Why do Irish people accept status quo?

VinLieger · 23-12-2016 10:01AM

bbbaldy wrote: »

We should compare ourselves against other eu countries. Then you will find that we are way behind in many ways. Not just our politicians.
Are we proud that we are better than Ghana.

Most of those countries pay far higher taxes than we do to fund these services, Irish people want those services but just aren't willing to pay for them.

weldoninhio · 23-12-2016 10:01AM

whisky_galore wrote: »

I think you will find we are in the ha'penny place in the corruption index if you consider certain Arabic, African and Asian countries and a hell of a lot more stable.

I thought this thread was about Ireland, not Arabia, Africa and Asia??

weldoninhio · 23-12-2016 10:04AM

VinLieger wrote: »

Most of those countries pay far higher taxes than we do to fund these services, Irish people want those services but just aren't willing to pay for them.

Ireland's public spending on health is the highest per capita in Europe. We pump huge money in but get a third world service. No politician has the balls to reform the service.

We ARE paying for a decent service, we are not getting one.

Calahonda52 · 23-12-2016 10:07AM

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

We have gone from being one of the poorest countries in Western Europe at independence to one of the safest, most prosperous and downright fair societies on the planet. We have excellent access to politicians, perhaps too much so, as it means they tend to cater for the shouty parish pump crew instead of the greater good.

What some people really need from Santa for Christmas is a sense of perspective.

National debt at 200Bn and borrowing 1 mill a day still, before the USC cuts next year add another 1 mill a day to the ND.

I sense you are trolling so enough said.

GreenFolder2 · 23-12-2016 10:09AM

Be careful what you wish for: Swiss direct democracy didn't grant women the vote until 1971 in federal elections and the last canton only came on board the 20th century in 1991.

Rumpy Pumpy · 23-12-2016 10:10AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

Ireland's public spending on health is the highest per capita in Europe. We pump huge money in but get a third world service. No politician has the balls to reform the service.

We ARE paying for a decent service, we are not getting one.

How would you reform the health service? Lots of extremely capable ministers backed up by a hard working crew of civil servants have tried.

The reality is that gombeens down the country feel emotionally attached to the useless hospital in their dying backwater regional town. We've far too many hospitals like that. Look at the uproar in Roscommon when they went to close the a and e there. I'd rather sew back on my own bollocks than go there for treatment there in the event of a severe trauma to the testicles.

whisky_galore · 23-12-2016 10:11AM

bbbaldy wrote: »

We should compare ourselves against other eu countries. Then you will find that we are way behind in many ways. Not just our politicians.
Are we proud that we are better than Ghana.

Which EU countries? Denmark, Italy.... or

Greece?

I think what may be the problem is our national outlook, the 'sure it'll be grand' mindset, not aspiring to any higher standards and doing the bare minimum necessary to keep us out of serious trouble, happy enough to wallow in our own mediocrity.
Also, high up and low down we tend to feather our own nests, look after our own bailiwicks which feeds into clientelism and 'parish pump' politics to the detriment of the bigger picture.

A nation of Mé Feiners, which I don't see changing anytime soon.

GreenFolder2 · 23-12-2016 10:14AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

Ireland's public spending on health is the highest per capita in Europe. We pump huge money in but get a third world service. No politician has the balls to reform the service.

We ARE paying for a decent service, we are not getting one.

That's actually an often quoted statement that's not actually true.

Our health spending is upper mid table in the EU. We spend more in €\£ per capita than the UK, Spain etc but quite a lot less than France, Germany and way less than Nordic countries.

Look it up sometime.

weldoninhio · 23-12-2016 10:17AM

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

How would you reform the health service? Lots of extremely capable ministers backed up by a hard working crew of civil servants have tried.

The reality is that gombeens down the country feel emotionally attached to the useless hospital in their dying backwater regional town. We've far too many hospitals like that. Look at the uproar in Roscommon when they went to close the a and e there. I'd rather sew back on my own bollocks than go there for treatment there in the event of a severe trauma to the testicles.

I'd reform it by doing what's best for the health service, not listening to whinging from locals. I'd research other nations of a comparative size to Ireland and see what works for them.

I'd try to get cross party support for this long term plan so that if after the next election I'm out the plan will remain in place no matter who's in charge. Or a binding agreement from the other main parties. Ireland's myopic election promises ruin any chance we have of reform. No one plans long term,

Rumpy Pumpy · 23-12-2016 10:17AM

Calahonda52 wrote: »

National debt at 200Bn and borrowing 1 mill a day still, before the USC cuts next year add another 1 mill a day to the ND.

I sense you are trolling so enough said.

I'm not trolling. Like racist, it's a word that has lost all meaning these days.
That said, it's good to see you so concerned about our borrowing and debt. It's unsustainable. What do you think the Government should trim the budget of to get things under control? Heakrh, education, social welfare, infrastructure?

VinLieger · 23-12-2016 10:23AM

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

I'm not trolling. Like racist, it's a word that has lost all meaning these days.
That said, it's good to see you so concerned about our borrowing and debt. It's unsustainable. What do you think the Government should trim the budget of to get things under control? Heakrh, education, social welfare, infrastructure?

Don't cut anything, keep the USC and get people who refuse to pay their way to start paying tax and both the top and bottom of the tax bracket, im tired of sitting in the middle and having my pay packet raped for every new fvcking crisis that comes along.

Problem with that is theres no way any politician would get elected by idiotic Irish electorate. People talk about politicians not planning for the future? They are never asked to by the people voting for them as every 7 years its a case of going to peoples doors and promising them the sun moon and stars for the next 7, no voter really cares when it comes to elections about the next 14 or the next 21 years cus we are all too god damn selfish.

weldoninhio · 23-12-2016 10:23AM

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

I'm not trolling. Like racist, it's a word that has lost all meaning these days.
That said, it's good to see you so concerned about our borrowing and debt. It's unsustainable. What do you think the Government should trim the budget of to get things under control? Heakrh, education, social welfare, infrastructure?

Well we could save €640m with the stroke of a pen.

Yourself isit · 23-12-2016 10:24AM

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

How would you reform the health service? Lots of extremely capable ministers backed up by a hard working crew of civil servants have tried.

The reality is that gombeens down the country feel emotionally attached to the useless hospital in their dying backwater regional town. We've far too many hospitals like that. Look at the uproar in Roscommon when they went to close the a and e there. I'd rather sew back on my own bollocks than go there for treatment there in the event of a severe trauma to the testicles.

That doesn't really explain A&E failures in Dublin.

whisky_galore · 23-12-2016 10:26AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

I thought this thread was about Ireland, not Arabia, Africa and Asia??

Calling Ireland a 'corrupt cesspit' is hyperbole tbf compared to other places.

GreenFolder2 · 23-12-2016 10:30AM

Yourself isit wrote: »

That doesn't really explain A&E failures in Dublin.

A&E is failing in the cities big time. The problem is we're not funding adequate primary care and local clinics etc which is resulting in many non serious emergencies in A&E. Also the waiting lists are so long that you've very sick people turning up in A&E who should have been admitted to hospital for treatment via other channels.

On top of that Ireland has a major issue with alcohol fueled injuries at weekends that doesn't happen in most other places (the UK is similar in places). These lead to a futher stretch of resources.

A&E is also underfunded in urban areas when you look at how rapidly their hinterlands grew vs how health infrastructure didn't really expand at the same rate.

Health is funded slightly more heavily than the UK here but it's not nearly as well funded as some of the northern European countries which likely have similar salary costs to Ireland. Comparing with Spain and Italy etc forgets that people are paid less and living costs are genuinely lower.

RoboRat · 23-12-2016 10:37AM

The grass is always greener on the other side so be careful what you wish for.

Anyhow, politics is only the tip of the iceberg. Even if we had the cleanest and most diligent politicians, we would still be in pretty much the same boat.

The political system ensures politicians always have one eye on the next election so therefore are looking after local interests that will get them elected next time. If they don't look after their constituency, they wont get elected and this is why the likes of Lowry and the Healy Rae's get elected time and time again. How this is resolved, I don't know but perhaps local issues should only be dealt with by local councils and national politicians cannot have a hand in local issues... or that we just go for a party only system.

The second and bigger issue is that politicians are only really figure heads. The civil service are the real power brokers and they are not elected. A politician can ask for reform or change but if the civil service don't like the proposal, it doesn't happen. The government's hands are tied in regards to the civil service as if they rattle the cage, the unions step in. It's also very hard to remove someone from a position, especially the higher you go. In a lot of cases, promotions are based off duration of service rather than actual ability so the people at the top are institutionalised into a train of thought.

I am not saying that the civil service is rotten and that all workers are inept, there are many many great workers and being honest, people who have the talent and ability are being overlooked for those who are there longer.

I think that the civil service needs to be reformed but to do so would only cause the unions to step in so realistically there would be many years of subtle changes to the system to allow the government to actually do something. This in itself is near impossible when the changes that need to be executed will be done by the people to whom these changes are going to directly affect... you are basically asking them to make a noose for their own necks.

The other option is to rip the band aid off and hope that we don't bleed out, which is a very real risk.

In a perfect world the civil service would be run like a private sector company and people are held accountable for their position and actions, perhaps the top level could also be elected to their positions but this isn't a perfect world.

Edited to add, I think the last few governments have been working on a process of removing the power from the civil service with the selling off or privatisation / semi privatisation or key industries such as transport, power, banks etc. I can see this continuing to happen until they are in a position where they can make the changes without the fear of the country being crippled or being held to ransom.

AnGaelach · 23-12-2016 10:51AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'd reform it by doing what's best for the health service, not listening to whinging from locals. I'd research other nations of a comparative size to Ireland and see what works for them.

How will you implement it when your entire backbench is willing to revolt to protect their local interests?

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'd try to get cross party support for this long term plan so that if after the next election I'm out the plan will remain in place no matter who's in charge. Or a binding agreement from the other main parties. Ireland's myopic election promises ruin any chance we have of reform. No one plans long term,

You wouldn't get cross-party support though because restoring the amenities you just cut would be what everyone campaigns on. Even if you did magically manage to pull it off, you're just going to get everyone voting for quacks like the fúcking AAA-PBP.

All you'd have done is driven your own party into the ground, and maybe taken a few other parties with you.

FutureGuy · 23-12-2016 10:54AM

Johnboner wrote: »

Why most of us are satisfied with the current situation. I mean healthcare, housing, homeless, roads etc. I don't understand why so many people just accept the situation and dismiss any attempt to change by just saying where will you get the money or that there is nothing that can be done! but that is so wrong, people that achieve great things are the people who say how can we improve this? And work towards the goals instead of just giving up and accepting the situation. I will never understand this, why we as a nation do not want changes to happen or just give some excuse as to why it cannot be done, when we should be saying how it can be done. Just disappointed with the current situation in our country and that nothing is being done, same situation in France would likely cause rioting. For people saying that it is unreasonable please visit other European countries and have a look for yourself. We should be constantly looking to improve instead of just accepting the situation. Maybe that is in our culture so people will not understand me and will try to subtly insult me in various ways instead of giving arguments.

How dare you.

How utterly dare you.

We bitch about it on social media but then pop out to the Chinese takeaway before X-Factor starts.

weldoninhio · 23-12-2016 10:58AM

AnGaelach wrote: »

How will you implement it when your entire backbench is willing to revolt to protect their local interests?

You wouldn't get cross-party support though because restoring the amenities you just cut would be what everyone campaigns on. Even if you did magically manage to pull it off, you're just going to get everyone voting for quacks like the fúcking AAA-PBP.

All you'd have done is driven your own party into the ground, and maybe taken a few other parties with you.

I'd ban TDs from getting involved in local matters, with large fines to their party for anyone caught meddling. They are elected to run the country, councillors are there to look after local issues.

If the fine is not paid, it should come out of the canvassing budget in the next election. Or in extreme cases, be banned from running for election.

weldoninhio · 23-12-2016 11:00AM

AnGaelach wrote: »

You wouldn't get cross-party support though because restoring the amenities you just cut would be what everyone campaigns on. Even if you did magically manage to pull it off, you're just going to get everyone voting for quacks like the fúcking AAA-PBP.

All you'd have done is driven your own party into the ground, and maybe taken a few other parties with you.

And after a few months of AAA-PBP people would see that they were quacks and would maybe see the value in long term planning and reform.

seamus · 23-12-2016 11:01AM

For some reason people always seem to present this as a boolean situation. If a population isn't rioting and blocking up the streets, then they must be "happy".

Here in Ireland we tend to understand that change at a national level usually takes time. It's rarely if ever a matter of clicking fingers and making a problem go away.

We also feel a good deal more civically-connected than many other populations. There is far less of a "them and us" attitude when it comes to politicians and government agencies. With that comes an understanding that protesting at the drop of a hat and rioting just hurts everyone.

The "flatness" of society is illustrated in the fact that the leader of the government can be found in his local pub without heavily armed security flanking him and the president can be seen queuing up at an ATM behind other punters. It's this which provides the population with a feeling that national politics is far more accessible than in other countries.

In fact, we tend to defend the position of politicians as normal people who've been given the reigns; when Pat Rabbitte had some moron shouting in his face while he was trying to eat his lunch, the sentiment was overwhelmingly in support of Rabbitte.

Billy86 · 23-12-2016 11:21AM

Johnboner wrote: »

After reading the topic I forgot it's name but where we are compared to other European countries I would say yes. Majority seem to be comparing Ireland with third world which does not make sense. ''Hey we are better than Somalia that means we are great!'' but so is many other countries just because you are better than someone does not mean you should just give up on improving and accept the situation I just don't understand the logic.

Just curious where these comparisons to other European countries on issues like homelessness are? Apparently we have a lower per-capita homelessness figure than Finland, Germany, France, Greece, the UK, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden. Now that's not to say all is peachy and fine here, but it does suggest that it is not the easily solved problem nobody else in Europe seems to be struggling with that gets touted out quite often.

I would like to see better services in this regard, as well as infrastructural, healthcare etc but I do hope that people realise this would mean higher tax rates. I suspect any effort to do so by any government would not be well received whatsoever.

Parchment · 23-12-2016 11:23AM

We don't have it particularly bad - i would say thats why we "accept" it.

Sure Ireland is not perfect and has some frustrating aspects but over all we are pretty lucky here if you ask me.

CelticRambler · 23-12-2016 11:25AM

Johnboner wrote: »

Just disappointed with the current situation in our country and that nothing is being done, same situation in France would likely cause rioting. For people saying that it is unreasonable please visit other European countries and have a look for yourself.

:pac::pac::pac: In France, they riot to preserve the status quo regardless of how much better and/or sensible the proposed alternative might be. The grass in other European countries might look greener when you visit, but try living in one for a while and you soon find that the reality is quite different.

GreenFolder2 · 23-12-2016 11:26AM

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'd ban TDs from getting involved in local matters, with large fines to their party for anyone caught meddling. They are elected to run the country, councillors are there to look after local issues.

If the fine is not paid, it should come out of the canvassing budget in the next election. Or in extreme cases, be banned from running for election.

The big problem is we've a system of weak local government where the local elections are almost irrelevant. That results in TDs being the "go to" for everything.

We need to genuinely devolve power to city councils and county councils and move away from this city and county manager approach and towards properly accountable executive local government.

Without that, local issues end up being TDs' concerns and the line between what's local and what's national is blurred.

It's nothing to do with fining anyone it's a structural problem.

LordSutch · 23-12-2016 10:45PM

Things won't be the same now that Rick Parfitt has retired

Nice Christmas song though ...

https://youtu.be/JK0Hchdf7u8

joebloggs32 · 23-12-2016 10:50PM

Johnboner wrote: »

After reading the topic I forgot it's name but where we are compared to other European countries I would say yes. Majority seem to be comparing Ireland with third world which does not make sense. ''Hey we are better than Somalia that means we are great!'' but so is many other countries just because you are better than someone does not mean you should just give up on improving and accept the situation I just don't understand the logic.

Have a look at our HDI score and you will see we are much better off than alot more countries in the world, in fact there are only 5 better ones! http://hdr.undp.org/en/composite/HDI

wakka12 · 23-12-2016 11:08PM

wtf how is this just irish people? pretty sure literally every country on earth has the problems you listed above, probably in more extreme ways in most countries in the world, does the whole world just accept the status quo

I agree with most of your points though I think everyone should be trying to improve no matter how good the country is presently and IM not justifying keeping things the way they are/ But your post was very directed at irish people 'its in our culture' as if the country is in complete **** and behind everyone else and we just couldn't give a ****. Self hating bs

Berserker · 23-12-2016 11:48PM

People accept the status quo because Ireland is a very safe, prosperous and easy place to live by world standards. Certain people are not happy with the cost of housing, healthcare etc but you are going to encounter the same problems in many first world countries around the world. I get to travel the world as part of my job and we are actually a relatively equal society, in my opinion. If you want to see genuine inequality, go to certain parts of the USA or India.

24-12-2016 05:49PM

NOW this thread seems eerie...

Why do Irish people accept status quo?

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