Is Sinn Fein right? (The Stack Issue)

Jawgap

K-9 wrote: »

The sides are held to different standards though, the state forces are supposed to abide by conventions and rules.

Eg. The British got taken to the ECHR for breaches of human rights in Castlereagh.

IRA courts handed out murder sentences and kneecapped young lads.

.....and widows and taxi drivers.....

https://twitter.com/newsworthy_ie/status/806572999545651203

...And Justice

Jawgap wrote: »

They certainly do.

Gerry Adams expresses anger after being denied entry to White House

More deflection, the Yankees are murdering people left right and centre because they don't like a particular leader, go down that rabbit hole if you want, fire away. And it's sanctioned by the UN, so it's ok?

RandomName2

K-9 wrote: »

The sides are held to different standards though, the state forces are supposed to abide by conventions and rules.

Eg. The British got taken to the ECHR for breaches of human rights in Castlereagh.

IRA courts handed out murder sentences and kneecapped young lads.

I think that the mistake most people make is the fallacy that there always has to be a good side or a wrong side in a conflict. Sometimes both sides can be in the right. Or you can have something like the Troubles where combatants from all sides outdid each other in shameful behaviour.

The reason why Sinn Fein supports feel aggrieved is because they phrase everything with "butwhatabout Bloody Sunday" or "butwhatabout the UVF", as if that somehow exonerated terrible acts perpetrated by their own "side". It makes little sense in the republic of Ireland, which is hardly a binary equation.

Jawgap

...And Justice wrote: »

More deflection, the Yankees are murdering people left right and centre because they don't like a particular leader, go down that rabbit hole if you want, fire away. And it's sanctioned by the UN, so it's ok?

Yes they are and if SF are do interested in human tights why do they court and cavort at the centre of US power......in the belly of the beast! And why get so upset at bring excluded?

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

There's no argument - the victors write the history. 'Twas always thus since even before Thucydides.

Only fools accept it as gospel. Open your ears and eyes.

...And Justice

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes they are and if SF are do interested in human tights why do they court and cavort at the centre of US power......in the belly of the beast! And why get so upset at bring excluded?

I don't know, enlighten me, I have lost all faith in politics in this kip of a country, I'm planning to move to the Mediterranean next year, because this country is fcuked. Luckily there are plenty of jobs available in the country I'm looking at. Fcuk Ireland and it's rubbish political system. I'm going and I will never return(only for Christmas).

FrancieBrady

K-9 wrote: »

The sides are held to different standards though, the state forces are supposed to abide by conventions and rules.

Eg. The British got taken to the ECHR for breaches of human rights in Castlereagh.

IRA courts handed out murder sentences and kneecapped young lads.

But they don't abide when it suits. The UN sat on it's hands when the north combusted and the British and Irish govs sat idly by.
Forgive me if I think the UN is full of nonsense tbh.

Jawgap

...And Justice wrote: »

I don't know, enlighten me, I have lost all faith in politics in this kip of a country, I'm planning to move to the Mediterranean next year, because this country is fcuked. Luckily there are plenty of jobs available in the country I'm looking at. Fcuk Ireland and it's rubbish political system. I'm going and I will never return(only for Christmas).

Power, plain and simple. Like all the politicians they want to bask in the power of the Office of the US Presidency.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Only fools accept it as gospel. Open your ears and eyes.

Ah well, it's foolery that pays me well

Professor Moriarty

...And Justice wrote: »

I don't know, enlighten me, I have lost all faith in politics in this kip of a country, I'm planning to move to the Mediterranean next year, because this country is fcuked. Luckily there are plenty of jobs available in the country I'm looking at. Fcuk Ireland and it's rubbish political system. I'm going and I will never return(only for Christmas).

That's interesting. I'm wondering which Mediterranean country has a better political system than Ireland. Italy? Greece? Nevermind, it's off topic.

...And Justice

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That's interesting. I'm wondering which Mediterranean country has a better political system than Ireland. Italy? Greece? Nevermind, it's off topic.

I have a friend in Majorca, they teach maths and 5 languages during the winter, and there's a shortage of engineers. Good pay too, I'd make a killing on this house and still be able to buy and have pocket change~ 100k

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Ah well, it's foolery that pays me well

All kinds of people get paid well. As you say, history is just one sided fiction based on fact.

Professor Moriarty

...And Justice wrote: »

I have a friend in Majorca, they teach maths and 5 languages during the winter, and there's a shortage of engineers. Good pay too, I'd make a killing on this house and still be able to buy and have pocket change~ 100k

Good for you. Palma is a great city if that's where you're going. Best of luck.

...And Justice

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Good for you. Palma is a great city if that's where you're going. Best of luck.

Thanks, that's where we're headed, power stations and all that, also offered a job in alcudia.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

All kinds of people get paid well. As you say, history is just one sided fiction based on fact.

No, it's an interpretation of events.

SF interpret the murder of Brian Stack, it seems, as an unfortunate accident of war, others see it as the murder of an unarmed public servant. The majority view is the latter, but it doesn't stop holding a different view.

Professor Moriarty

...And Justice wrote: »

Thanks, that's where we're headed, power stations and all that, also offered a job in alcudia.

The port is nice but very touristy. The old town is beautiful and much more refined. Enjoy and don't forget the factor 50.

...And Justice

Jawgap wrote: »

No, it's an interpretation of events.

SF interpret the murder of Brian Stack, it seems, as an unfortunate accident of war, others see it as the murder of an unarmed public servant. The majority view is the latter, but it doesn't stop holding a different view.

It was rougue IRA lads that did it. It wasn't right nor is any murder. Out of here to retire to the Mediterranean. Enjoy the shíte storm coming to Ireland folks. SF WILL be in power in the next government. I'm leaving because the AAA (UNEMPLOYMENT PARTY) are dicks and expect me to pay for everyone.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

No, it's an interpretation of events.

SF interpret the murder of Brian Stack, it seems, as an unfortunate accident of war, others see it as the murder of an unarmed public servant. The majority view is the latter, but it doesn't stop holding a different view.

A few posts ago it was written by the victors. That qualifies as fiction with facts in my book.

I think SF are very clear on what happened Brian Stack. He was killed.
The bit you want to gloss over is contained in Tom Hoare's statement about what was going on in Portlaoise.
Ignoring that is a bit like ignoring what America where doing in the Middle East when assessing why 9-11 happened.
Oh wait, don't a certain coterie of internet posters do that too?

Professor Moriarty

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A few posts ago it was written by the victors. That qualifies as fiction with facts in my book.

I think SF are very clear on what happened Brian Stack. He was killed.
The bit you want to gloss over is contained in Tom Hoare's statement about what was going on in Portlaoise.
Ignoring that is a bit like ignoring what America where doing in the Middle East when assessing why 9-11 happened.
Oh wait, don't a certain coterie of internet posters do that too?

Brian Stack was murdered, not killed.

Godge

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So, what you are saying in effect here, is closure and answers for a whole community of victims, hinges on whether Adams told the full truth to a TV programme?
That no matter what he says or does subsequent to this 'issue' (which nobody seems to think important enough to keep a recording of, as I have never seen this lie) you and the rest of the cohort have decided he is telling the truth about nothing? Despite the fact that no charges have ever been brought against following extensive examination of several allegations?

Step back and have a look at that and tell us again about 'credibility'.

No, all I was saying is that Adams is a proven liar, so everything else he says needs to be considered in that light.

Godge

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You were not happy with ML doing it once in a blue moon, but silent on it happening again and again in relation to SF.

That warrants a QED . Well done.

Now this is where the hypocrisy of Sinn Fein and its supporters is at its heights.

Parliamentary Privilege says that you shouldn't name people not in the House and who are therefore unable to defend themselves. Alan Farrell named Dessie Ellis and Martin Ferris, he didn't accuse them of anything, he just said they should make statements to the Dail. He didn't break privilege then. Even more pertinent, he didn't name the other two people on the email.

On the other hand, Mary Lou named people like Des O'Malley who were not in the Dail to defend themselves.

FrancieBrady

Godge wrote: »

No, all I was saying is that Adams is a proven liar, so everything else he says needs to be considered in that light.

I find that is critical when appraising anything a politician has to say.

FrancieBrady

Godge wrote: »

Now this is where the hypocrisy of Sinn Fein and its supporters is at its heights.

Parliamentary Privilege says that you shouldn't name people not in the House and who are therefore unable to defend themselves. Alan Farrell named Dessie Ellis and Martin Ferris, he didn't accuse them of anything, he just said they should make statements to the Dail. He didn't break privilege then. Even more pertinent, he didn't name the other two people on the email.

On the other hand, Mary Lou named people like Des O'Malley who were not in the Dail to defend themselves.

As you were about lies, we can all assess what he was at. And that was before it was alleged TDs were being approached to name the two. At least Farrell had his 15 mins I suppose.

FrancieBrady

billy few mates wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Was he not?

billy few mates

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Was he not?

Spin Feign may attempt to minimise the event by saying "he was killed" as if it were a tragic road accident but to most right thinking people he was savagely murdered in cold blood "was he not"....?

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A few posts ago it was written by the victors. That qualifies as fiction with facts in my book.

I think SF are very clear on what happened Brian Stack. He was killed.
The bit you want to gloss over is contained in Tom Hoare's statement about what was going on in Portlaoise.
Ignoring that is a bit like ignoring what America where doing in the Middle East when assessing why 9-11 happened.
Oh wait, don't a certain coterie of internet posters do that too?

Yes, written by the victors, their interpretation of events.

Brian Stack was killed, that is fact. That fact is then interpreted by the historians through various conceptual 'lenses.' Some will regard it as a unfortunate 'accident of war' others as the cold blooded murder of an unarmed public servant.

It would serve you well to read 'What is history?' EH Carr's essay discussing the topic, it's where all first years start, and one of the abiding messages is that history is subjective because facts are subjective.

FrancieBrady

billy few mates wrote: »

Spin Feign may attempt to minimise the event by saying "he was killed" as if it were a tragic road accident but to most right thinking people he was savagely murdered in cold blood "was he not"....?

It was the IRA who gave the information that he was murdered. Nobody knew if he been killed for political reasons or not.
The IRA that is hellbent on protecting itself allegedly. At least the Stacks now know that.

rockatansky

This thread is a carbon copy of every thread to do with the North. Same points are made, same arguments over and over again.

There is absolutely zero chance of Gerry Adams giving the name of the contact that they met that day. Kenny knows it, Michael Martin knows it, anyone with with the slightest interest in Irish politics (north and south) knows it. Not an absolute hope.

I know Gerry is a murdering scumbag to most on here. But this opinion doesn't really count for anything. Should he decide to run again then the electorate of Louth will be given their chance to decide on his position within Dail Eireann come election time 2017.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, written by the victors, their interpretation of events.

Brian Stack was killed, that is fact. That fact is then interpreted by the historians through various conceptual 'lenses.' Some will regard it as a unfortunate 'accident of war' others as the cold blooded murder of an unarmed public servant.

It would serve you well to read 'What is history?' EH Carr's essay discussing the topic, it's where all first years start, and one of the abiding messages is that history is subjective because facts are subjective.

Did you get to the bit where they tell you to develop your own critical faculties and read the writings and interpretations of both sides? I got a lot out of that, made me realise that history without the engagement of said faculties is fiction peppered with facts.

billy few mates

rockatansky wrote: »

This thread is a carbon copy of every thread to do with the North. Same points are made, same arguments over and over again.

There is absolutely zero chance of Gerry Adams giving the name of the contact that they met that day. Kenny knows it, Michael Martin knows it, anyone with with the slightest interest in Irish politics (north and south) knows it. Not an absolute hope.

I know Gerry is a murdering scumbag to most on here. But this opinion doesn't really count for anything. Should he decide to run again then the electorate of Louth will be given their chance to decide on his position within Dail Eireann come election time 2017.

I for one hope Gerry Adams remains at the helm of Spin Feign for many many years to come, he's the gift that keeps on giving as far as I'm concerned.