Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Wibbs · 13-12-2016 08:17PM

neonsofa wrote: »

The post was, and still is, lost on me. Why do you care that she posts about a pair of earrings? What bearing does it have on her views on feminism?

My take too TBH. These days and especially in the Irish meeeedia which is more incestuous than an Arkansas hill farm, attention seeking and marketing give each other a reach around to promote products. As you said it has feck all to do with her political stance.

Like her "feminism" it's just another bauble on the xmas tree of her relentless ego and self promotion. Which is working very well too. Being a saint and scribe in the Holy Church of the Perpetual Victim is one thing, but even better if you look faaaabulous daaahling while doing so.

Wibbs · 13-12-2016 08:25PM

Widdershins wrote: »

She has referred to her own privilege in the past, as a white woman.

Well even the most blinkered and self obsessed of her kind if they're possessed of any intelligence must at some point acknowledge their level of privilege, or look even more ridiculous. Well to some degree anyway.

A middle class from good GAAAA stock educated straight White Irish woman is damn near a protected species in the society she finds herself in. And her own witterings on her life show this time and time again. That's the hideous irony of her nonsense. By pretty much every metric her demographic(or is that emographic) is, outside of a tiny group of power brokers demonstrably about the best off in Irish society.

Widdershins · 13-12-2016 08:40PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Well even the most blinkered and self obsessed of her kind if they're possessed of any intelligence must at some point acknowledge their level of privilege, or look even more ridiculous. Well to some degree anyway.

A middle class from good GAAAA stock educated straight White Irish woman is damn near a protected species in the society she finds herself in. And her own witterings on her life show this time and time again. That's the hideous irony of her nonsense. By pretty much every metric her demographic(or is that emographic) is, outside of a tiny group of power brokers demonstrably about the best off in Irish society.

On reflection I think she was actually speaking for Ireland in general.

If you recognise you're privileged, why wouldn't you use that power and opportunity to help those seriously worse off?

As far as I'm concerned, she squanders it.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 08:46PM

Why is rape as a crime near par with murder? Because it is so traumatic to women to be raped. Why is it so traumatic for a woman to be raped? It's because women base their identities on their sexual power over men. The modern ego has become narcissisticly based, meaning it is addicted to more attention than it can reasonably get. And on the female side this manifests as an obsession with appearing sexually attractive. This sends out signals to men, it is a form of teasing, not that there's anything wrong as in accountably in the legal sense with them dressing or acting the way they wish, but I wish we could have the needed discussion on these matters from a deeper level taking account the fact that the western culture and psyche is very disintegrated and has an excessive fixation with sexuality, taking both the female and male perspectives into account rather than merely the female.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 09:01PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Well even the most blinkered and self obsessed of her kind if they're possessed of any intelligence must at some point acknowledge their level of privilege, or look even more ridiculous. Well to some degree anyway.

A middle class from good GAAAA stock educated straight White Irish woman is damn near a protected species in the society she finds herself in. And her own witterings on her life show this time and time again. That's the hideous irony of her nonsense. By pretty much every metric her demographic(or is that emographic) is, outside of a tiny group of power brokers demonstrably about the best off in Irish society.

In our culture and those similar to it - where (increasingly) the values are based on the drive for personal power, a certain flavor of woman could be given a mansion made of gold and a tower of Ferrero Rochers dwarfing the pyramid of giza and still be a feminist. As long as the space between their legs lacks an outward genital component they will always be utterly envious. Funny thing is the western male is in actual fact profoundly alienated and not in any state to be jelous of. But the female cannot recognise this because she inherently believes in the facade of "confidence" the western male puts on when really his ego, beyond the most superficial level, is in a profoundly weak state.

me_right_one · 13-12-2016 09:03PM

RonFan wrote: »

Why is rape as a crime near par with murder? Because it is so traumatic to women to be raped. Why is it so traumatic for a woman to be raped? It's because women base their identities on their sexual power over men. The modern ego has become narcissisticly based, meaning it is addicted to more attention than it can reasonably get. And on the female side this manifests as an obsession with appearing sexually attractive. This sends out signals to men, it is a form of teasing, not that there's anything wrong as in accountably in the legal sense with them dressing or acting the way they wish, but I wish we could have the needed discussion on these matters from a deeper level taking account the fact that the western culture and psyche is very disintegrated and has an excessive fixation with sexuality, taking both the female and male perspectives into account rather than merely the female.

I agree with some of your post about western society, but I'm not so sure about that bit in bold. As a man, I would not like someone with an unfair physical advantage to kick the **** out of me, and then violate my arse for their own gratification.

Worse still would be the fact that I could get AIDS, or if I was a woman, have the most precious possession I own - my ability to create life with someone I love - stolen from me.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 09:05PM

me_right_one wrote: »

I agree with some of your post about western society, but I'm not so sure about that bit in bold. As a man, I would not like someone with an unfair physical advantage to kick the **** out of me, and then violate my arse for their own gratification.

Worse still would be the fact that I could get AIDS, or if I was a woman, have the most precious possession I own - my ability to create life with someone I love - stolen from me.

What has it got to do with the portion in bold though? Unless you highlighted the wrong bit.

ivytwine · 13-12-2016 09:06PM

RonFan wrote: »

Why is rape as a crime near par with murder? Because it is so traumatic to women to be raped. Why is it so traumatic for a woman to be raped? It's because women base their identities on their sexual power over men. The modern ego has become narcissisticly based, meaning it is addicted to more attention than it can reasonably get. And on the female side this manifests as an obsession with appearing sexually attractive. This sends out signals to men, it is a form of teasing, not that there's anything wrong as in accountably in the legal sense with them dressing or acting the way they wish, but I wish we could have the needed discussion on these matters from a deeper level taking account the fact that the western culture and psyche is very disintegrated and has an excessive fixation with sexuality, taking both the female and male perspectives into account rather than merely the female.

Well that's just nonsense. Rape is traumatic because it's a violent invasion of your personal and most intimate space, and women are not the only victims of rape. Male victims suffer an equal level of trauma. Google the current scandal in British football for some testimony from male victims. Where do child victims fit into this paradigm? Rape is also not just a western phenomenon, and no less traumatic for those victims either.

On Louise and her privilege... part of me really detests the concept of privilege, or at least how it's used in current discourse. People suffer regardless of their social background, but it is helpful to be aware of the things you're not even aware of, if you know what I mean.

When Louise O'Neill tweets on the situation in the US she at least has some knowledge of America, having lived there. I personally haven't a clue what it's like. even tiny things like doing the New York Times crossword hammers home how much I don't know about America. But does she really know what it's like to be a black American man, someone much lower down the "privilege" ladder?

I don't think that there is no space for Irish people to speak on the situation in the US, but to blindly import the terminology from a broken society with vastly different social structures to our own, as many on the left have begun to do, is more than a little redundant.

I think what really annoys me about the current discourse is, as I said, the lack of nuance. People are gloriously complicated and every single one of us has more layers and depth than our gender, race etc. A silly example: Kanye West, a mentally ill black man originally from an underprivileged background, hanging out with Trump. What label shall we stick on him?

RonFan · 13-12-2016 09:15PM

ivytwine wrote: »

Well that's just nonsense. Rape is traumatic because it's a violent invasion of your personal and most intimate space, and women are not the only victims of rape. Male victims suffer an equal level of trauma. Google the current scandal in British football for some testimony from male victims. Where do child victims fit into this paradigm? Rape is also not just a western phenomenon, and no less traumatic for those victims either.

Violent invasion of your personal and most intimate space? Is sex in general a "violation" of that space? There is little difference physically between most cases of rape and usual sexual intercourse, why the profound difference in women's psychological reaction between the two? How come men don't get traumatized in the case of women forcing sex with them against their will? Isn't it also a violation of their personal space? Can you give a rational answer to these? No you can't. The truth is, the idea of rape being a most heinous crime and the idea that sexual activity should be restricted, go hand in hand. When you remove the latter notion in society, the former notion also starts crumbling away and much confusion and chaos results as we're seeing now and will be increasingly seeing as time progresses.

Males suffer an equal level of trauma from being raped by the same sex, not the opposite sex as with females. It's different.

Widdershins · 13-12-2016 09:25PM

RonFan wrote: »

Violent invasion of your personal and most intimate space? Is sex in general a "violation" of that space? There is little difference physically between most cases of rape and usual sexual intercourse, why the profound difference in women's psychological reaction between the two? How come men don't get traumatized in the case of women forcing sex with them against their will? Isn't it also a violation of their personal space? Can you give a rational answer to these? No you can't. The truth is, the idea of rape being a most heinous crime and the idea that sexual activity should be restricted, go hand in hand. When you remove the latter notion in society, the former notion also starts crumbling away and much confusion and chaos results as we're seeing now and will be increasingly seeing as time progresses.

Males suffer an equal level of trauma from being raped by the same sex, not the opposite sex as with females. It's different.

Men do get traumatised by women forcing sex with them against their will from what I've read. However the fact of being overpowered might be more common with womens rapes and that is a factor.
Additionally, sex could be unpleasantly painful if forced, unlike consensual sex. And rapists generally don't tend to be gentle.

neonsofa · 13-12-2016 09:29PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Men do get traumatised by women forcing sex with them against their will from what I've read. However the fact of being overpowered might be more common with womens rapes and that is a factor.
Additionally, sex could be unpleasantly painful if forced, unlike consensual sex. And rapists generally don't tend to be gentle.

Exactly.
Also consensual sex by its very nature is something they willingly engage in and want. I mean if you were to go by the logic above you could say why is robbing money so bad if the person was just going to spend it anyway, they regularly shop and pay bills etc. so someone just taking the money from them instead is not much different really. Even that analogy is insulting but you get the drift.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 09:29PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Men do get traumatised by women forcing sex with them against their will from what I've read. However the fact of being overpowered might be more common with womens rapes and that is a factor.
Additionally, sex could be unpleasantly painful if forced, unlike consensual sex. And rapists generally don't tend to be gentle.

You're making the claim that the psychological effects on a fully developed adult male from being forced into intercourse by a female (in the incredibly unlikely case that'd occur) is in anyway whatsoever comparable to those of a fully developed adult female from being forced into intercourse by a male? If so that is ridiculous nonsense. The fact of being over powered and the sex being painful? These too could be applied to cases of consensual sex where there is no resulting trauma, and in any case in reality have very little to nothing to do with it.

ivytwine · 13-12-2016 09:33PM

RonFan wrote: »

Violent invasion of your personal and most intimate space? Is sex in general a "violation" of that space? There is little difference physically between most cases of rape and usual sexual intercourse, why the profound difference in women's psychological reaction between the two? How come men don't get traumatized in the case of women forcing sex with them against their will, yet women do in the case of men? Can you give a rational answer? No you can't. The truth is, the idea of rape being a most heinous crime and the idea that sexual activity should be restricted, go hand in hand. When you remove the latter notion in society, the former notion also starts crumbling away and much confusion and chaos results as we're seeing now and will be increasingly seeing as time progresses.

Males suffer an equal level of trauma from being raped by the same sex, not the opposite sex as with females. It's different.

of course it's not logical. Humans are incapable of logic in this regard because we attach greater meaning to sex than other animals. So I will give you that, but it's a pointless argument. We're not going to ever be able to remove that emotional component precisely because we are different from other animals.

The difference between rape and sex is desire on part of both parties. I know, basic or what. Don't tell me if your sister or mother was raped you'd sit there and say "ah sure there's no difference between this and you having sex with your boyfriend/husband."

It's also a violent crime, often with physical beating attached. I'm with the experts who say it's about power and control, not sex. That's why armies rape enemy civilians, why children are often the biggest victims.

Actually you're not right on female on male abuse. It's more common than you'd think, and traumatic too.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11899484/Female-paedophiles-Why-women-sexually-abuse-children.html

http://kalimunro.com/wp/articles-info/sexual-emotional-abuse/male-sexual-abuse-victims-of-female-perpetrators

https://1in6.org/family-and-friends/myths/

RonFan · 13-12-2016 09:33PM

neonsofa wrote: »

Exactly.
Also consensual sex by its very nature is something they willingly engage in and want. I mean if you were to go by the logic above you could say why is robbing money so bad if the person was just going to spend it anyway, they regularly shop and pay bills etc. so someone just taking the money from them instead is not much different really. Even that analogy is insulting but you get the drift.

No, that isn't equivalent to it at all. Can you give a rational answer to why rape is so traumatic to women? You can't. There is an answer but it is complex and to do with depth psychology. If you did understand why rape is so traumatic to women, you would also understand why promiscuity is immoral. The west is in sexual crazy mode and in denial about the fact. The problem of "rape culture" is a result of this and nothing else.

ivytwine · 13-12-2016 09:34PM

RonFan wrote: »

You're making the claim that the psychological effects on a fully developed adult male from being forced into intercourse by a female (in the incredibly unlikely case that'd occur) is in anyway whatsoever comparable to those of a fully developed adult female from being forced into intercourse by a male? If so that is ridiculous nonsense. The fact of being over powered and the sex being painful? These too could be applied to cases of consensual sex where there is no resulting trauma, and in any case in reality have very little to nothing to do with it.

Mate I've been raped. It physically ****ing hurts.

Actually to give some additional detail... if you know anything about female anatomy you'll know why consensual sex and rape are oceans apart, and one hurts, and the other doesn't.

midnight city · 13-12-2016 09:39PM

RonFan wrote: »

No, that isn't equivalent to it at all. Can you give a rational answer to why rape is so traumatic to women? You can't. There is an answer but it is complex and to do with depth psychology. If you did understand why rape is so traumatic to women, you would also understand why promiscuity is immoral. The west is in sexual crazy mode and in denial about the fact. The problem of "rape culture" is a result of this and nothing else.

Ron what do you know about rape? Are you just spouting some pseudo-psychology you dreamed up in your head.

Widdershins · 13-12-2016 09:39PM

RonFan wrote: »

You're making the claim that the psychological effects on a fully developed adult male from being forced into intercourse by a female (in the incredibly unlikely case that'd occur) is in anyway whatsoever comparable to those of a fully developed adult female from being forced into intercourse by a male? If so that is ridiculous nonsense. The fact of being over powered and the sex being painful? These too could be applied to cases of consensual sex where there is no resulting trauma, and in any case in reality have very little to nothing to do with it.

I'm a bit confused. Originally you were saying that the trauma of rape is about the removal of a woman's tool of control, her sexuality. I don't agree.
I cannot comment on or compare the experience of male and female rape victims as I'm female and not qualified to describe the male experience. But I have read about the male experience and based on that I believe that it is psychologically disturbing for men.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 09:40PM

ivytwine wrote: »

of course it's not logical. Humans are incapable of logic in this regard because we attach greater meaning to sex than other animals. So I will give you that, but it's a pointless argument. We're not going to ever be able to remove that emotional component precisely because we are different from other animals.

The difference between rape and sex is desire on part of both parties. I know, basic or what. Don't tell me if your sister or mother was raped you'd sit there and say "ah sure there's no difference between this and you having sex with your boyfriend/husband."

It's also a violent crime, often with physical beating attached. I'm with the experts who say it's about power and control, not sex. That's why armies rape enemy civilians, why children are often the biggest victims.

Actually you're not right on female on male abuse. It's more common than you'd think, and traumatic too.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11899484/Female-paedophiles-Why-women-sexually-abuse-children.html

http://kalimunro.com/wp/articles-info/sexual-emotional-abuse/male-sexual-abuse-victims-of-female-perpetrators

https://1in6.org/family-and-friends/myths/

We attatch greater meaning to sex yes, and that is why promiscuity is dysfunctional. This is the only point I am trying to make. I agree that rape is a most heinous crime, but this does not match up with the notion of sex as something trivial which has become common sense to westerners. All I originally said was I wish we could have the deeper conversation needed about these issues but it's not possible because we have such ignorance about the nature of sex.

Could you elaborate about "rape being about power and control not sex"?

Female on ADULT male rape (when it rarely happens) is not comparable whatsoever in terms of trauma than the reverse. That is a basic fact you cannot be in denial about without being utterly deluded

Widdershins · 13-12-2016 09:41PM

RonFan wrote: »

No, that isn't equivalent to it at all. Can you give a rational answer to why rape is so traumatic to women? You can't. There is an answer but it is complex and to do with depth psychology. If you did understand why rape is so traumatic to women, you would also understand why promiscuity is immoral. The west is in sexual crazy mode and in denial about the fact. The problem of "rape culture" is a result of this and nothing else.

That was a rational answer though.

This brings to mind Occam's Razor. Why skip over the obvious and more or less unanimous answer to look for some obscure and unlikely reasons for the resultant trauma from rape?

RonFan · 13-12-2016 09:43PM

Widdershins wrote: »

I'm a bit confused. Originally you were saying that the trauma of rape is about the removal of a woman's tool of control, her sexuality. I don't agree..

What are you confused about?

If you don't agree with that interpretation, can you give an answer as to why rape traumatises women so much? It's perfectly fine to say "I don't know" you know. Just so far you haven't answered the question.

Widdershins · 13-12-2016 09:43PM

RonFan wrote: »

We attatch greater meaning to sex yes, and that is why promiscuity is dysfunctional. This is the only point I am trying to make. I agree that rape is a most heinous crime, but this does not match up with the notion of sex as something trivial which has become common sense to westerners. All I originally said was I wish we could have the deeper conversation needed about these issues but it's not possible because we have such ignorance about the nature of sex.

Could you elaborate about "rape being about power and control not sex"?

Female on ADULT male rape (when it rarely happens) is not comparable whatsoever in terms of trauma than the reverse. That is a basic fact you cannot be in denial about without being utterly deluded

Are you saying that consensual sex is portrayed as not a big deal so nonconsexual sex shouldn't be that much of an issue?

RonFan · 13-12-2016 09:44PM

Widdershins wrote: »

That was a rational answer though.

This brings to mind Occam's Razor. Why skip over the obvious and more or less unanimous answer to look for some obscure and unlikely reasons for the resultant trauma from rape?

Your answer was debunked by the fact female on male rape is so significantly less traumatic than the reverse. It's fine to say you don't know why, but you should admit you don't know why.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 09:45PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Are you saying that consensual sex is portrayed as not a big deal so nonconsexual sex shouldn't be that much of an issue?

No I am saying exactly the reverse. Nonconsensual sex is a big issue and this, along with various other complex factors, is why promiscuity is inherently dysfunctional. The general population of society in the west have a much overly trivial view of sex, and this tends not to be realised and is leading to immense dysfuntion, that is the point I'm making.

Widdershins · 13-12-2016 09:47PM

RonFan wrote: »

What are you confused about?

If you don't agree with that interpretation, can you give an answer as to why rape traumatises women so much? It's perfectly fine to say "I don't know" you know. Just so far you haven't answered the question.

I have already answered. Psychologically and physically being overpowered and forced to allow someone to penetrate your body is clearly the kind of thing that would make someone feel traumatised. People obviously view their bodies as private and off limits to others with the exception of those they consent to share their body with. That consent is very meaningful and important to people. It also physically hurts, and causes the fear of further worried such as pregnancy and disease.

Widdershins · 13-12-2016 09:48PM

RonFan wrote: »

No I am saying exactly the reverse. Nonconsensual sex is a big issue and this, along with various other complex factors, is why promiscuity is inherently dysfunctional. The general population of society in the west have a much overly trivial view of sex, and this tends not to be realised and is leading to immense dysfuntion, that is the point I'm making.

While I think I agree with both points I can't see the connection between them, try as I might.

What about the societal view of sex in the past, though?

Widdershins · 13-12-2016 09:52PM

RonFan wrote: »

Your answer was debunked by the fact female on male rape is so significantly less traumatic than the reverse. It's fine to say you don't know why, but you should admit you don't know why.

How? Nobody even knows if it is less traumatic. It probably happens in very different situations and environments and I suspect the element of brute force is absent in some female on male rapes, so in those cases both physical and psychological trauma could be lower.

I don't see how you could come to that conclusion based on your view that there are some rapes that leave more of a scar than others..clearly the effect on a man doesn't affect how a woman is affected and vice versa..let alone debunk the reasons behind the trauma, whatever the level, in either case

ivytwine · 13-12-2016 09:56PM

RonFan wrote: »

We attatch greater meaning to sex yes, and that is why promiscuity is dysfunctional. This is the only point I am trying to make. I agree that rape is a most heinous crime, but this does not match up with the notion of sex as something trivial which has become common sense to westerners. All I originally said was I wish we could have the deeper conversation needed about these issues but it's not possible because we have such ignorance about the nature of sex.

Could you elaborate about "rape being about power and control not sex"?

Female on ADULT male rape (when it rarely happens) is not comparable whatsoever in terms of trauma than the reverse. That is a basic fact you cannot be in denial about without being utterly deluded

I'm not going to concede that because I believe that it's not really helpful to men who have been abused. I obviously can't tell you what a man who's been through that feels, but I'm sure it's not nice. I believe that men are very much badly served by the current discourse. Ten years ago female on male domestic violence was a joke, now it's finally being recognised, and I'm sure things will change there.

I'd agree with you on western society if there was any evidence that rape didn't occur in society where promiscuity is frowned upon. The fact is it that happens everywhere. And just because you don't have to marry to have sex now, or casual sex is more common, doesn't mean it has completely lost its allure or meaning to people, or that an individual can't view a violation as a personal tragedy. It's all about choice and autonomy, which is taken away. Bad analogy but imagine you really liked doughnuts, had them every chance you got, and then one day someone grabbed you and force fed you doughnuts til you puked.

On the power thing... well for most normal people good sex is about mutual pleasure. There's none of that in rape. In fact you are terrorising someone and getting a kick out of that. The most potent example I can think of is the Soviet Army in WWII who basically launched a rape campaign against German women. You cannot tell me that was about sex. It was perfunctory, a matter of course humiliation of the enemy: you nazis prized your women so look what we'll do to them.

Even serial offenders like Jimmy Savile were motivated by power. Outside of the offences, he was obsessed with having influence, friends in high places, intimidating enemies etc.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 09:58PM

Widdershins wrote: »

I have already answered. Psychologically and physically being overpowered and forced to allow someone to penetrate your body is clearly the kind of thing that would make someone feel traumatised. People obviously view their bodies as private and off limits to others with the exception of those they consent to share their body with. That consent is very meaningful and important to people. It also physically hurts, and causes the fear of further worried such as pregnancy and disease.

The overpowering factor still does not account for it. The reason for the difference is deeply psychological and hence not easily discernible. But it's our lack of understanding on that level, which leads us to think that the casual view of sex is functional. Time will tell that this is not the case. Younger generations of women coming up in this culture are more and more having a view of 'tease all men, toy with some' and this is what's leading to the problems termed inappropriately as "rape culture". The cultural trends leading to these issues are rapidly increasing and nearing epidemic levels, and you'll see that as time progresses.

I hope you can try and understand I'm coming from a more nuanced position here.

RonFan · 13-12-2016 10:03PM

ivytwine wrote: »

I'm not going to concede that because I believe that it's not really helpful to men who have been abused. I obviously can't tell you what a man who's been through that feels, but I'm sure it's not nice. I believe that men are very much badly served by the current discourse. Ten years ago female on male domestic violence was a joke, now it's finally being recognised, and I'm sure things will change there.

I'd agree with you on western society if there was any evidence that rape didn't occur in society where promiscuity is frowned upon. The fact is it that happens everywhere. And just because you don't have to marry to have sex now, or casual sex is more common, doesn't mean it has completely lost its allure or meaning to people, or that an individual can't view a violation as a personal tragedy. It's all about choice and autonomy, which is taken away. Bad analogy but imagine you really liked doughnuts, had them every chance you got, and then one day someone grabbed you and force fed you doughnuts til you puked.

On the power thing... well for most normal people good sex is about mutual pleasure. There's none of that in rape. In fact you are terrorising someone and getting a kick out of that. The most potent example I can think of is the Soviet Army in WWII who basically launched a rape campaign against German women. You cannot tell me that was about sex. It was perfunctory, a matter of course humiliation of the enemy: you nazis prized your women so look what we'll do to them.

Even serial offenders like Jimmy Savile were motivated by power. Outside of the offences, he was obsessed with having influence, friends in high places, intimidating enemies etc.

I'd be shocked if you honestly thought it's not self evident that heterosexual rape impacts females far more than males. This is just absolute common sense. Of course rape occurs in societies where promiscuity is frowned upon, but that is of the forceful kind in far more incidence. The vast majority of rapes in the west start off as consensual activity (say kissing etc.) which is directly linked to promiscuity being normalised.

Sex is about mutual pleasure? Why then is prostitution so common (and incresingly so)?

neonsofa · 13-12-2016 10:06PM

RonFan wrote: »

The overpowering factor still does not account for it. The reason for the difference is deeply psychological and hence not easily discernible. But it's our lack of understanding on that level, which leads us to think that the casual view of sex is functional. Time will tell that this is not the case. Younger generations of women coming up in this culture are more and more having a view of 'tease all men, toy with some' and this is what's leading to the problems termed inappropriately as "rape culture". The cultural trends leading to these issues are rapidly increasing and nearing epidemic levels, and you'll see that as time progresses.

I hope you can try and understand I'm coming from a more nuanced position here.

But if people/society were to place more "value" on sex generally and were to view sex as a sacred act between only a loving married couple for example, then surely rape would still be traumatic for the victim, given that the once sacred act of love is now reduced to a physical act of pleasure for the rapist. Placing more "value" on sex surely makes rape more traumatic if anything?

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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