neonsofa wrote: » The post was, and still is, lost on me. Why do you care that she posts about a pair of earrings? What bearing does it have on her views on feminism?
Widdershins wrote: » She has referred to her own privilege in the past, as a white woman.
Wibbs wrote: » Well even the most blinkered and self obsessed of her kind if they're possessed of any intelligence must at some point acknowledge their level of privilege, or look even more ridiculous. Well to some degree anyway. A middle class from good GAAAA stock educated straight White Irish woman is damn near a protected species in the society she finds herself in. And her own witterings on her life show this time and time again. That's the hideous irony of her nonsense. By pretty much every metric her demographic(or is that emographic) is, outside of a tiny group of power brokers demonstrably about the best off in Irish society.
RonFan wrote: » Why is rape as a crime near par with murder? Because it is so traumatic to women to be raped. Why is it so traumatic for a woman to be raped? It's because women base their identities on their sexual power over men. The modern ego has become narcissisticly based, meaning it is addicted to more attention than it can reasonably get. And on the female side this manifests as an obsession with appearing sexually attractive. This sends out signals to men, it is a form of teasing, not that there's anything wrong as in accountably in the legal sense with them dressing or acting the way they wish, but I wish we could have the needed discussion on these matters from a deeper level taking account the fact that the western culture and psyche is very disintegrated and has an excessive fixation with sexuality, taking both the female and male perspectives into account rather than merely the female.
me_right_one wrote: » I agree with some of your post about western society, but I'm not so sure about that bit in bold. As a man, I would not like someone with an unfair physical advantage to kick the **** out of me, and then violate my arse for their own gratification. Worse still would be the fact that I could get AIDS, or if I was a woman, have the most precious possession I own - my ability to create life with someone I love - stolen from me.
ivytwine wrote: » Well that's just nonsense. Rape is traumatic because it's a violent invasion of your personal and most intimate space, and women are not the only victims of rape. Male victims suffer an equal level of trauma. Google the current scandal in British football for some testimony from male victims. Where do child victims fit into this paradigm? Rape is also not just a western phenomenon, and no less traumatic for those victims either.
RonFan wrote: » Violent invasion of your personal and most intimate space? Is sex in general a "violation" of that space? There is little difference physically between most cases of rape and usual sexual intercourse, why the profound difference in women's psychological reaction between the two? How come men don't get traumatized in the case of women forcing sex with them against their will? Isn't it also a violation of their personal space? Can you give a rational answer to these? No you can't. The truth is, the idea of rape being a most heinous crime and the idea that sexual activity should be restricted, go hand in hand. When you remove the latter notion in society, the former notion also starts crumbling away and much confusion and chaos results as we're seeing now and will be increasingly seeing as time progresses. Males suffer an equal level of trauma from being raped by the same sex, not the opposite sex as with females. It's different.
Widdershins wrote: » Men do get traumatised by women forcing sex with them against their will from what I've read. However the fact of being overpowered might be more common with womens rapes and that is a factor. Additionally, sex could be unpleasantly painful if forced, unlike consensual sex. And rapists generally don't tend to be gentle.
RonFan wrote: » Violent invasion of your personal and most intimate space? Is sex in general a "violation" of that space? There is little difference physically between most cases of rape and usual sexual intercourse, why the profound difference in women's psychological reaction between the two? How come men don't get traumatized in the case of women forcing sex with them against their will, yet women do in the case of men? Can you give a rational answer? No you can't. The truth is, the idea of rape being a most heinous crime and the idea that sexual activity should be restricted, go hand in hand. When you remove the latter notion in society, the former notion also starts crumbling away and much confusion and chaos results as we're seeing now and will be increasingly seeing as time progresses. Males suffer an equal level of trauma from being raped by the same sex, not the opposite sex as with females. It's different.
neonsofa wrote: » Exactly. Also consensual sex by its very nature is something they willingly engage in and want. I mean if you were to go by the logic above you could say why is robbing money so bad if the person was just going to spend it anyway, they regularly shop and pay bills etc. so someone just taking the money from them instead is not much different really. Even that analogy is insulting but you get the drift.
RonFan wrote: » You're making the claim that the psychological effects on a fully developed adult male from being forced into intercourse by a female (in the incredibly unlikely case that'd occur) is in anyway whatsoever comparable to those of a fully developed adult female from being forced into intercourse by a male? If so that is ridiculous nonsense. The fact of being over powered and the sex being painful? These too could be applied to cases of consensual sex where there is no resulting trauma, and in any case in reality have very little to nothing to do with it.
RonFan wrote: » No, that isn't equivalent to it at all. Can you give a rational answer to why rape is so traumatic to women? You can't. There is an answer but it is complex and to do with depth psychology. If you did understand why rape is so traumatic to women, you would also understand why promiscuity is immoral. The west is in sexual crazy mode and in denial about the fact. The problem of "rape culture" is a result of this and nothing else.
ivytwine wrote: » of course it's not logical. Humans are incapable of logic in this regard because we attach greater meaning to sex than other animals. So I will give you that, but it's a pointless argument. We're not going to ever be able to remove that emotional component precisely because we are different from other animals. The difference between rape and sex is desire on part of both parties. I know, basic or what. Don't tell me if your sister or mother was raped you'd sit there and say "ah sure there's no difference between this and you having sex with your boyfriend/husband." It's also a violent crime, often with physical beating attached. I'm with the experts who say it's about power and control, not sex. That's why armies rape enemy civilians, why children are often the biggest victims. Actually you're not right on female on male abuse. It's more common than you'd think, and traumatic too.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11899484/Female-paedophiles-Why-women-sexually-abuse-children.htmlhttp://kalimunro.com/wp/articles-info/sexual-emotional-abuse/male-sexual-abuse-victims-of-female-perpetratorshttps://1in6.org/family-and-friends/myths/
Widdershins wrote: » I'm a bit confused. Originally you were saying that the trauma of rape is about the removal of a woman's tool of control, her sexuality. I don't agree..
RonFan wrote: » We attatch greater meaning to sex yes, and that is why promiscuity is dysfunctional. This is the only point I am trying to make. I agree that rape is a most heinous crime, but this does not match up with the notion of sex as something trivial which has become common sense to westerners. All I originally said was I wish we could have the deeper conversation needed about these issues but it's not possible because we have such ignorance about the nature of sex. Could you elaborate about "rape being about power and control not sex"? Female on ADULT male rape (when it rarely happens) is not comparable whatsoever in terms of trauma than the reverse. That is a basic fact you cannot be in denial about without being utterly deluded
Widdershins wrote: » That was a rational answer though. This brings to mind Occam's Razor. Why skip over the obvious and more or less unanimous answer to look for some obscure and unlikely reasons for the resultant trauma from rape?
Widdershins wrote: » Are you saying that consensual sex is portrayed as not a big deal so nonconsexual sex shouldn't be that much of an issue?
RonFan wrote: » What are you confused about? If you don't agree with that interpretation, can you give an answer as to why rape traumatises women so much? It's perfectly fine to say "I don't know" you know. Just so far you haven't answered the question.
RonFan wrote: » No I am saying exactly the reverse. Nonconsensual sex is a big issue and this, along with various other complex factors, is why promiscuity is inherently dysfunctional. The general population of society in the west have a much overly trivial view of sex, and this tends not to be realised and is leading to immense dysfuntion, that is the point I'm making.
RonFan wrote: » Your answer was debunked by the fact female on male rape is so significantly less traumatic than the reverse. It's fine to say you don't know why, but you should admit you don't know why.
Widdershins wrote: » I have already answered. Psychologically and physically being overpowered and forced to allow someone to penetrate your body is clearly the kind of thing that would make someone feel traumatised. People obviously view their bodies as private and off limits to others with the exception of those they consent to share their body with. That consent is very meaningful and important to people. It also physically hurts, and causes the fear of further worried such as pregnancy and disease.
ivytwine wrote: » I'm not going to concede that because I believe that it's not really helpful to men who have been abused. I obviously can't tell you what a man who's been through that feels, but I'm sure it's not nice. I believe that men are very much badly served by the current discourse. Ten years ago female on male domestic violence was a joke, now it's finally being recognised, and I'm sure things will change there. I'd agree with you on western society if there was any evidence that rape didn't occur in society where promiscuity is frowned upon. The fact is it that happens everywhere. And just because you don't have to marry to have sex now, or casual sex is more common, doesn't mean it has completely lost its allure or meaning to people, or that an individual can't view a violation as a personal tragedy. It's all about choice and autonomy, which is taken away. Bad analogy but imagine you really liked doughnuts, had them every chance you got, and then one day someone grabbed you and force fed you doughnuts til you puked. On the power thing... well for most normal people good sex is about mutual pleasure. There's none of that in rape. In fact you are terrorising someone and getting a kick out of that. The most potent example I can think of is the Soviet Army in WWII who basically launched a rape campaign against German women. You cannot tell me that was about sex. It was perfunctory, a matter of course humiliation of the enemy: you nazis prized your women so look what we'll do to them. Even serial offenders like Jimmy Savile were motivated by power. Outside of the offences, he was obsessed with having influence, friends in high places, intimidating enemies etc.
RonFan wrote: » The overpowering factor still does not account for it. The reason for the difference is deeply psychological and hence not easily discernible. But it's our lack of understanding on that level, which leads us to think that the casual view of sex is functional. Time will tell that this is not the case. Younger generations of women coming up in this culture are more and more having a view of 'tease all men, toy with some' and this is what's leading to the problems termed inappropriately as "rape culture". The cultural trends leading to these issues are rapidly increasing and nearing epidemic levels, and you'll see that as time progresses. I hope you can try and understand I'm coming from a more nuanced position here.
