Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

FrancieBrady · 27-11-2016 10:32AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I've acknowledged that I didn't know he was commenting on behalf of the Brits.

If you want to cringe for anything you should cringe for your wild assumptions of Britain's intentions towards NI.

Intention's that I add you still haven't justified, no matter how much you try to deflect.

The British have clearly laid out their intentions in the GFA and have stated precisely how they view NI. They have 'no selfish strategic or economic interest in Northern Ireland'.
Did you block the profound implications of that from your mind like most unionists have?

In London's eye you are something 'other', you could never imagine a British PM saying anything similar about Scotland or Wales but you could imagine them say it about ...ahem, 'colonies' like Gibraltar and Las Malvinas.

Time to face up to the realities for Unionism because Brexit was the last thing you guys needed to support!

Iwasfrozen · 27-11-2016 10:40AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The British have clearly laid out their intentions in the GFA and have stated precisely how they view NI. They have 'no selfish strategic or economic interest in Northern Ireland'.
Did you block the profound implications of that from your mind like most unionists have?

In London's eye you are something 'other', you could never imagine a British PM saying anything similar about Scotland or Wales but you could imagine them say it about ...ahem, 'colonies' like Gibraltar and Las Malvinas.

Time to face up to the realities for Unionism because Brexit was the last thing you guys needed to support!

Those comments may or may not have been a true reflection at the time and they may or may not be a true reflection 20 years after the statement has been.made but you are reaching to say that they are reflective 20 years later. (If they were ever true instead of a meaningless statement to underpin the agreement)

Now that's a relatively complex paragragh and since earlier I had to post simpler points multiple times I fully suspect I'll be copying this again.

20 years on from the GFA, my it's been a while. How's that call for a border poll? Any closer than you were on day one? Backwards progression doesn't count.

FrancieBrady · 27-11-2016 11:02AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Those comments may or may not have been a true reflection at the time and they may or may not be a true reflection 20 years after the statement has been.made but you are reaching to say that they are reflective 20 years later. (If they were ever true instead of a meaningless statement to underpin the agreement)

Now that's a relatively complex paragragh and since earlier I had to post simpler points multiple times I fully suspect I'll be copying this again.

20 years on from the GFA, my it's been a while. How's that call for a border poll? Any closer than you were on day one? Backwards progression doesn't count.

Still cringing for you and Unionism in general.

You are sticking to the 'they had their fingers crossed behind their backs and they love us really' speil. It really isn't hard to see why Arlene plays to the lowest common denominator so so often, most recently in persuading so many of you to follow her on the lunatic Brexit path.

Iwasfrozen · 27-11-2016 11:19AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Still cringing for you and Unionism in general.

You are sticking to the 'they had their fingers crossed behind their backs and they love us really' speil. It really isn't hard to see why Arlene plays to the lowest common denominator so so often, most recently in persuading so many of you to follow her on the lunatic Brexit path.

No I'm sticking to the "basing your hopes on a statement made 20 years ago that you don't even know was accurate 20 years ago is stupid" spiel.

Now you haven't answered my question. How's the border poll campaign coming along? Any closer than you were 20 years ago?

FrancieBrady · 27-11-2016 12:01PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No I'm sticking to the "basing your hopes on a statement made 20 years ago that you don't even know was accurate 20 years ago is stupid" spiel.

Now you haven't answered my question. How's the border poll campaign coming along? Any closer than you were 20 years ago?

You might as well ask is the GFA 'accurate'. Of course it is accurate, it was an official declaration made by the two governments who went on to make an internationally binding agreement that still stands today.

Your head in the sand on this is pathetic really.

How much closer are we to a border poll? We are as close as we ever were, it can be called at any time the SoS is off the opinion that one is necessary.
Your head in the sand about how little it will take for this to happen (the 2 governments agreeing the time is right) is endlessly cute.

All that is required is a game changer and Brexit (that you guys voted for

:D) or Scottish independence and the break-up/fundamental change of the UK (more or less inevitable imo) could well be it.

Only a fool would believe the above will not impinge. Even Enda has had a complete volte face on the matter.

Iwasfrozen · 27-11-2016 12:27PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You might as well ask is the GFA 'accurate'. Of course it is accurate, it was an official declaration made by the two governments who went on to make an internationally binding agreement that still stands today.

Nope whether a declaration underpinning a deal reflects reality is not the sane thing ad questioning whether the specifics if the deal itself will be honored. No.matter how much it may suit your argument. No amount of whining and calling me names will change that I'm afraid.

Maybe the declaration did reflect reality. Maybe it didn't. Maybe it did 20 years ago and doesn't any more. Maybe it didn't 20 years ago and it does now. My point is you don't know and basing your entire political hopes on it is... What's that word you used? "Pathetic"

Your head in the sand on this is pathetic really.

Keep saying that, you'll believe it.

How much closer are we to a border poll? We are as close as we ever were, it can be called at any time the SoS is off the opinion that one is necessary.
Your head in the sand about how little it will take for this to happen (the 2 governments agreeing the time is right) is endlessly cute.

Right so you aren't any closer.

Your grandkids will be talking about "game changers" if they didn't grow up bored with granddad's irrelevant stories.

You accuse me of having my head in the sand but you have nothing to support your point of view except a declaration I've repeatedly destroyed.

Your argument basically boils down to "English unionists hate NI unionists and want rid of it, I have no evidence to support this view but NI unionists have their heads in the sand if they disagree. So based on my total lack of evidence unionists should start becoming nationalists because they're bigots if they don't" also "something something Arlene Foster"

Never change Francie, you be you. *Tiocfidh bhur lá!

*B'fhéidir, tá súil agat, lena dtoil.

MrPudding · 27-11-2016 12:49PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No I'm sticking to the "basing your hopes on a statement made 20 years ago that you don't even know was accurate 20 years ago is stupid" spiel.

Now you haven't answered my question. How's the border poll campaign coming along? Any closer than you were 20 years ago?

We are not talking about statements made down the pub after a few pints. Have you actually read the agreement?

Right at the start, under “Constitutional Issue” (and later in the actual articles of the agreement) we have this (I will delete the ones not really relevant):

The Actual Document that was signed between the governments, you know, kind of like a treaty or international agreement wrote:

The participants endorse the commitment made by the British and Irish Governments that, in a new British-Irish Agreement replacing the Anglo-Irish Agreement, they will:

(i) recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a
majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status,
whether they prefer to continue to support the Union with Great Britain or
a sovereign united Ireland;
(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by
agreement between the two parts respectively and without external
impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of
consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a
united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be
achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a
majority of the people of Northern Ireland;
(iii)Not relevant;
(iv) affirm that if, in the future, the people of the island of Ireland exercise
their right of self-determination on the basis set out in sections (i) and (ii)
above to bring about a united Ireland, it will be a binding obligation on
both Governments to introduce and support in their respective Parliaments
legislation to give effect to that wish;
(v) affirm that whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the
people of Northern Ireland, the power of the sovereign government with
jurisdiction there shall be exercised with rigorous impartiality on behalf of
all the people in the diversity of their identities and traditions and shall be
founded on the principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil,
political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all
citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the
identity, ethos, and aspirations of both communities;
(vi)Not relevant.

Now if you could explain how it is possible to interpret the above as anything other than the British giving up any interest in the affairs of NI, other than they had their fingers crossed as they signed a legally binding international treaty, then I am all ears. I would be particularly interested to hear you explain in particular, that they will “recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of NI” and “recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment”.

Then we can look at part 2, the draft legislation that says in the event of a vote for a UI the SoS “will lay before Parliament such proposals to give effect to that wish…” That kind of looks bad for you too… Can you explain that, while you are at it?

I have also had a look at the section that give the SoS the power to call a border poll. I think you are wrong there as well. The agreements allows that “The SoS may by order direct the holding of a poll for the purposes of section 1 on a date specified in the order.” It then goes on to say “Subject to paragraph 3 [para 3 simply says a poll can’t be within 7 years of the previous one], the SoS shall exercise the power under paragraph 1 if at it time it appears to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that NI should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland” I think you are wrong about this too. There is nothing to suggest the SoS’s power to call the poll is in any way restricted or dependent on them providing evidence. The first part I quote tells us the SoS may “by order” direct that a poll takes place. “By order” means they have the power to do it by themselves. It does not require additional legislation, or a vote, or even a debate in parliament, it is simply a power conferred on the SoS to use as they see fit. In terms of when they can order it, it is simply when it appears to them a majority would vote to leave the union. There is no indication anywhere that they will need to justify or otherwise evidence this belief. I am sorry but you view that the SoS will have to come to parliament or the assembly with results of polls or some other evidence to support their belief is simply wishful thinking on your part. There is nothing in the GFA to suggest this is the case and everything that is in the GFA actually shows that it is not the case.

MrP

FrancieBrady · 27-11-2016 12:53PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nope whether a declaration underpinning a deal reflects reality is not the sane thing ad questioning whether the specifics if the deal itself will be honored. No.matter how much it may suit your argument. No amount of whining and calling me names will change that I'm afraid.

Maybe the declaration did reflect reality. Maybe it didn't. Maybe it did 20 years ago and doesn't any more. Maybe it didn't 20 years ago and it does now. My point is you don't know and basing your entire political hopes on it is... What's that word you used? "Pathetic"

Keep saying that, you'll believe it.

Right so you aren't any closer.

Your grandkids will be talking about "game changers" if they didn't grow up bored with granddad's irrelevant stories.

You accuse me of having my head in the sand but you have nothing to support your point of view except a declaration I've repeatedly destroyed.

Your argument basically boils down to "English unionists hate NI unionists and want rid of it, I have no evidence to support this view but NI unionists have their heads in the sand if they disagree. So based on my total lack of evidence unionists should start becoming nationalists because they're bigots if they don't" also "something something Arlene Foster"

Never change Francie, you be you. *Tiocfidh bhur lá!

*B'fhéidir, tá súil agat, lena dtoil.

We don't need to be 'closer'. It is always the exact same distance away. That was the victory of the GFA.

My argument boils down to being factually correct, based on an internationally binding agreement and a joint governmental Declaration (that has not been repudiated or revoked by subsequent governments) there in stark black and white.

What have you got again? What did you try and lie about? That 'one man' said something therefore the whole thing is false.

Carry on, I'm off to do something productive for the afternoon.

Iwasfrozen · 27-11-2016 01:04PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We don't need to be 'closer'. It is always the exact same distance away. That was the victory of the GFA.

My argument boils down to being factually correct, based on an internationally binding agreement and a joint governmental Declaration (that has not been repudiated or revoked by subsequent governments) there in stark black and white.

What have you got again? What did you try and lie about? That 'one man' said something therefore the whole thing is false.

Carry on, I'm off to do something productive for the afternoon.

Clearly you had nothing new to add so I can assume the only reason you responded was to get the last word.

Victory indeed. Republicans have served at her Majesty's pleasure for 20 years and a victory is nowhere in sight.

Keep fighting the good fight Brother, try to devine Tory intentions from a 20 year old statement but beware you're only deluding yourself. I don't think you'll heed my warning though, the delusion is nicer than reality

Iwasfrozen · 27-11-2016 01:13PM

MrPudding wrote: »

We are not talking about statements made down the pub after a few pints. Have you actually read the agreement?

Right at the start, under “Constitutional Issue” (and later in the actual articles of the agreement) we have this (I will delete the ones not really relevant):

Now if you could explain how it is possible to interpret the above as anything other than the British giving up any interest in the affairs of NI, other than they had their fingers crossed as they signed a legally binding international treaty, then I am all ears. I would be particularly interested to hear you explain in particular, that they will “recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of NI” and “recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment”.

Then we can look at part 2, the draft legislation that says in the event of a vote for a UI the SoS “will lay before Parliament such proposals to give effect to that wish…” That kind of looks bad for you too… Can you explain that, while you are at it?

I have also had a look at the section that give the SoS the power to call a border poll. I think you are wrong there as well. The agreements allows that “The SoS may by order direct the holding of a poll for the purposes of section 1 on a date specified in the order.” It then goes on to say “Subject to paragraph 3 [para 3 simply says a poll can’t be within 7 years of the previous one], the SoS shall exercise the power under paragraph 1 if at it time it appears to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that NI should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland” I think you are wrong about this too. There is nothing to suggest the SoS’s power to call the poll is in any way restricted or dependent on them providing evidence. The first part I quote tells us the SoS may “by order” direct that a poll takes place. “By order” means they have the power to do it by themselves. It does not require additional legislation, or a vote, or even a debate in parliament, it is simply a power conferred on the SoS to use as they see fit. In terms of when they can order it, it is simply when it appears to them a majority would vote to leave the union. There is no indication anywhere that they will need to justify or otherwise evidence this belief. I am sorry but you view that the SoS will have to come to parliament or the assembly with results of polls or some other evidence to support their belief is simply wishful thinking on your part. There is nothing in the GFA to suggest this is the case and everything that is in the GFA actually shows that it is not the case.

MrP

I've been through this (a lot) with Francie. It's a waste of time as his mind wasn't open to change and no disrespect but I have no intention of rehashing everything out again.

Needless to say the terms the UK laid down re NI where no different to the terms laid down for Scotland and Gibraltar. No independent unless the majority of people want independence.I find that to be a logical acceptable position.

FrancieBrady · 27-11-2016 05:25PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I've been through this (a lot) with Francie. It's a waste of time as his mind wasn't open to change and no disrespect but I have no intention of rehashing everything out again.

Needless to say the terms the UK laid down re NI where no different to the terms laid down for Scotland and Gibraltar. No independent unless the majority of people want independence.I find that to be a logical acceptable position.

There is an agreement equivalent to the GFA covering Scotland? Can you post it up there?

Fratton Fred · 27-11-2016 06:51PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The British have clearly laid out their intentions in the GFA and have stated precisely how they view NI. They have 'no selfish strategic or economic interest in Northern Ireland'.
Did you block the profound implications of that from your mind like most unionists have?

In London's eye you are something 'other', you could never imagine a British PM saying anything similar about Scotland or Wales but you could imagine them say it about ...ahem, 'colonies' like Gibraltar and Las Malvinas.

Time to face up to the realities for Unionism because Brexit was the last thing you guys needed to support!

ten quid says the union flag will be flying over Gibraltar, Londonderry and the Falklands in ten years time.

steddyeddy · 27-11-2016 07:10PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

ten quid says the union flag will be flying over Gibraltar, Londonderry and the Falklands in ten years time.

Ten quid will be worth a lot less in a few years mate

27-11-2016 07:37PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ten quid will be worth a lot less in a few years mate

I wouldn't bank on that

, it's been creeping back up against the Euro in recent days.
or should that be the Euro has been sliding down again.

Fratton Fred · 27-11-2016 07:52PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Ten quid will be worth a lot less in a few years mate

I bet you a tenner, it's worth ten quid.

FrancieBrady · 27-11-2016 07:55PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

ten quid says the union flag will be flying over Gibraltar, Londonderry and the Falklands in ten years time.

The Union Jack and the Tricolour are flying over Derry right now, legally and rightfully. The 'Fleg' people lost that battle, or didn't you hear that in the sand too?

There is no similar agreement governing Britain's relationship with Gibraltar or Las Malvinas.
They have not declared that they have 'no selfish strategic and economic interest' in either place anymore.
In fact one of the reasons they have retained Las Malvinas is that it may very well have strategic value with the development of Antarctic resources in the future.

27-11-2016 08:27PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

London can only call the poll when there is clear evidence the majority of people are in favor of leaving. Unfortunately for you no such evidence exists.

So no, this doesn't depend on London one iota.

Given that London is subsidising the spongers by £10billion per annum, it truly is delusional to come here and contend "London has no say". Nobody has more say than the British government in whether unionists continue to support British rule or, like their 18th century ancestors, decide to support Irish independence and a separate Irish parliament once again. Money talks.

27-11-2016 08:47PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

ten quid says the union flag will be flying over Gibraltar, Londonderry and the Falklands in ten years time.

You'd want to offer a real currency rather than that rapidly declining joke.

Wall Street Journal: Pound Drops to Three-Decade Low Against Dollar on Brexit Concerns

Pound completes worst four-day performance since Brexit vote

How you're going to finance your dreams of holding on to these relics of your Empire will be entertaining.

Brexit, all changed, changed utterly...

Fratton Fred · 27-11-2016 09:40PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You'd want to offer a real currency rather than that rapidly declining joke.

Wall Street Journal: Pound Drops to Three-Decade Low Against Dollar on Brexit Concerns

Pound completes worst four-day performance since Brexit vote

How you're going to finance your dreams of holding on to these relics of your Empire will be entertaining.

Brexit, all changed, changed utterly...

Have you got any articles published within the last month?

Fratton Fred · 27-11-2016 09:42PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Union Jack and the Tricolour are flying over Derry right now, legally and rightfully. The 'Fleg' people lost that battle, or didn't you hear that in the sand too?

They can fly any flag they like in Londonderry, it is still part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland though.

Iwasfrozen · 27-11-2016 10:29PM

If Marine Le Pen is elected in France she has promised to call for a referendum on French membership of the Union.

If the referendum passes, (and remember no one thought Brexit would pass based on polls) then the EU effectively ceases to exist as we know it today without two of it's three big players.

The UK would be in a relatively very strong position having already left the crumbling Union. The Irish exclave not so much.

FrancieBrady · 27-11-2016 10:35PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

They can fly any flag they like in Londonderry, it is still part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland though.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain has no selfish strategic or economic interest in the NI bit anymore and has signed an international agreement enshrining that and will cede the land and its people if a set of circumstances decree it.
A situation pertaining to no other part or colony of the UK.

Get the Pimms in and enjoy the last days of the empire and most likely the UK itself. Dead kingdom walking.

FrancieBrady · 27-11-2016 10:44PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If Marine Le Pen is elected in France she has promised to call for a referendum on French membership of the Union.

If the referendum passes, (and remember no one thought Brexit would pass based on polls) then the EU effectively ceases to exist as we know it today without two of it's three big players.

The UK would be in a relatively very strong position having already left the crumbling Union. The Irish exclave not so much.

True, but we will deal with that when it happens. Are the French so myopic and imperialistically traumatized. Can't see it myself.

Fratton Fred · 27-11-2016 10:49PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The United Kingdom of Great Britain has no selfish strategic or economic interest in the NI bit anymore and has signed an international agreement enshrining that and will cede the land and its people if a set of circumstances decree it.
A situation pertaining to no other part or colony of the UK.

Get the Pimms in and enjoy the last days of the empire and most likely the UK itself. Dead kingdom walking.

it's not a set of circumstances, it is if the majority of the people want it.

And so, ten years after the GFA was signed, the people of Londonderry still pay their taxes to Her Majesty.

Iwasfrozen · 27-11-2016 11:04PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If Marine Le Pen is elected in France she has promised to call for a referendum on French membership of the Union.

If the referendum passes, (and remember no one thought Brexit would pass based on polls) then the EU effectively ceases to exist as we know it today without two of it's three big players.

The UK would be in a relatively very strong position having already left the crumbling Union. The Irish exclave not so much.

True, but we will deal with that when it happens. Are the French so myopic and imperialistically traumatized. Can't see it myself.

No of course you don't.

The funny thing (for me) is, you're gloating about what you perceive to be the break up of the British Union when in reality it seem the European Union is in more immediate danger.

Britain leaving only creates an Irish exclave, France leaving would make an exclave of the entire Iberian peninsula. Two countries that are already facing destabilization at home due to massive youth unemployment rates.

Maybe if France leaves they start to reconsider their positions?

FrancieBrady · 27-11-2016 11:07PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it's not a set of circumstances, it is if the majority of the people want it.

And so, ten years after the GFA was signed, the people of Londonderry still pay their taxes to Her Majesty.

40 years ago they were being shot in the street.
20 years ago they didn't have power sharing
10 years ago they were only able to accept the police force.
5 years ago a Southern FG Taoiseach publicly stating that it makes sense to reunite with them would have been unthinkable.

Time changes everything Fred.

FrancieBrady · 27-11-2016 11:12PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No of course you don't.

The funny thing (for me) is, you're gloating about what you perceive to be the break up of the British Union when in reality it seem the European Union is in more immediate danger.

Britain leaving only creates an Irish exclave, France leaving would make an exclave of the entire Iberian peninsula. Two countries that are already facing destabilization at home due to massive youth unemployment rates.

Maybe if France leaves they start to reconsider their positions?

I have accepted the UK is in the process of breaking up (I give it circa 10 yes) long before Brexit.
There are too many people I know who will be affected by that to gloat. Better to spend that energy making the best of the inevitable.

Iwasfrozen · 27-11-2016 11:21PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No of course you don't.

The funny thing (for me) is, you're gloating about what you perceive to be the break up of the British Union when in reality it seem the European Union is in more immediate danger.

Britain leaving only creates an Irish exclave, France leaving would make an exclave of the entire Iberian peninsula. Two countries that are already facing destabilization at home due to massive youth unemployment rates.

Maybe if France leaves they start to reconsider their positions?

I have accepted the UK is in the process of breaking up (I give it circa 10 yes) long before Brexit.
There are too many people I know who will be affected by that to gloat. Better to spend that energy making the best of the inevitable.

You mean you've been masturbating over the thought long before Brexit.

I'm a good deal more confident than ten quid that the UK will have its current borders in ten years. Scotland is an economic basket case and the other Celtic nations are worse.

Fratton Fred · 27-11-2016 11:36PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Time changes everything Fred.

It does, Martin McGuinness having tea with the Queen, Gerry accepting the title of Crown Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead.

Who'd have thought it.

FrancieBrady · 27-11-2016 11:52PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It does, Martin McGuinness having tea with the Queen, Gerry accepting the title of Crown Steward and Bailiff of the Manor of Northstead.

Who'd have thought it.

Exactly.
But in Fred's world nothing changes.

Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

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