why the hatred?

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Where did you discover this absolute gem of info? Strength is meaningless if your body is broken and you can't even do the movements.

What's the point of squatting 3x bw if you can only 1/4 squat?

The amount of lads I saw in my old gym with f*cked up backs and shoulders was incredible, and imo it was entirely down to not learning the movements properly and not emphasising stretching enough.




As someone who started with the traditional 'bro' exercises I wish I'd made time in the beginning to get mobile as it would've saved a lot of hassle.

Unless you grow up in the 3rd world where squatting is a natural position, or you're naturally flexible, most people will have a lot of trouble deadlifting and squatting with a neutral spine, having a good front rack position (not holding the bar 3" off your clavicle while your wrists explode).

These things should be prioritised in the beginning as unlearning and relearning how to lift after you've endured injury after injury will be costly time-wise and money-wise.



They're only bs presumably because you can't do them.

Quite frankly I'm well past the stage of being impressed by aesthetic someone is. Now that I follow weightlifting, I see lads who'd pass for Rob Lipsett-phyisque models snatching 2x bw.

Workouts involving curls, shoulder raises, leg extensions etc. are boring as ****.

Strength training is getting strong over an effective range of motion while performing the movement correctly. Doing this correctly will not result in injury. Getting a 140kg squat as a novice over a 2-3 month period is far more important than any functional movement nonsense out there.

Unless you have insanely tight hamstrings and severe thoracic kyphosis, "mobility" should not interfere with correctly deadlifting. The same applies to squatting. Mobility is entirely overrated. Certain people with severe limitations should invest time in it, but most people should focus purely on squatting and deadlifting correctly.

What does the physique of an athlete have to do with weightlifting?

100% agree bro splits are useless as hell.

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Well how can you break squat PR's if you can't squat? That was my point. Some people just can't squat to depth the first day they go in the gym, so slapping a ton of weight on the bar and hoping for the best will do **** all good.



Again, a lot of people can't do these movements the first day in the gym; I saw lads in the gym for months who still couldn't do them right. Learning positional awareness (i.e. Tight back, not letting hips shoot up after initiating the pull) takes time, and again, slapping a ton of weight on the bar the first day in the gym will do nobody any good.

My housemate is looking for me to teach him the basic lifts at the moment, and it wasn't until I showed him a photo of his back position while deadlifting, that he realised his hips were sky-high and his back was completely rounded.

These movements are relatively simple once you know what you're doing, but that's easier said than done.

The only people who cant squat to depth the first day they walk into the gym are elderly people or people with ailments as I've already described. Most people can squat to depth provided they have the right cues, a correct coach and video tape themselves. I never said you slap a shít tonne of weight onto the bar. The whole approach is to nail your form down with the bar, increase the weight until it becomes a bit challenging, perform 3x5. Then increase the weight each session.

The only reason that it's difficult atm to squat to depth for novices is because of the horrific state the industry is in. It prioritises machines, functional movement, bodybuilding crap etc etc. If people just focused on squatting and deadlifting correctly and got strong, there would be few issues. The main problem with it is that it's not profitable from the gym's POV, so they invest in all of this nonsense. Crossfit directly and largely contributes to the disgrace that is the modern fitness industry.

And it's more than just hamstring tightness or inflexibility that limits people being able to depth properly

Connacht2KXX wrote: »

The only people who cant squat to depth the first day they walk into the gym are elderly people or people with ailments as I've already described. Most people can squat to depth provided they have the right cues, a correct coach and video tape themselves. I never said you slap a shít tonne of weight onto the bar. The whole approach is to nail your form down with the bar, increase the weight until it becomes a bit challenging, perform 3x5. Then increase the weight each session.

The only reason that it's difficult atm to squat to depth for novices is because of the horrific state the industry is in. It prioritises machines, functional movement, bodybuilding crap etc etc. If people just focused on squatting and deadlifting correctly and got strong, there would be few issues. The main problem with it is that it's not profitable from the gym's POV, so they invest in all of this nonsense. Crossfit directly and largely contributes to the disgrace that is the modern fitness industry.

Just this morning I watched a friend of mine coach a lady with a brain injury how to squat, he's a crossfit coach.
I see this all the time and I see stupid sh1t also.
You're speaking from a place where I'm going to guess you've never actually coached anyone?

When I started lifting, I was 28, working a desk job, had just completed a marathon and played 5-a-side every week. My mobility up until that point was typical secondary PE stuff (lunging calf stretch, heel to ass quad stretch, etc). I couldn't hit parallel with an empty bar and I couldn't touch my toes with my knees straight.

I'm pretty sure I was somewhat typical of a first-time lifter that many PTs deal with.

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

When I started lifting, I was 28, working a desk job, had just completed a marathon and played 5-a-side every week. My mobility up until that point was typical secondary PE stuff (lunging calf stretch, heel to ass quad stretch, etc). I couldn't hit parallel with an empty bar and I couldn't touch my toes with my knees straight.

I'm pretty sure I was somewhat typical of a first-time lifter that many PTs deal with.

you are 100% right.

Look overall poster Connacht2KXX youve watched a few crossfit videos or heard through the grapevine as to what crossfit is all about and thats clouded your judgement.

Decent crossfit coaches have more in common with what you would like to see more of in gyms than less of so lets all get along and let the results speak for themselves

MightyMandarin wrote: »

There's dickheads everywhere pal. Go to any powerlifting, weightlifting or bodybuilding gym and you'll find some.

Just don't let them alter your general perception of the people who get involved in the sports; it doesn't really do anyone any good, considering how small the community of people who like to lift weights and partake in resistance training is.

exactly - 60% of the population are overweight or obese yet people piss and moan about the best training methods for the 10% that actually need high end coaching

whippet wrote: »

Also .. the abomination that is 'kipping' ... what in the hell is that all about. Shredding your hands and holding out ripped palms like a badge of honour! torn hands are an injury not a sing of achievement

I watched a youtube video a while back of a small crowd in the US who decided to do a "competition", in which they had WOD like segments that included strict pull ups. They were very specific about the strict part as they didn't like the crossfit methodology. The comments afterwards were hilarious as what was and wasn't a "kip", when none of the contestants were really doing strict after the first few. I've been searching for it since but I watch a lot of youtube videos, since it was a good example of why crossfit kips.

Kipping is effectively a product of including body-weight movements into a competitive environment. And it doesn't really come from crossfit, its a natural progression to making the movement easier and it was taken from gymnastics.



If you say do 20 reps of pull ups, people will kip. So either waste your time, or embrace it. But it does make crossfit look stupid in videos and is a easy source for online bashing, adding to its bad reputation in the usual gym bro circles.

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

Not defending what's going on in that video, but I reckon most people watching it didn't realise they're doing the axle clean and jerk, which never looks pretty anyway.

Still, those people look like they shouldn't be allowed anything beyond an empty regular barbell.

Yep, its more of a strong man workout. But its a very clear and obvious example of bad coaching in a crossfit environment. Most people in that video should never have been exposed to that exercise or weight. Its not appropriate to their skill or strength level. It was also a top ranked video for the search term for a long period.


Back to the OP's point, fail videos have always trended well on youtube and "Gym fails" was replaced with "Crossfit Fails" a few years back. As a brand or methodology that's a serious problem but in recent times that has trended back to gym fails..

How many crossfit gyms can you identify in the below videos. That you know are crossfit, not just strength and conditioning gyms, Olympic clubs or people just dicking around in normal gyms or at home. Or competitions that are sponsored by crossfit. Even most Irish competitions are not actual crossfit events and are run by whoever wants to run them and are not restricted to crossfit only branded gyms entering.





I like this one the best, its the OC throwdown. This is from a competition in the US done by a crowd that have nothing to do with crossfit(but aimed towards them) and is pretty much hated by most of the gyms in the US at this point. A games competitor was paralysed with their stupid over the top WODs and another person broke their back. And yet when this event was reported on in the media and by fitness bloggers, it was a crossfit event in which this happened.




There is also(at this point) a pretty strong case that the crossfit band was deliberately damaged through the release of "the Devor study" in 2013. The report claimed that crossfit had a higher rate of injury then other branded sports, which was parroted heavily by the media and bloggers. I read the report, its methodology seemed pretty circumspect. The long and short of it is that crossfit claimed the report was fabricated so that the organisation would not be considered for valuable military fitness contracts over the incumbent NSCA. They sued afterwards and it looks like they are going to win, there seems to be a lot of evidence against the writers of the report and the NSCA to validate crossfits claims. I'd be interested to see what that might cost in the end for the NSCA.


All of this over the years causes the image to suffer. When the conversation crops up in the pub, the topic will tend to be based around a perception rather then a specific and well thought out argument with points and counter points. And most of that perception comes from fragments of news reports, headlines and half watched videos online. Plus the fact that crossfitters never shut up about crossfit.

There have been good points though, its brought a new level of awareness back to gymnastics and Olympic lifting, regardless of them seeming to hate it. I think its the main cause for the resurgence of proper free weights coming back into Irish gyms and the opening of large scale strength and conditioning gyms as well. Its been a large part of the mobility movement, which is pretty important for us as a whole.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The incident where the chap was paralysed was more to do with someone being braindead enough to pile plates behind him, bar-length apart so that when he fell back doing a snatch, the bar bounced back under him as he fell.

As bad as the competition may have been, it wasn't responsible for the injury.

I'd blame that on the event organisers, every competitor is at the back of the platform and has weights stacked directly behind them. Which is a huge no-no to anybody who has done Olympic weightlifting.

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Exactly. At best, bemusing. As it happened, it proved pretty catastrophic. Just saying it wasn't a direct result of the sport.

Yep, the point I was trying to get across was that Events like this can be run really badly, have nothing to do with crossfit as a brand but still contribute to the hatred of crossfit as a whole.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I watched a youtube video a while back of a small crowd in the US who decided to do a "competition", in which they had WOD like segments that included strict pull ups. They were very specific about the strict part as they didn't like the crossfit methodology. The comments afterwards were hilarious as what was and wasn't a "kip", when none of the contestants were really doing strict after the first few. I've been searching for it since but I watch a lot of youtube videos, since it was a good example of why crossfit kips.

Kipping is effectively a product of including body-weight movements into a competitive environment. And it doesn't really come from crossfit, its a natural progression to making the movement easier and it was taken from gymnastics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vhhkhB4S0E

If you say do 20 reps of pull ups, people will kip. So either waste your time, or embrace it. But it does make crossfit look stupid in videos and is a easy source for online bashing, adding to its bad reputation in the usual gym bro circles.



Yep, its more of a strong man workout. But its a very clear and obvious example of bad coaching in a crossfit environment. Most people in that video should never have been exposed to that exercise or weight. Its not appropriate to their skill or strength level. It was also a top ranked video for the search term for a long period.


Back to the OP's point, fail videos have always trended well on youtube and "Gym fails" was replaced with "Crossfit Fails" a few years back. As a brand or methodology that's a serious problem but in recent times that has trended back to gym fails..

How many crossfit gyms can you identify in the below videos. That you know are crossfit, not just strength and conditioning gyms, Olympic clubs or people just dicking around in normal gyms or at home. Or competitions that are sponsored by crossfit. Even most Irish competitions are not actual crossfit events and are run by whoever wants to run them and are not restricted to crossfit only branded gyms entering.

I like this one the best, its the OC throwdown. This is from a competition in the US done by a crowd that have nothing to do with crossfit(but aimed towards them) and is pretty much hated by most of the gyms in the US at this point. A games competitor was paralysed with their stupid over the top WODs and another person broke their back. And yet when this event was reported on in the media and by fitness bloggers, it was a crossfit event in which this happened.

There is also(at this point) a pretty strong case that the crossfit band was deliberately damaged through the release of "the Devor study" in 2013. The report claimed that crossfit had a higher rate of injury then other branded sports, which was parroted heavily by the media and bloggers. I read the report, its methodology seemed pretty circumspect. The long and short of it is that crossfit claimed the report was fabricated so that the organisation would not be considered for valuable military fitness contracts over the incumbent NSCA. They sued afterwards and it looks like they are going to win, there seems to be a lot of evidence against the writers of the report and the NSCA to validate crossfits claims. I'd be interested to see what that might cost in the end for the NSCA.


All of this over the years causes the image to suffer. When the conversation crops up in the pub, the topic will tend to be based around a perception rather then a specific and well thought out argument with points and counter points. And most of that perception comes from fragments of news reports, headlines and half watched videos online. Plus the fact that crossfitters never shut up about crossfit.

There have been good points though, its brought a new level of awareness back to gymnastics and Olympic lifting, regardless of them seeming to hate it. I think its the main cause for the resurgence of proper free weights coming back into Irish gyms and the opening of large scale strength and conditioning gyms as well. Its been a large part of the mobility movement, which is pretty important for us as a whole.

good summary but a minor correction - NO event outside of the crossfit games can be labeled a crossfit event.

Ive also a huge problem with all the 'scaled' events popping up all over the place which is just a way to get people to pay to do a competition. If organized well with safety in mind then thats fine but there should be no max effort lifts at such events e.g. max snatch complex etc

Mellor wrote: »

Wasn't that something that happened in training?
Regardless I do t see how it was from an over the top WOD as claimed.


Edit: unless we're talking about different incidents of course

no it was defo at an event that had lots of top crossfitters attending (NOT crossfit event technically) and doing the snatch

Brian? wrote: »

The winner of the games is the "fittest man on the planet". He's perfectly adapted to crossfit alright. I'd like to see him win Le Tour de France.

I think if we're going to name anybody as the 'fittest on the planet' it has to be a road cyclist. The punishment endured for 3 weeks on Grand Tours is just beyond gruelling, and what's more is that most do it more than once every summer, like the Giro and Vuelta along with the Tour, in addition to all the other small tours and classics aswell.