Why do Irish people accept status quo?

Johnboner

Why most of us are satisfied with the current situation. I mean healthcare, housing, homeless, roads etc. I don't understand why so many people just accept the situation and dismiss any attempt to change by just saying where will you get the money or that there is nothing that can be done! but that is so wrong, people that achieve great things are the people who say how can we improve this? And work towards the goals instead of just giving up and accepting the situation. I will never understand this, why we as a nation do not want changes to happen or just give some excuse as to why it cannot be done, when we should be saying how it can be done. Just disappointed with the current situation in our country and that nothing is being done, same situation in France would likely cause rioting. For people saying that it is unreasonable please visit other European countries and have a look for yourself. We should be constantly looking to improve instead of just accepting the situation. Maybe that is in our culture so people will not understand me and will try to subtly insult me in various ways instead of giving arguments.

lawred2

Satisfied?

enricoh

They were a lot bigger in the 80's early 90's I would have thought. Just milking rocking all over the world these days!

Johnboner

lawred2 wrote: »

Satisfied?

After reading the topic I forgot it's name but where we are compared to other European countries I would say yes. Majority seem to be comparing Ireland with third world which does not make sense. ''Hey we are better than Somalia that means we are great!'' but so is many other countries just because you are better than someone does not mean you should just give up on improving and accept the situation I just don't understand the logic.

Advbrd

enricoh wrote: »

They were a lot bigger in the 80's early 90's I would have thought. Just milking rocking all over the world these days!

Took me a moment.

evolving_doors

Do other countries have the same preponderance of charities?

If we stopped outsourcing citizens problems and demanded that it become an issue that the state solely had to deal with... would we be willing to pay more in tax?

I'm not blaming charities BTW, I think they are more of a symptom than a cause.

Rumpy Pumpy

We live in a mature and prosperous social democracy. People have the chance to make changes to the country through free and open elections. We don't vote for lunatic lefties or rapidly right wing parties, much to the dismay of their online keyboard warriors. Turns out Paddy and Petula Punter know things are pretty damn good and some goon like Paul Murphy isn't going to make it any better with his talk of revolution.

Johnboner

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

We live in a mature and prosperous social democracy. People have the chance to make changes to the country through free and open elections. We don't vote for lunatic lefties or rapidly right wing parties, much to the dismay of their online keyboard warriors. Turns out Paddy and Petula Punter know things are pretty damn good and some goon like Paul Murphy isn't going to make it any better with his talk of revolution.

We don't have much say except in electing the people which do not seem to be interested in doing anything. This is the reason why I strongly support direct democracy, Switzerland is very successful in this regard, we should be taking examples from it.

Pinch Flat

I wouldn't agree with the above statement that we are a mature society - on the contrary i'd say Irish society is very immature socially with some of the attitudes out there.

Also at the centre Irish life is the mé féin attitude. Once the number of society for which "I'm all right jack" outstrips the numbers who don't have a pot to p!ss in the current situation will prevail.

Advbrd

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

We live in a mature and prosperous social democracy. People have the chance to make changes to the country through free and open elections. We don't vote for lunatic lefties or rapidly right wing parties, much to the dismay of their online keyboard warriors. Turns out Paddy and Petula Punter know things are pretty damn good and some goon like Paul Murphy isn't going to make it any better with his talk of revolution.

Quite a few lunatic lefties elected last time around. We do not have the same issues which has spawned the rise (or re-emergence) of the right in other countries yet but I suspect that will change over the next generation or so.

munchkin_utd

Johnboner wrote: »

We don't have much say except in electing the people which do not seem to be interested in doing anything. This is the reason why I strongly support direct democracy, Switzerland is very successful in this regard, we should be taking examples from it.

people have a massive say

they want water for zero cost, and they elect politicans to deliver it.
they want a medical system for zero cost, and they elect politicans to deliver it.
they want free transport, electricity, tv licence, phone, heating for pensioners, and they elect politicans to deliver it
they want low income taxes, and they elect politicans to deliver it

The people of Ireland want scandanavian/ germanic level services BUT are not prepared to pay for it.
The politicans and civil service are actually working miracles to somehow provide the amount of services that are being provided with one of the lowest income tax regimes in the western world.

And, it'll not be long again till 50% of workers are out of the tax net like it was during the boom and dont pay a single cent of income tax for what is a fairly generous raft of services to the general public.

Rumpy Pumpy

Johnboner wrote: »

We don't have much say except in electing the people which do not seem to be interested in doing anything. This is the reason why I strongly support direct democracy, Switzerland is very successful in this regard, we should be taking examples from it.

We have gone from being one of the poorest countries in Western Europe at independence to one of the safest, most prosperous and downright fair societies on the planet. We have excellent access to politicians, perhaps too much so, as it means they tend to cater for the shouty parish pump crew instead of the greater good.

What some people really need from Santa for Christmas is a sense of perspective.

Badly Drunk Boy

Johnboner wrote: »

Why most of us are satisfied with the current situation...

Do you accept the status quo? And if not, how do you show this non-acceptance (other than starting anti-Irish threads on boards)?

Johnboner

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

We have gone from being one of the poorest countries in Western Europe at independence to one of the safest, most prosperous and downright fair societies on the planet. We have excellent access to politicians, perhaps too much so, as it means they tend to cater for the shouty parish pump crew instead of the greater good.

What some people really need from Santa for Christmas is a sense of perspective.

Of course, there is no denying that but does not mean we should stop there. We are almost on top but why not be on top?

Giruilla

a) Because we really don't have it that bad.

b) In Ireland if 0.015% of the population get angry enough and march the streets, its 60,000 people. In Paris it'd be 1,000,000.

Johnboner

Giruilla wrote: »

a) Because we really don't have it that bad.

b) In Ireland if 0.015% of the population get angry enough and march the streets, its 60,000 people. In Paris it'd be 1,000,000.

I never said we have it that bad, I said why we don't want to improve on that not bad.

Absolam

The Swiss are also remarkable for their commitment to the status quo, and are known to be conservative when it comes to changing legislation in regards to issues like abortion for instance; it took numerous referenda before they came to where they are now, and they have shown distinct inertia towards changing since. Their system is also, more than any other, accused of being a tyranny of the majority, since direct democracy severely hampers the influence minorities can have on public policy.

I think it's fair to say that any large group of people (like a nation) will lean towards the status quo, because it minimises risk to what they have, which is very important to people with assets and families, who tend to make up the majority of populations. I'd be willing to bet that the more affluent a society is, the more risk averse (accepting of the status quo) it becomes.

weldoninhio

Politically speaking Ireland is a corrupt cesspit. There are literally no options for the voters and no way to change this. We have the two establishment parties, Labour, Sinn Fein and then a mishmash of the bad and the worse.

The two establishment parties are the exact same with except for in name. Labour tried to become a third establishment party and abandoned its ethos to do so. Sinn Fein still have the troubles hanging over them. So politically we are screwed. What options are there?? Most people can't afford to take days off work to protest because every penny is a prisoner to people who work. Rising up on a Saturday or Sunday is pointless because the Dail is empty,

What would you suggest to change the status quo??

VinLieger

Johnboner wrote: »

I never said we have it that bad, I said why we don't want to improve on that not bad.

People do they just don't want to have to pay for it is the actual problem

Your Face

I wonder what the OP does that challenges the status quo.
Perhaps they would like to enlighten me - a mere Johnny Paycheque.

munchkin_utd

Johnboner wrote: »

I never said we have it that bad, I said why we don't want to improve on that not bad.

the medical system could be very easily fixed, but if you wanted to have something like the german system, would you be prepared to pay 16% of your wages ON TOP of your normal tax and PRSI ?
Seriously, on the average wage of 33k a year, a couple has a joint wage of 66k, and thats 10500 per year in contributions to the medical system if you had the german model.
Myself and the wife are earning more, so we are paying more like 15grand a year in german medical insurance, but in Ireland everything has to be free, so that wouldnt work there .

if you want german transport systems, then are you prepared to pay more tax? Actually, in germany (and other continental countries) most of that is covered by corporation tax add ons levied on company profits by the local councils. But of course Ireland has corporation tax laws designed for companies to dodge tax, not pay it, and then its a miniscule on whatever a company actually declares . So again, you can indeed do better but who pays for it ?

AnGaelach

Johnboner wrote: »

Why most of us are satisfied with the current situation. I mean healthcare, housing, homeless, roads etc. I don't understand why so many people just accept the situation and dismiss any attempt to change by just saying where will you get the money or that there is nothing that can be done! but that is so wrong, people that achieve great things are the people who say how can we improve this? And work towards the goals instead of just giving up and accepting the situation. I will never understand this, why we as a nation do not want changes to happen or just give some excuse as to why it cannot be done, when we should be saying how it can be done. Just disappointed with the current situation in our country and that nothing is being done, same situation in France would likely cause rioting. For people saying that it is unreasonable please visit other European countries and have a look for yourself. We should be constantly looking to improve instead of just accepting the situation. Maybe that is in our culture so people will not understand me and will try to subtly insult me in various ways instead of giving arguments.

Why would you want some gobshíte who promises a revolution when the country functions better than 99% of the other countries on the planet? Be happy with what you have, stop having revolutionary notions.

Take the summer off and go lead a revolution in Malawi if you really need to get it out of your system.

AnGaelach

weldoninhio wrote: »

Politically speaking Ireland is a corrupt cesspit. There are literally no options for the voters and no way to change this. We have the two establishment parties, Labour, Sinn Fein and then a mishmash of the bad and the worse.

The two establishment parties are the exact same with except for in name. Labour tried to become a third establishment party and abandoned its ethos to do so. Sinn Fein still have the troubles hanging over them. So politically we are screwed. What options are there?? Most people can't afford to take days off work to protest because every penny is a prisoner to people who work. Rising up on a Saturday or Sunday is pointless because the Dail is empty,

What would you suggest to change the status quo??

If you're convinced there's room for change in Ireland politically, why not start your own? Or should everyone else have to do the hard work for you?

weldoninhio

AH answer: Coz I like it, I like it, i like it, I like it. I l-l-l-like it, l-l-l-like it.

mb30

sher it's grand lad relax €188 a week, yer rent paid on the rent allowance, a medical card for free health care go have a check up (weekly to ensure good health) or have yer teeth whitened if yer feeling bored, stop working and you'll have a great life on the gravy train. Oh and the christmas bonus :-)

Rumpy Pumpy

AnGaelach wrote: »

If you're convinced there's room for change in Ireland politically, why not start your own? Or should everyone else have to do the hard work for you?

There's an alphabet of political parties on the left to vote for. It's not the fault of the electorate that these parties are always splitting - disagreeing over your interpretation of a book written by a beardy German 170 years ago seems to be more important to them than trying to broaden their appeal. We had Renua in the last election who flopped spectacularly. The PDs were a bit of a force for a time but also got shafted by the electorate after going into government.

bbbaldy

AnGaelach wrote:

If you're convinced there's room for change in Ireland politically, why not start your own? Or should everyone else have to do the hard work for you?[/quote

So you have to start a political movement to have an opinion now.

whisky_galore

weldoninhio wrote: »

Politically speaking Ireland is a corrupt cesspit. There are literally no options for the voters and no way to change this. We have the two establishment parties, Labour, Sinn Fein and then a mishmash of the bad and the worse.

I think you will find we are in the ha'penny place in the corruption index if you consider certain Arabic, African and Asian countries and a hell of a lot more stable.

AnGaelach

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

There's an alphabet of political parties on the left to vote for. It's not the fault of the electorate that these parties are always splitting - disagreeing over your interpretation of a book written by a beardy German 170 years ago seems to be more important to them than trying to broaden their appeal. We had Renua in the last election who flopped spectacularly. The PDs were a bit of a force for a time but also got shafted by the electorate after going into government.

They did run on quite a strange platform at their last election though, "Left Government? No thanks" hardly has any catchy ring to it.

bbbaldy wrote: »

So you have to start a political movement to have an opinion now.

Backseat whingers are irritating in their self-righteous laziness. They know better than everyone, yet the most you'll get from them is apathy.

bbbaldy

whisky_galore wrote:

I think you will find we are in the ha'penny place in the corruption index if you consider certain Arabic, African and Asian countries and a hell of a lot more stable.

We should compare ourselves against other eu countries. Then you will find that we are way behind in many ways. Not just our politicians.
Are we proud that we are better than Ghana.

AnGaelach

bbbaldy wrote: »

We should compare ourselves against other eu countries. Then you will find that we are way behind in many ways. Not just our politicians.

What other EU countries are better than us exactly? Compare them with the average tax they pay in those countries vs here and what they get out of it.

VinLieger

bbbaldy wrote: »

We should compare ourselves against other eu countries. Then you will find that we are way behind in many ways. Not just our politicians.
Are we proud that we are better than Ghana.

Most of those countries pay far higher taxes than we do to fund these services, Irish people want those services but just aren't willing to pay for them.

weldoninhio

whisky_galore wrote: »

I think you will find we are in the ha'penny place in the corruption index if you consider certain Arabic, African and Asian countries and a hell of a lot more stable.

I thought this thread was about Ireland, not Arabia, Africa and Asia??

weldoninhio

VinLieger wrote: »

Most of those countries pay far higher taxes than we do to fund these services, Irish people want those services but just aren't willing to pay for them.

Ireland's public spending on health is the highest per capita in Europe. We pump huge money in but get a third world service. No politician has the balls to reform the service.

We ARE paying for a decent service, we are not getting one.

Calahonda52

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

We have gone from being one of the poorest countries in Western Europe at independence to one of the safest, most prosperous and downright fair societies on the planet. We have excellent access to politicians, perhaps too much so, as it means they tend to cater for the shouty parish pump crew instead of the greater good.

What some people really need from Santa for Christmas is a sense of perspective.

National debt at 200Bn and borrowing 1 mill a day still, before the USC cuts next year add another 1 mill a day to the ND.

I sense you are trolling so enough said.

GreenFolder2

Be careful what you wish for: Swiss direct democracy didn't grant women the vote until 1971 in federal elections and the last canton only came on board the 20th century in 1991.

Rumpy Pumpy

weldoninhio wrote: »

Ireland's public spending on health is the highest per capita in Europe. We pump huge money in but get a third world service. No politician has the balls to reform the service.

We ARE paying for a decent service, we are not getting one.

How would you reform the health service? Lots of extremely capable ministers backed up by a hard working crew of civil servants have tried.

The reality is that gombeens down the country feel emotionally attached to the useless hospital in their dying backwater regional town. We've far too many hospitals like that. Look at the uproar in Roscommon when they went to close the a and e there. I'd rather sew back on my own bollocks than go there for treatment there in the event of a severe trauma to the testicles.

whisky_galore

bbbaldy wrote: »

We should compare ourselves against other eu countries. Then you will find that we are way behind in many ways. Not just our politicians.
Are we proud that we are better than Ghana.

Which EU countries? Denmark, Italy.... or Greece?

I think what may be the problem is our national outlook, the 'sure it'll be grand' mindset, not aspiring to any higher standards and doing the bare minimum necessary to keep us out of serious trouble, happy enough to wallow in our own mediocrity.
Also, high up and low down we tend to feather our own nests, look after our own bailiwicks which feeds into clientelism and 'parish pump' politics to the detriment of the bigger picture.

A nation of Mé Feiners, which I don't see changing anytime soon.

GreenFolder2

weldoninhio wrote: »

Ireland's public spending on health is the highest per capita in Europe. We pump huge money in but get a third world service. No politician has the balls to reform the service.

We ARE paying for a decent service, we are not getting one.

That's actually an often quoted statement that's not actually true.

Our health spending is upper mid table in the EU. We spend more in €\£ per capita than the UK, Spain etc but quite a lot less than France, Germany and way less than Nordic countries.

Look it up sometime.

weldoninhio

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

How would you reform the health service? Lots of extremely capable ministers backed up by a hard working crew of civil servants have tried.

The reality is that gombeens down the country feel emotionally attached to the useless hospital in their dying backwater regional town. We've far too many hospitals like that. Look at the uproar in Roscommon when they went to close the a and e there. I'd rather sew back on my own bollocks than go there for treatment there in the event of a severe trauma to the testicles.

I'd reform it by doing what's best for the health service, not listening to whinging from locals. I'd research other nations of a comparative size to Ireland and see what works for them.

I'd try to get cross party support for this long term plan so that if after the next election I'm out the plan will remain in place no matter who's in charge. Or a binding agreement from the other main parties. Ireland's myopic election promises ruin any chance we have of reform. No one plans long term,

Rumpy Pumpy

Calahonda52 wrote: »

National debt at 200Bn and borrowing 1 mill a day still, before the USC cuts next year add another 1 mill a day to the ND.

I sense you are trolling so enough said.

I'm not trolling. Like racist, it's a word that has lost all meaning these days.
That said, it's good to see you so concerned about our borrowing and debt. It's unsustainable. What do you think the Government should trim the budget of to get things under control? Heakrh, education, social welfare, infrastructure?

VinLieger

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

I'm not trolling. Like racist, it's a word that has lost all meaning these days.
That said, it's good to see you so concerned about our borrowing and debt. It's unsustainable. What do you think the Government should trim the budget of to get things under control? Heakrh, education, social welfare, infrastructure?

Don't cut anything, keep the USC and get people who refuse to pay their way to start paying tax and both the top and bottom of the tax bracket, im tired of sitting in the middle and having my pay packet raped for every new fvcking crisis that comes along.

Problem with that is theres no way any politician would get elected by idiotic Irish electorate. People talk about politicians not planning for the future? They are never asked to by the people voting for them as every 7 years its a case of going to peoples doors and promising them the sun moon and stars for the next 7, no voter really cares when it comes to elections about the next 14 or the next 21 years cus we are all too god damn selfish.

weldoninhio

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

I'm not trolling. Like racist, it's a word that has lost all meaning these days.
That said, it's good to see you so concerned about our borrowing and debt. It's unsustainable. What do you think the Government should trim the budget of to get things under control? Heakrh, education, social welfare, infrastructure?

Well we could save €640m with the stroke of a pen.

Yourself isit

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

How would you reform the health service? Lots of extremely capable ministers backed up by a hard working crew of civil servants have tried.

The reality is that gombeens down the country feel emotionally attached to the useless hospital in their dying backwater regional town. We've far too many hospitals like that. Look at the uproar in Roscommon when they went to close the a and e there. I'd rather sew back on my own bollocks than go there for treatment there in the event of a severe trauma to the testicles.

That doesn't really explain A&E failures in Dublin.

whisky_galore

weldoninhio wrote: »

I thought this thread was about Ireland, not Arabia, Africa and Asia??

Calling Ireland a 'corrupt cesspit' is hyperbole tbf compared to other places.

GreenFolder2

Yourself isit wrote: »

That doesn't really explain A&E failures in Dublin.

A&E is failing in the cities big time. The problem is we're not funding adequate primary care and local clinics etc which is resulting in many non serious emergencies in A&E. Also the waiting lists are so long that you've very sick people turning up in A&E who should have been admitted to hospital for treatment via other channels.

On top of that Ireland has a major issue with alcohol fueled injuries at weekends that doesn't happen in most other places (the UK is similar in places). These lead to a futher stretch of resources.

A&E is also underfunded in urban areas when you look at how rapidly their hinterlands grew vs how health infrastructure didn't really expand at the same rate.

Health is funded slightly more heavily than the UK here but it's not nearly as well funded as some of the northern European countries which likely have similar salary costs to Ireland. Comparing with Spain and Italy etc forgets that people are paid less and living costs are genuinely lower.

RoboRat

The grass is always greener on the other side so be careful what you wish for.

Anyhow, politics is only the tip of the iceberg. Even if we had the cleanest and most diligent politicians, we would still be in pretty much the same boat.

The political system ensures politicians always have one eye on the next election so therefore are looking after local interests that will get them elected next time. If they don't look after their constituency, they wont get elected and this is why the likes of Lowry and the Healy Rae's get elected time and time again. How this is resolved, I don't know but perhaps local issues should only be dealt with by local councils and national politicians cannot have a hand in local issues... or that we just go for a party only system.

The second and bigger issue is that politicians are only really figure heads. The civil service are the real power brokers and they are not elected. A politician can ask for reform or change but if the civil service don't like the proposal, it doesn't happen. The government's hands are tied in regards to the civil service as if they rattle the cage, the unions step in. It's also very hard to remove someone from a position, especially the higher you go. In a lot of cases, promotions are based off duration of service rather than actual ability so the people at the top are institutionalised into a train of thought.

I am not saying that the civil service is rotten and that all workers are inept, there are many many great workers and being honest, people who have the talent and ability are being overlooked for those who are there longer.

I think that the civil service needs to be reformed but to do so would only cause the unions to step in so realistically there would be many years of subtle changes to the system to allow the government to actually do something. This in itself is near impossible when the changes that need to be executed will be done by the people to whom these changes are going to directly affect... you are basically asking them to make a noose for their own necks.

The other option is to rip the band aid off and hope that we don't bleed out, which is a very real risk.

In a perfect world the civil service would be run like a private sector company and people are held accountable for their position and actions, perhaps the top level could also be elected to their positions but this isn't a perfect world.

Edited to add, I think the last few governments have been working on a process of removing the power from the civil service with the selling off or privatisation / semi privatisation or key industries such as transport, power, banks etc. I can see this continuing to happen until they are in a position where they can make the changes without the fear of the country being crippled or being held to ransom.

AnGaelach

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'd reform it by doing what's best for the health service, not listening to whinging from locals. I'd research other nations of a comparative size to Ireland and see what works for them.

How will you implement it when your entire backbench is willing to revolt to protect their local interests?

weldoninhio wrote: »

I'd try to get cross party support for this long term plan so that if after the next election I'm out the plan will remain in place no matter who's in charge. Or a binding agreement from the other main parties. Ireland's myopic election promises ruin any chance we have of reform. No one plans long term,

You wouldn't get cross-party support though because restoring the amenities you just cut would be what everyone campaigns on. Even if you did magically manage to pull it off, you're just going to get everyone voting for quacks like the fúcking AAA-PBP.

All you'd have done is driven your own party into the ground, and maybe taken a few other parties with you.

FutureGuy

Johnboner wrote: »

Why most of us are satisfied with the current situation. I mean healthcare, housing, homeless, roads etc. I don't understand why so many people just accept the situation and dismiss any attempt to change by just saying where will you get the money or that there is nothing that can be done! but that is so wrong, people that achieve great things are the people who say how can we improve this? And work towards the goals instead of just giving up and accepting the situation. I will never understand this, why we as a nation do not want changes to happen or just give some excuse as to why it cannot be done, when we should be saying how it can be done. Just disappointed with the current situation in our country and that nothing is being done, same situation in France would likely cause rioting. For people saying that it is unreasonable please visit other European countries and have a look for yourself. We should be constantly looking to improve instead of just accepting the situation. Maybe that is in our culture so people will not understand me and will try to subtly insult me in various ways instead of giving arguments.

How dare you.

How utterly dare you.

We bitch about it on social media but then pop out to the Chinese takeaway before X-Factor starts.

weldoninhio

AnGaelach wrote: »

How will you implement it when your entire backbench is willing to revolt to protect their local interests?



You wouldn't get cross-party support though because restoring the amenities you just cut would be what everyone campaigns on. Even if you did magically manage to pull it off, you're just going to get everyone voting for quacks like the fúcking AAA-PBP.

All you'd have done is driven your own party into the ground, and maybe taken a few other parties with you.

I'd ban TDs from getting involved in local matters, with large fines to their party for anyone caught meddling. They are elected to run the country, councillors are there to look after local issues.

If the fine is not paid, it should come out of the canvassing budget in the next election. Or in extreme cases, be banned from running for election.

weldoninhio

AnGaelach wrote: »

You wouldn't get cross-party support though because restoring the amenities you just cut would be what everyone campaigns on. Even if you did magically manage to pull it off, you're just going to get everyone voting for quacks like the fúcking AAA-PBP.

All you'd have done is driven your own party into the ground, and maybe taken a few other parties with you.

And after a few months of AAA-PBP people would see that they were quacks and would maybe see the value in long term planning and reform.