Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Is Sinn Fein right? (The Stack Issue)

1…6791112…28

Comments

  • #242
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    Well no Richard asked him would he ask the man he spoke to in 2013 if he was no willing to speak to the gardai. It was a yes or no answer.

    And knowing what we all know about the position of the IRA what do you think the man's answer would be?

    Would that make you question what the point of the question was = only to create more faux outrage and to add to the image of a man (Adams) as a despotic liar ONLY interested in one thing.


  • #243
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,967 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    ...And Justice wrote: »
    What do you think that answer is gonna be? "No way I'll be killed"

    Why would he be killed by asking a "trusted confidant" if he is willing to talk to the gardai ?


  • #244
    ...And Justice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    Why would he be killed by asking a "trusted confidant" if he is willing to talk to the gardai ?

    Because his "trusted confident" will tell him to EFF OFF, So he's not going to even bother, would you?


  • #245
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    ...And Justice wrote: »
    Really, then why did he ask for a truth commission? because he knew nobody would be willing to take part, especially the loyalists. Their hands are dirtier with MI5 and the British security forces, that's why Tony Blare didn't wan't to go into that "detail" during the peace process, it would have exposed "national security" information on missions and collusion. We can just go round and round in circles here if you want?
    Gerry Adams asked for a truth commission because 'he knew nobody would be willing to take part' ?
    That seems a tad disingenuous of him tbh.

    I'd say that the reason that Adams doesn't want to hand over the information he is withholding is not because he's in fear of his life of the IRA (that's a laughable suggestion tbh), but because he doesn't want to place a comrade in hot water.
    Gerry Adams is on the side of the people who murdered Brian Stack and against the Gardai investigating the murder.


  • #246
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I notice Richard didn't want the discussion about what a journalist would do if faced with the same quandry on revealing a source. Journalists will go to jail rather than do it.
    A 'state' will keep secrets because they are dangerous to the security of that state.
    But when somebody from SF does the exact same thing as both above, to keep a peace process from completely and catastrophically collapsing he is a despot and a liar and a danger to the state.
    Rank and dangerous hypocrisy.


  • Advertisement
  • #247
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,967 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    And knowing what we all know about the position of the IRA what do you think the man's answer would be?

    Would that make you question what the point of the question was = only to create more faux outrage and to add to the image of a man (Adams) as a despotic liar ONLY interested in one thing.

    I don't know what his response would be. Well there is a perception of Gerry Adams that he isnt being full and forthcoming (in as far as he can be) with information that he has or with people he is aware of with knowledge of the issue in question.

    Francie do you think Gerry Adams has been telling the truth as long as he has been in the public eye ?


  • #248
    ...And Justice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Gerry Adams asked for a truth commission because 'he knew nobody would be willing to take part' ?
    That seems a tad disingenuous of him tbh.

    I'd say that the reason that Adams doesn't want to hand over the information he is withholding is not because he's in fear of his life of the IRA (that's a laughable suggestion tbh), but because he doesn't want to place a comrade in hot water.
    Gerry Adams is on the side of the people who murdered Brian Stack and against the Gardai investigating the murder.

    Seriously? If I was part of an organisation for over 40 years and knew if I opened my gob, I'd be killed, yeah I'd say nothing. Dennis Donaldson was a senior figure in SF in the north, he was martin Mcguinness right hand man, (generally accepted as leader of the IRA army council)and look what happened him. There was no investigation, it was just accepted that you double crossed the IRA and were killed for it. Seriously look at the documentary about it on you tube, it goes to show how secretive these guys are. I can't take you seriously when you think nothing would happen if people opened their gobs.


  • #249
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    I don't know what his response would be.
    Well I suggest you do some research of IRA statements since the GFA.
    Well there is a perception of Gerry Adams that he isnt being full and forthcoming (in as far as he can be) with information that he has or with people he is aware of with knowledge of the issue in question.

    Francie do you think Gerry Adams has been telling the truth as long as he has been in the public eye ?

    A perception has been created, you mean. What did he not do in relation to the Stack case, that he said he would do. Can you please point that out, because I cannot see anything he didn't do.
    Stack changed the goal of his quest, that is not Adams fault. He has been frank and clear about what he would do and the reasons why he couldn't go any further.

    When I see actual evidence that Adams is something other than what he says he is, I will be the first one to call him a liar. Hearsay, bile and fabrication does not qualify in that I am afraid.


  • #250
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You cherrypick out one thing from a conflict to keep your foot on the faux outrage accelerator and ask 'do I think it was right?'
    None of it was 'right'. And none of it has a chance of being put right if governing parties are engaging in this kind of exploitation.
    They were not at war, the Irish state involved themselves by assisting the British in securing and strengthening partition, partition they were at the time constitionally against.

    I was asked for an example of SF victim blaming, I provided it, now I'm being accused of cherrypicking?

    Isn't in the nature of providing an example that one must cherrpick?

    On the point about the Irish state above, are you saying that legitimated the murder of Brian Stack, as well as Gardai and an Irish soldier?


  • #251
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    ...And Justice wrote: »
    Gerry Adams would be a dead man walking if he opened his mouth, the Belfast arm of SF would kill him, look what happened to Donaldson, look at the documentary about it on YT, Gerry in an interview that he knew he was a gonner and there was nothing he could do about it, touts are killed end of story. So trying to compare an unarmed woman being shot by a drug dealer and Gerry ratting up IRA men are two totally different things.

    SF killed Donaldson?

    I thought SF were a political party?


  • Advertisement
  • #252
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,835 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Jawgap wrote: »
    SF killed Donaldson?

    I thought SF were a political party?
    That's the pretence!


  • #253
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    ...And Justice wrote: »
    Seriously? If I was part of an organisation for over 40 years and knew if I opened my gob, I'd be killed, yeah I'd say nothing. Dennis Donaldson was a senior figure in SF in the north, he was martin Mcguinness right hand man, (generally accepted as leader of the IRA army council)and look what happened him. There was no investigation, it was just accepted that you double crossed the IRA and were killed for it. Seriously look at the documentary about it on you tube, it goes to show how secretive these guys are. I can't take you seriously when you think nothing would happen if people opened their gobs.

    You need to try responding to what I actually post, not your own imagining of it.
    I didn't say that nothing would happen to Gerry Adams if he opened his gob. I said that this wasn't his motivation for keeping his gob shut.
    His motivation for keeping his gob shut is because Gerry Adams wants to protect Brian Stack's murderer.


  • #254
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I notice Richard didn't want the discussion about what a journalist would do if faced with the same quandry on revealing a source. Journalists will go to jail rather than do it.
    A 'state' will keep secrets because they are dangerous to the security of that state.
    But when somebody from SF does the exact same thing as both above, to keep a peace process from completely and catastrophically collapsing he is a despot and a liar and a danger to the state.
    Rank and dangerous hypocrisy.

    Adams is not a journalist, SF is not a state - it's a false equivocation to suggest otherwise.

    You might as well as argue that if Adams was a priest sure wouldn't he be bound by the seal of the confessional.


  • #255
    ...And Justice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    Jawgap wrote: »
    SF killed Donaldson?

    I thought SF were a political party?

    I didn't say that and you know that. The IRA is suspected of doing it.


  • #256
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I was asked for an example of SF victim blaming, I provided it, now I'm being accused of cherrypicking?
    Why did you ask me if I thought 'it was right'.
    Isn't in the nature of providing an example that one must cherrpick?
    On the point about the Irish state above, are you saying that legitimated the murder of Brian Stack, as well as Gardai and an Irish soldier?


    Are you saying they would have happened outside of the conflict/war?


  • #257
    ...And Justice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    Phoebas wrote: »
    You need to try responding to what I actually post, not your own imagining of it.
    I didn't say that nothing would happen to Gerry Adams if he opened his gob. I said that this wasn't his motivation for keeping his gob shut.
    His motivation for keeping his gob shut is because Gerry Adams wants to protect Brian Stack's murderer.

    Because you personally don't like Gerry, he's protecting a murderer. No other reason? Why did he ask for a truth commission? You know why.


  • #258
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    ...And Justice wrote: »
    I didn't say that and you know that. The IRA is suspected of doing it.

    Really? Then why mention Adams would be at risk from the "Belfast arm of SF" then equate his potential fate with the actual fate of Donaldson?
    ...And Justice wrote: »
    Gerry Adams would be a dead man walking if he opened his mouth, the Belfast arm of SF would kill him, look what happened to Donaldson, look at the documentary about it on YT, Gerry in an interview that he knew he was a gonner and there was nothing he could do about it, touts are killed end of story. So trying to compare an unarmed woman being shot by a drug dealer and Gerry ratting up IRA men are two totally different things.


  • #259
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Why did you ask me if I thought 'it was right'.
    Isn't in the nature of providing an example that one must cherrpick?




    Are you saying they would have happened outside of the conflict/war?

    Let's leave it, you're not going to answer a simple yes / no question about the murder of unarmed public servants.

    What matters not what might have happened in a hypothetical situation, it's what happened.......and when you wonder why people are so put off SF, you might reflect on their support for these acts.


  • #260
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,967 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    ...And Justice wrote: »
    Jawgap wrote: »
    SF killed Donaldson?

    I thought SF were a political party?

    I didn't say that and you know that. The IRA is suspected of doing it.
    Yeah but you said that Gerry Adams was in the organisation for 40 years and Gerry has stated over and over again he was never in the IRA so its a fair assumption that take from your post that it was Sinn Fein you were talking about.

    And Sinn Fein is a political party and you normally aren't shot and killed for airing the dirty Laundry of the party in public in Ireland. I mean you'd probably wouldn't be flavour of the month but killed no.


  • #261
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    ...And Justice wrote: »
    Because you personally don't like Gerry, he's protecting a murderer. No other reason?
    I doubt my like or dislike for Adams form any part of his thought process.:eek:
    ...And Justice wrote: »
    Why did he ask for a truth commission? You know why.

    I really don't know why.
    Maybe you are correct when you say he asked for it 'because he knew nobody would be willing to take part, especially the loyalists'.


  • Advertisement
  • #262
    blackwhite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,415 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    ...And Justice wrote: »
    Gerry Adams would be a dead man walking if he opened his mouth, the Belfast arm of SF would kill him, look what happened to Donaldson, look at the documentary about it on YT, Gerry in an interview that he knew he was a gonner and there was nothing he could do about it, touts are killed end of story. So trying to compare an unarmed woman being shot by a drug dealer and Gerry ratting up IRA men are two totally different things.

    Slip of the tongue there?:p


  • #263
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Adams is not a journalist, SF is not a state - it's a false equivocation to suggest otherwise.

    You might as well as argue that if Adams was a priest sure wouldn't he be bound by the seal of the confessional.

    What self appointed right (it is a self appointed one) has a journalist to 'protect' a killer?
    Who decides what a state keeps secret, in relation to Dublin/Monaghan bombings, for instance?

    These are not inalienable rights, a subsequent government could rescind the secrecy and say the cover-up was wrong.
    SF have merely taken the same right onto themselves.

    From the get go (the GFA negotiations and agreement) SF and the IRA have been clear on this issue. Both governments signed an agreement that included a pledge that they would set up truth recovery processes specifically because of what these organisations and 20 years later we are going up yet another cul de sac echoing with the same faux outrage about stuff that has been clear from the very start of the process and for very clear and transparent reasons.


  • #264
    ...And Justice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Let's leave it, you're not going to answer a simple yes / no question about the murder of unarmed public servants.

    What matters not what might have happened in a hypothetical situation, it's what happened.......and when you wonder why people are so put off SF, you might reflect on their support for these acts.

    Yeah we are going round in circles, ironically there's a surge of people joining them and the public don't seem to be put off at all. If anything they're getting stronger and FG/FF are having panic attacks. I think Gerry Adams needs to retire and let the clean folks in the south run SF.


  • #265
    ...And Justice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Slip of the tongue there?:p

    Not really, I just read articles like every one else, SF is run from the north and there's obviously a few dodgy characters up there in the organisation.


  • #266
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,516 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Let's leave it, you're not going to answer a simple yes / no question about the murder of unarmed public servants.

    What matters not what might have happened in a hypothetical situation, it's what happened.......and when you wonder why people are so put off SF, you might reflect on their support for these acts.

    What does 'legitimised' mean here? No murder is 'legitimised'.
    The chief prison officer in Portlaoise prison where prison officers complained about the ill treatment they were forced to hand out to prisoners, was shot by a member of the IRA who were being held en masse in the above prison.

    The IRA exist because of the conflict/war and they were in Portlaoise Prison because of the conflict/war.

    Was the killing related to the conflict/war? I'll let you work that one out yourself.
    In 1984 the Assistant General Secretary of the Prison Officers Association, Tom Hoare strongly criticized conditions within the prison stating that staff were forced by senior management in the prison to use excessive force against prisoners. He also criticized the then Governor of Portlaoise Prison, William Reilly, and the Minister of Justice Michael Noonan stating "I accuse the minister of negligence in this area. I accuse the management of Portlaoise Prison of being indifferent to complaints. I would hate to be a prisoner making a complaint".[6] At the Prison Officers Association 1984 conference a delegate from Portlaoise Prison, Larry O'Neill, told the conference: "If Hitler wanted generals today he would find plenty of them in Portlaoise. After the war the Nazis said many of them were doing their duty and that is what the management in Portlaoise are saying today"

    Interesting to note the Minister of Justice at the time.
    I think the same FG government introduced censorship of SF at the time too and the Heavy Gang.


  • #267
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    ...And Justice wrote: »
    Yeah we are going round in circles, ironically there's a surge of people joining them and the public don't seem to be put off at all. If anything they're getting stronger and FG/FF are having panic attacks. I think Gerry Adams needs to retire and let the clean folks in the south run SF.

    Not really, you asserted that a Dail deputy is a risk of being physically coerced, if not killed, by a branch of a political party that operates in this State! For potentially doing something a lot of people would regard as being the correct and civic minded thing to do.

    It's actually incredible that people would think that such a thing is ok.

    I'm all for political retribution, but politicians shouldn't have to be in fear of physical harm from their party.


  • #268
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    What does 'legitimised' mean here? No murder is 'legitimised'.
    The chief prison officer in Portlaoise prison where prison officers complained about the ill treatment they were forced to hand out to prisoners, was shot by a member of the IRA who were being held en masse in the above prison.

    The IRA exist because of the conflict/war and they were in Portlaoise Prison because of the conflict/war.

    Was the killing related to the conflict/war? I'll let you work that one out yourself.



    Interesting to note the Minister of Justice at the time.
    I think the same FG government introduced censorship of SF at the time too and the Heavy Gang.

    Again with the history and the double standards.

    If Amnesty wanted to investigate the IRA's human rights abuses to whom do they go? Where are the records of punishment and detention held?


  • #269
    ...And Justice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Not really, you asserted that a Dail deputy is a risk of being physically coerced, if not killed, by a branch of a political party that operates in this State! For potentially doing something a lot of people would regard as being the correct and civic minded thing to do.

    It's actually incredible that people would think that such a thing is ok.

    I'm all for political retribution, but politicians shouldn't have to be in fear of physical harm from their party.

    I agree, but would you risk it? Just to add to the Donaldson assassination, if you do a bit of online reading, that wasn't sanctioned, it was believed to be rougue IRA men too.So would risk it?


  • #270
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    ...And Justice wrote: »
    I agree, but would you risk it? Just to add to the Donaldson assassination, if you do a bit of online reading, that wasn't sanctioned, it was believed to be rougue IRA men too.So would risk it?

    You believe the Belfast element of SF represent a threat to the physical safet of Adams?

    Have to say I'm an admirer of their party discipline but even I didn't think 'uncomradely behaviour' would be met with physical retribution!


  • Advertisement
  • #271
    ...And Justice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,283 ✭✭✭...And Justice


    Jawgap wrote: »
    You believe the Belfast element of SF represent a threat to the physical safet of Adams?

    Have to say I'm an admirer of their party discipline but even I didn't think 'uncomradely behaviour' would be met with physical retribution!

    Maybe, I wouldn't chance rubbing the old guard up the wrong way. Unfortunately the war was less than 20 years ago, so there's bound to be a few nut jobs still around. They're probably not in SF as per se, but were provos.


Advertisement