Is Sinn Fein right? (The Stack Issue)

FrancieBrady · 10-12-2016 11:54PM

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

Yeah to be fair there's probably an element of truth in that. Plus when Stack was interviewed on the radio he was asked did he agree to not legally prosecute anyone if given info and he delayed his answer and then went on a fairly long winded roundabout answer about only if 100% truth was given and the family agreed etc.

BUT....... What else could he do? What would you do if you were trying to get to the bottom of who killed your Dad? He had to do whatever he could to find out whatever he could and take it from there.

It's amazing that there's any talk about "deals" here. A person was murdered, a person knows who did it, a person should be prosecuted for withholding information. It's fairly cut and dry.

I fully respect that, and having witnessed the pain of quite a few deaths resulting from the conflict, fully sympathise.
But that doesn't get away from the fact that I understand the bigger picture too. That Adams, like a loyalist leader, can not go down the road of handing over combatants or reneging on confidentiality agreements.

The faux outraged refuse to see the problem with that, pretending SF and Adams are using the peace process as a smokescreen.
They aren't, the process would quite simply, cease to exist.

One_Of_Shanks · 11-12-2016 12:23AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I fully respect that, and having witnessed the pain of quite a few deaths resulting from the conflict, fully sympathise.
But that doesn't get away from the fact that I understand the bigger picture too. That Adams, like a loyalist leader, can not go down the road of handing over combatants or reneging on confidentiality agreements.

The faux outraged refuse to see the problem with that, pretending SF and Adams are using the peace process as a smokescreen.
They aren't, the process would quite simply, cease to exist.

Fully sympathise... I got that from Bank Of Ireland on the phone when they delayed the release of my mortgage funds.
But this is a murder we're talking about. Seriously, have you put yourself in his shoes for a minute and considered how you would feel if it was your Da?

I take your point though, probably so many killed from the Loyalist side looking for the same answers.
It's just incredibly sad all round.

Big point here though is for people like me who can't stand FG and not overly fond of FF, I was leaning toward SF vote next time around but all this stuff just harms your cause.
Would it not be prudent to get rid of Gerry and bring in someone younger and fresh who can put a bit more distance between themselves and things like this?
Why is he still there at all?

tomwaterford · 11-12-2016 12:31AM

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

Fully sympathise... I got that from Bank Of Ireland on the phone when they delayed the release of my mortgage funds.
But this is a murder we're talking about. Seriously, have you put yourself in his shoes for a minute and considered how you would feel if it was your Da?

I take your point though, probably so many killed from the Loyalist side looking for the same answers.
It's just incredibly sad all round.

Big point here though is for people like me who can't stand FG and not overly fond of FF, I was leaning toward SF vote next time around but all this stuff just harms your cause.
Would it not be prudent to get rid of Gerry and bring in someone younger and fresh who can put a bit more distance between themselves and things like this?
Why is he still there at all?

Presumably you think they should be ashamed of their past??

There are many in SF who've lost family members to the troubles and who've wasted lives in jail for Ireland

They can't simply adbandon them to chase soft flakey votes.....their are plenty wholl acrept their past for what it is.....and see the present and future and vote according to policies

However.....with the push by FG for a united Ireland. ....perhaps the next election should be a cool off and concentrate on putting together pressure by all polirical parties for a border poll???

FrancieBrady · 11-12-2016 12:38AM

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

Fully sympathise... I got that from Bank Of Ireland on the phone when they delayed the release of my mortgage funds.
But this is a murder we're talking about. Seriously, have you put yourself in his shoes for a minute and considered how you would feel if it was your Da?

I take your point though, probably so many killed from the Loyalist side looking for the same answers.
It's just incredibly sad all round.

Big point here though is for people like me who can't stand FG and not overly fond of FF, I was leaning toward SF vote next time around but all this stuff just harms your cause.
Would it not be prudent to get rid of Gerry and bring in someone younger and fresh who can put a bit more distance between themselves and things like this?
Why is he still there at all?

I don't have membership of SF or any party. I don't roll that way. I am neither right or left all the time either. If I agree with something that is how I vote. So who leads a party is nothing to do with me.
Do I see evidence that there is some sort of cult or despotic element to SF, no I don't, in fact, I think the debate is at a lower ebb when that is introduced than it is when the victim blaming one comes out. And both always do in a debate about SF.

On the sympathise point, why can't I do both? I'm human, I recognize suffering but I can also recognize the various positions people are in.
I would love to see the Stacks get what they want or Maria Cahill's alleged abuser answer in a court, but looking for somebody in Adams position (still building a peace process and keeping many different opinions on-side) to achieve that will mean that many others won't get what they want.

There is really only one (possibly flawed and imperfect) way to do it. The same way it has been done in many other conflict/war zones around the world.

One_Of_Shanks · 11-12-2016 12:46AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

There are many in SF who've lost family members to the troubles and who've wasted lives in jail for Ireland

They can't simply adbandon them to chase soft flakey votes.....their are plenty wholl acrept their past for what it is.....and see the present and future and vote according to policies

"Soft flakey votes"?
WTF?
You do realise that if you got enough "soft flakey votes" it can win you an election right?
Or does my vote count for less due to not being affiliated to any party?
Last I checked each vote counts for one regardless of whom it comes from.

And as for "seeing the future and voting for policies"... Did I not just say in my last post that i was leaning towards SF in the next election?

The question was would it not be better if Gerry moved on as it could influence voters with all these constant question marks over him.
If that riled you then that's your business.

You know, no offence or anything but if everyone in SF came across like you then you'd get no votes.

tomwaterford · 11-12-2016 12:53AM

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

"Soft flakey votes"?
WTF?
You do realise that if you got enough "soft flakey votes" it can win you an election right?
Or does my vote count for less due to not being affiliated to any party?
Last I checked each vote counts for one regardless of whom it comes from.

And as for "seeing the future and voting for policies"... Did I not just say in my last post that i was leaning towards SF in the next election?

The question was would it not be better if Gerry moved on as it could influence voters with all these constant question marks over him.
If that riled you then that's your business.

You know, no offence or anything but if everyone in SF came across like you then you'd get no votes.

It would undoubtedly be better?? (He is afaik...but the next leader being sorted afaik)

However.....they are chasing people wholl vote for them of policies regardless of its leadership??

As a substance above style approach (curiously enough like fg-even they don't like kenny)
As the old type of leaning on a leader and paying I'll regard to policies lead to a berries Ahearn style diaster....you don't want a return ticket that??

I do apologise Ifor this comes across as riled...I am not a member of SF to be clear here (know many who are/were)

Too conclude. ...there will always be these questions over its past....some view it with great pride that they protected nationlists for years when noone else would?

These questions are to be more regular over the next 8-20 years as the many members die off and a wave of paramilitary Funerals which the leadership will attend
What good is a flakes vote wholl be turned off by a leadership paying homage to dead ira members???

One_Of_Shanks · 11-12-2016 01:01AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't have membership of SF or any party. I don't roll that way. I am neither right or left all the time either. If I agree with something that is how I vote. So who leads a party is nothing to do with me.
Do I see evidence that there is some sort of cult or despotic element to SF, no I don't, in fact, I think the debate is at a lower ebb when that is introduced than it is when the victim blaming one comes out. And both always do in a debate about SF.

On the sympathise point, why can't I do both? I'm human, I recognize suffering but I can also recognize the various positions people are in.
I would love to see the Stacks get what they want or Maria Cahill's alleged abuser answer in a court, but looking for somebody in Adams position (still building a peace process and keeping many different opinions on-side) to achieve that will mean that many others won't get what they want.

There is really only one (possibly flawed and imperfect) way to do it. The same way it has been done in many other conflict/war zones around the world.

Good post. And by the way you come across as very articulate.

Look, If this was my Dad then I would turn the world upside down to find out and it would f**kin kill me that a politician had the answer and was hiding behind procedure to stop me from getting to the truth.
As you said, you're human, so you can see that.

You say he's not hiding behind the peace process but to Stack he is.

FrancieBrady · 11-12-2016 01:15AM

One_Of_Shanks wrote: »

Good post. And by the way you come across as very articulate.

Look, If this was my Dad then I would turn the world upside down to find out and it would f**kin kill me that a politician had the answer and was hiding behind procedure to stop me from getting to the truth.
As you said, you're human, so you can see that.

You say he's not hiding behind the peace process but to Stack he is.

Harsh reality here again.
Even if Adam's gave the name of the IRA commander, do you think he is going to tell the gardai anything?

It is a desperate situation and the only people who have the key to unlock it are the 2 governments who promised to set up a truth finding process.

Failing that what we have to remember is that there are thousands out there (including my family) who like the Stacks who are desperate to find out what happened and why.
Look at the damage the Civil War did to society here and decades of politics precisely because the secrets where locked away and swept under the carpets of the Military Bureau until most involved were dead.
We face the very real prospect that many will never find out. It took 40 years for a government to tell the truth about what happened in just one incident and that was only because of the scale of it. They still haven't held anybody accountable for it.
As I said inin my OP we are wasting valuable time on these repetitive trips into cul de sacs.

Jawgap · 11-12-2016 07:29AM

osmiumartist wrote: »

Are you ever going to back this up? You really do seem to think trotting out a bizarre "blame the victim" with zilch to support it gets you some sort of automatic win?

It's easy, just look at what Ferris has been saying, or what was oreviously said about Mairia Cahill.

Then there's this......

https://twitter.com/newsworthy_ie/status/806572999545651203

FrancieBrady · 11-12-2016 10:44AM

Anybody believe Mattie McGrath was asked to be a FG/FFbot in the Dail last week.

Never thought it would be Mattie who could potentially prove what a lot of us suspect, the existence of an joint party orchestra to do what orchestra's do best - orchestrate.

FrancieBrady · 11-12-2016 10:53AM

Jawgap wrote: »

It's easy, just look at what Ferris has been saying, or what was oreviously said about Mairia Cahill.

Then there's this......

https://twitter.com/newsworthy_ie/status/806572999545651203

Are you really telling us that you didn't understand the consequences of informing in 1987?

Do you know what the consequences of deserting used to be, or spying in other armies?
Ridiculous now that you are trawling history for this faux outrage material.

Are you also asking us to believe that the Irish security forces where ALL cuddly teddy bears just doing their jobs? Really? Amnesty report - The Heavy Gang, anyone?

Lets try and stay in the actual realities of what happened.

Seth Brundle · 11-12-2016 10:55AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Anybody believe Mattie McGrath was asked to be a FG/FFbot in the Dail last week.

Never thought it would be Mattie who could potentially prove what a lot of us suspect, the existence of an joint party orchestra to do what orchestra's do best - orchestrate.

Oh, now I get it.
All this time I had presumed Gerry was assisting in a cover up of a murder whereas in fact the whole thing was concocted by FG and FF in order to get Stack onto a FF ticket at some point in the future. Bloody hell, Stack might even have made up the murder.
All this time I've been accusing Gerry of despicable things and it turns out he's not a dirty filthy lying scumbag.
My bad!

Jawgap · 11-12-2016 10:56AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Anybody believe Mattie McGrath was asked to be a FG/FFbot in the Dail last week.

Never thought it would be Mattie who could potentially prove what a lot of us suspect, the existence of an joint party orchestra to do what orchestra's do best - orchestrate.

It's politics - of course coalitions, formal and informal, are going to develop and disintegrate as issues rise and fall.

It's like SF and Syirza - one minute they're all buddy.....

.....next, cast aside.

FrancieBrady · 11-12-2016 10:57AM

kbannon wrote: »

Oh, now I get it.
All this time I had presumed Gerry was assisting in a cover up of a murder whereas in fact the whole thing was concocted by FG and FF in order to get Stack onto a FF ticket at some point in the future. Bloody hell, Stack might even have made up the murder.
All this time I've been accusing Gerry of despicable things and it turns out he's not a dirty filthy lying scumbag.
My bad!

No, it's quite simple what this might be...the exploitation of yet another victim's family.
Stack is still just as dead, the family are still waiting for closure (a little bit less closure, thanks to who?) like thousands of others.

Jawgap · 11-12-2016 11:00AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you really telling us that you didn't understand the consequences of informing in 1987?

Do you know what the consequences of deserting used to be, or spying in other armies?
Ridiculous now that you are trawling history for this faux outrage material.

Are you also asking us to believe that the Irish security forces where ALL cuddly teddy bears just doing their jobs? Really? Amnesty report - The Heavy Gang, anyone?

Lets try and stay in the actual realities of what happened.

I certainly did - but do you think it's ok?

Adams seemed to think so.

BTW, 'Irish security forces' - I thought the IRA were not 'at war' with them? Are you now saying they were 'legitimate targets' - that Brian Stack's killing was justified? Do you agree with Ferris' assessment of him in his book?

Phoebas · 11-12-2016 11:22AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is a desperate situation and the only people who have the key to unlock it are the 2 governments who promised to set up a truth finding process.

Adams has the key but is refusing to use it. How could be trusted to tell the truth in a 'truth finding process' if he can't manage to participate in the simplest form of a truth finding process - just telling the truth.

osmiumartist · 11-12-2016 11:58AM

Jawgap wrote: »

It's easy, just look at what Ferris has been saying, or what was oreviously said about Mairia Cahill.

Then there's this......

https://twitter.com/newsworthy_ie/status/806572999545651203

So your evidence for Adams "victim blaming" Stack is somebody else supposedly said something about somebody else?
Compelling.

Itssoeasy · 11-12-2016 12:07PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, it's quite simple what this might be...the exploitation of yet another victim's family.
Stack is still just as dead, the family are still waiting for closure (a little bit less closure, thanks to who?) like thousands of others.

It's his family who are looking for the information so is Austin stack and his family exploiting his fathers death ?
His family can't get closure because people who know who killed him won't tell the gardai.

Seth Brundle · 11-12-2016 12:17PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, it's quite simple what this might be...the exploitation of yet another victim's family.
Stack is still just as dead, the family are still waiting for closure (a little bit less closure, thanks to who?) like thousands of others.

I'm not sure I follow. Stack is leading the push against SF and their militant brethren. Stack appears quite competent to do his own fighting and given his recent criticism of FF and FG politicising the issue, I presume that they are not leading him.
Still maybe SF followers know what victim exploitation looks like given how they got so much experience of using the hunger strikers and so on.

FrancieBrady · 11-12-2016 12:25PM

Jawgap wrote: »

I certainly did - but do you think it's ok?

Adams seemed to think so.

BTW, 'Irish security forces' - I thought the IRA were not 'at war' with them? Are you now saying they were 'legitimate targets' - that Brian Stack's killing was justified? Do you agree with Ferris' assessment of him in his book?

You cherrypick out one thing from a conflict to keep your foot on the faux outrage accelerator and ask 'do I think it was right?'
None of it was 'right'. And none of it has a chance of being put right if governing parties are engaging in this kind of exploitation.
They were not at war, the Irish state involved themselves by assisting the British in securing and strengthening partition, partition they were at the time constitionally against.

...And Justice · 11-12-2016 12:26PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Adams has the key but is refusing to use it. How could be trusted to tell the truth in a 'truth finding process' if he can't manage to participate in the simplest form of a truth finding process - just telling the truth.

Because he knows that the British government and security forces will never take part in a truth commission, they don't want their ugly past or missions and collusion with the UDA revealed to the public. And by the way the UDA was a recognized legal organization during the troubles in collaboration MI5.

osmiumartist · 11-12-2016 12:41PM

kbannon wrote: »

victim exploitation

Will you stop exploiting Stack and other victims of the troubles to advance your own agenda?

FrancieBrady · 11-12-2016 12:44PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Adams has the key but is refusing to use it. How could be trusted to tell the truth in a 'truth finding process' if he can't manage to participate in the simplest form of a truth finding process - just telling the truth.

Adams, as far as I can see told the truth about what he would do for the Stack family and what he wouldn't do.

All the rest is just journalistic and political high ground moralising.

Seth Brundle · 11-12-2016 12:48PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

Will you stop exploiting Stack and other victims of the troubles to advance your own agenda?

Oh I'm exploiting Stack now?
SF are good at turning reality on its head!

For the record, I am not exploiting Stack ir the brutal murder of his father. I'm making use of the fact that a TD is assisting in the cover up of this unnecessary murder in the same way that he assisted in the cover up of his paedophile brother and countless other crimes.
What makes it easier for me to voice my concerns is that SF supporters blindly look to point fingers in every direction but towards their own despot leader and his murderous BFFs!

FrancieBrady · 11-12-2016 12:56PM

kbannon wrote: »

Oh I'm exploiting Stack now?
SF are good at turning reality on its head!

For the record, I am not exploiting Stack ir the brutal murder of his father. I'm making use of the fact that a TD is assisting in the cover up of this unnecessary murder in the same way that he assisted in the cover up of his paedophile brother and countless other crimes.
What makes it easier for me to voice my concerns is that SF supporters blindly look to point fingers in every direction but towards their own despot leader and his murderous BFFs!

A TD has said exactly what he is going to do here, since the conflict/war ended.
But again and again you expect him to do differently, it isn't going to happen.
There is not one single thing stopping Stack agitiating for whatever he wants, in the same way there is nothing stopping the Dublin/Monaghan families agitating for the truth or for Loyalist/Unionist families agitating for the truth.

What is WRONG, is when political parties select causes and families to promote their own selfish political agendas. And it is with that that my OP is concerned.
I am not a bit interested in what selective distaste you have for certain groups or individuals involved in the conflict/war.

osmiumartist · 11-12-2016 12:56PM

kbannon wrote: »

Oh I'm exploiting Stack now?

Sorry, I was only going on the previous posts in this thread and assumed we were playing a game of dropping "blame the victim" into every post no matter how little sense or relevance it had.
You've jumped straight to saying I'm in Sinn Fein? Does that make it easier for you or your quarter-baked "argument"?

Seth Brundle · 11-12-2016 01:01PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A TD has said exactly what he is going to do here, since the conflict/war ended.
But again and again you expect him to do differently, it isn't going to happen.

You mean he won't assist the Gardai in an ongoing murder investigation.
Don't forget that this murder had nothing to do with your "war" and was not sanctioned by IRA HQ.

FrancieBrady · 11-12-2016 01:02PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

Sorry, I was only going on the previous posts in this thread and assumed we were playing a game of dropping "blame the victim" into every post no matter how little sense or relevance it had.
You've jumped straight to saying I'm in Sinn Fein? Does that make it easier for you or your quarter-baked "argument"?

A list exists when you want to play the 'blame the victim accusation' game. The rules state it can only be played when discussing Jerry McCabe, Jean McConville, Maria Cahill and Brian Stack, there are a few subs too but you get the gist. It can never be played when you discuss victims of the British or Irish security forces though, that will get you sent off.

Seth Brundle · 11-12-2016 01:04PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

Sorry, I was only going on the previous posts in this thread and assumed we were playing a game of dropping "blame the victim" into every post no matter how little sense or relevance it had.
You've jumped straight to saying I'm in Sinn Fein? Does that make it easier for you or your quarter-baked "argument"?

My "quarter-baked argument". I'm simply against the defence or a person who is actively covering up a murder and who has prior experience in this and the cover up of rape and paedophilia. How is my argument "quarter-baked"?

Seth Brundle · 11-12-2016 01:06PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A list exists when you want to play the 'blame the victim accusation' game. The rules state it can only be played when discussing Jerry McCabe, Jean McConville, Maria Cahill and Brian Stack, there are a few subs too but you get the gist. It can never be played when you discuss victims of the British or Irish security forces though, that will get you sent off.

Is there a thread on any murders carried out the British or Irish security forces which are being cover ed up by current TDs?

Is Sinn Fein right? (The Stack Issue)

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