in power and influence try to mould our opinions of each other. I think most of us all have basic decency towards each other. Might be an optimist…

If people can afford it? Just because I can 'afford' to pay your way why should I have to? That's the problem with socialism. If someone has any spare cash they need to be milked. Got forbid they can hold on to some of it. We are already taxed. We already help pay into the system. The problem is it's never going to be enough as long as others expect their way to be paid for.

The reform I'm talking about is the medical, pharmacutical and insurance industries working together to drive the cost of health care up, charging it to the tax payer and making huge profits. The cost of any medical care in the US in 10 times higher than it should be.

On the human decency thing, you're right. I thought it was specific towards the politic parties.

This is another topic for another thread however.

Leroy42 · 24-01-2017 12:05PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

Health care. If people can't afford health care, just get the others to pay for them? No, they need to reform the health system, not pass the bill to someone else.

Yeah sounds great, not sure what it means though. Is it a reduction in all costs, cut number of hospitals, types of treament? Id it free A&E for all or none. What about existing health conditions? What about self inflicted health conditions?

Butters1979 wrote: »

Minority rights? What rights do 'minorities' not have compared to the 'white male'. They have the exact same rights. What people are really talking about is special treatment. Affirmative action is discrimination. Also, women are not a minority.

I'm guessing you are a white male. Do you think it right that women suffer a pay gap? Why do you think black people are X times more likely to be in jail (I don't have the stat to hand, but I know it is more). It is not about having the rights on paper, it is having the rights enshirned in everyday life.

Butters1979 wrote: »

The same goes for LGBT. They have the same rights, it's special treatment I'm not for. For the record, I'm pro gay marriage, no issue with that.

Yet they have had to fight for that 'right'. And plenty of states still do not apply the law, or are actively trying to go back. What special rights do you think they are looking for?

Butters1979 wrote: »

Workers have rights, and they abuse it. More so over here than in America. Strikes in the public sector are out of control.

What strike rights should they have? 2 days a year. Once a dail term? I agree that in some cases strikes are uncalled for but that is a problem with the govt being seen as weak and having a history of folding rather than face the short term negative media reports.

Butters1979 wrote: »

Education. If 'god' is in the classroom or not, this isn't the issue. The standard of education they get is the issue. Giving the kids a day off to protest the election results is a perfect example of the priority and standards America's unionized teachers hold.

But what God? ANd what about those children who don't believe? Why should a belief system be in schools at all. Should there be pro NFL classes, or pro Tetris classes. Why not a class to discuss the greatness of fairies? Should Islam be taught as a counterpoint or a separate class?

Grayson · 24-01-2017 12:09PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Just on this one, what reform can possibly occur where poor people can get the health care they need and others don't pay for it? Not trying to be a mad communist but I'd hope there be a way that those of us who can afford it, whether through taxation or whatever system is in place in the country you live in, help pay into a system that benefits all, rich and poor.

Not just poor people. How about people who are disabled or have long term illnesses? Apparently the rules is that if you can't pay you suffer/die.

Grayson · 24-01-2017 12:15PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

But what God? ANd what about those children who don't believe? Why should a belief system be in schools at all. Should there be pro NFL classes, or pro Tetris classes. Why not a class to discuss the greatness of fairies? Should Islam be taught as a counterpoint or a separate class?

Cost is also the biggest issue for Americans. Third level education is ridiculously expensive. It creates a two tier system where only the children of well off parents can get the advantages of a third level education.

Billy86 · 24-01-2017 12:17PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

If people can afford it? Just because I can 'afford' to pay your way why should I have to? That's the problem with socialism. If someone has any spare cash they need to be milked. Got forbid they can hold on to some of it. We are already taxed. We already help pay into the system. The problem is it's never going to be enough as long as others expect their way to be paid for.

On the human decency thing, you're right. I thought it was specific towards the politic parties.

Am I misreading this or is your argument basically that if someone gets sick and can't afford the medication, well tough sh*t and it was nice knowing you?

And how is it that people are not allowed hold on to their earnings, unless you're being deliberately disingenuous? In the US you get taxed about 12.5% on a $20,000 annual income, 16% on $30,000, 20% on $50,000, $26% on $100,000, or 31% on $300,000 http://us.thetaxcalculator.net/ - and that's as a single person with no dependents, before taking advantage the many loopholes etc into account.

kunst nugget · 24-01-2017 12:18PM

Grayson wrote: »

Not just poor people. How about people who are disabled or have long term illnesses? Apparently the rules is that if you can't pay you suffer/die.

Probably simplified the language but obviously meant those that can't afford their treatment.

Butters1979 · 24-01-2017 12:20PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

Ok here's my point of view. I'm replying because I was asked. I understand completely not everyone sees thing this way but I don't want to derail the thread discussing this big range of topics. I'm happy to join another thread on one of them.
.

Come on lads. Absolute meltdown. Another thread yeah?
This is about Trump.

kunst nugget · 24-01-2017 12:24PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

If people can afford it? Just because I can 'afford' to pay your way why should I have to? That's the problem with socialism. If someone has any spare cash they need to be milked. Got forbid they can hold on to some of it. We are already taxed. We already help pay into the system. The problem is it's never going to be enough as long as others expect their way to be paid for.

Interestingly enough, what I'd consider one of the basic tenets of human decency is, as a society, looking after those that can't look after themselves.

Grayson · 24-01-2017 12:24PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

Come on lads. Absolute meltdown. Another thread yeah?
This is about Trump.

But a lot of those are Trumps view point too and we can't argue with Trump

kunst nugget · 24-01-2017 12:25PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

Prima Donald?

The Trumpinator?

Butters1979 · 24-01-2017 12:26PM

Grayson wrote: »

But a lot of those are Trumps view point too and we can't argue with Trump

You could until they took his twitter access of him. I miss that already.

kunst nugget wrote: »

Interestingly enough, what I'd consider one of the basic tenets of human decency is, as a society, looking after those that can't look after themselves.

Absolutely. Please remember I'm talking about too much tax and too much welfare. I am not looking for 0% tax and zero welfare. Where we draw the line, and we have to draw the line, is where we can differ on.

Its difficult to afford looking after those that can't look after themselves when we are also looking after those that won't look after themselves.

Wanderer78 · 24-01-2017 12:32PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

Absolutely. Please remember I'm talking about too much tax and too much welfare. I am not looking for 0% tax and zero welfare.

Its difficult to afford looking after those that can't look after themselves when we are also looking after those that won't look after themselves.

some research into the causes of long term unemployment i feel is needed here, its very complex

24-01-2017 12:34PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Am I misreading this or is your argument basically that if someone gets sick and can't afford the medication, well tough sh*t and it was nice knowing you?

Tonnes of Americans have this mindset.. In fact, all of the Americans I'm friends with are Democrat but don't want Universal Healthcare. It was actually one of their issues with Bernie. What makes it mindnumbing is that the US government pays more per capita on healthcare than anywhere else, and then the people still need insurance or they die.

Butters1979 · 24-01-2017 12:37PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

some research into the causes of long term unemployment i feel is needed here, its very complex

It's not that complex, although it's not that simple either. Decent article here
https://www.thebalance.com/long-term-unemployment-what-it-is-causes-and-effects-3305518

Deleted User wrote: »

What makes it mindnumbing is that the US government pays more per capita on healthcare than anywhere else, and then the people still need insurance or they die.

That's the problem, and the solution is not to spend more. It's to tackle the cause of the high prices. Democratic party want to spend more as they are lobbied by the companies who profit hugely in the US medical industry. It is not because they care for the poor. But they like to say that's why, as that's their voter base. In the mean time, more and more taxes go into paying for it.

Wanderer78 · 24-01-2017 12:41PM

Butters1979 wrote: »

decent article here
https://www.thebalance.com/long-term-unemployment-what-it-is-causes-and-effects-3305518

looks interesting but unfortunately probably wont read it, my own opinion on the matter, caused largely by complex behavioural and personality disorders, disabilities, mental health issues etc etc etc, but im sure its more complicated than that

Billy86 · 24-01-2017 12:46PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Tonnes of Americans have this mindset.. In fact, all of the Americans I'm friends with are Democrat but don't want Universal Healthcare. It was actually one of their issues with Bernie. What makes it mindnumbing is that the US government pays more per capita on healthcare than anywhere else, and then the people still need insurance or they die.

That's interesting because I know a lot of Americans and most are fully in favour of a healthcare system similar to that in Europe or Canada. Essentially all that don't are Republican leaning, a surprising number of which are both pro-ACA and anti-Obamacare which really is quite telling in terms of how much they have looked into the issues rather than relying on soundbites. It's always been very much a party allegiance issue from what I have seen, but it is also somewhat disturbing how many people on the 'no' side of it rely or depend on the very thing they oppose. A huge part of the reason Americans spend so much is to do with party politics trying to make one plan as scuppered as possible for their own gains, which is frankly pretty disgusting.

Deleted User wrote: »

In theory, absolutely not. One President could be easily cause job losses while the promise of another promotes creation.

Or in a somewhat related example, do you hold Obama or Bush responsible for the 5 million increase in unemployment at the start of Obama's term? When do you start saying Obama was responsible for job creation?

It's likely you blame Bush for those job losses which helps my point by saying "jobs can be affected by one President in another's term."

By the way to get back to this for a second, all I was doing here was holding Trump to his own standards. If he wants to take credit for jobs coming about before his first day in office and if his supporters want to get in behind that, then he can take responsibility for jobs lost after he has assumed office too. The 'jobs' platform he adopted played a huge role in his winning the election, but is not going to be kind on Trump compared to Obama as time goes on, with the latter being President during the creation of about 13mn jobs the first day of his presidency to the last. It's going to be very interesting to see how this goes down with the rust-belter, as opposed to the hardcore Trumpeteers.

Hail To The Chief (Read Mod Warning In OP)

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