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Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

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Comments

  • #2612
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,675 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Talk of it will never go away but that's all it has been, talk.

    Of course.
    But it is who is talking about it that will ultimately make the real debate begin.
    The UK will want this debate soon as they look under the bed for spare cash.


  • #2613
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Of course.
    But it is who is talking about it that will ultimately make the real debate begin.
    The UK will want this debate soon as they look under the bed for spare cash.

    There's no debate to have until a border poll has been passed.


  • #2614
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,675 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    There's no debate to have until a border poll has been passed.

    That could change overnight. It is just an opinion really. All depends on the needs of London at any given time.


  • #2615
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    That could change overnight. It is just an opinion really. All depends on the needs of London at any given time.

    Doesn't depend on London one iota. It's an independent NI issue whether a poll will be called and if so whether it will pass.


  • #2616
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,675 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Doesn't depend on London one iota. It's an independent NI issue whether a poll will be called and if so whether it will pass.

    :D Who's in dreamland now?


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  • #2617
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    :D Who's in dreamland now?

    Point out one thing I've wrote that's wrong.


  • #2618
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,675 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Point out one thing I've wrote that's wrong.

    It is in the gift of the Secretary of State. Who appoints the Secretary of State?


  • #2619
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Doesn't depend on London one iota. It's an independent NI issue whether a poll will be called and if so whether it will pass.

    Surly this logic should apply to brexit aswell..... Otherwise your being hypocritical??




    Or do people wishes only apply when you choose.... Sort of dictatorship Territory there :)


  • #2620
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,675 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Surly this logic should apply to brexit aswell..... Otherwise your being hypocritical??




    Or do people wishes only apply when you choose.... Sort of dictatorship Territory there :)

    There was need for a Brexit vote, Cameron could have continued to say that there was no need for one.
    But other issues made one possible.
    Same thing applies to a border poll, another issue could see one happening.


  • #2621
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It is in the gift of the Secretary of State. Who appoints the Secretary of State?
    So no, you can't point out anything wrong I wrote. Typical.

    A border poll can only be called when there is clear evidence the majority of people would vote in favor. Unfortunately for you no such evidence exists.


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  • #2622
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Surly this logic should apply to brexit aswell..... Otherwise your being hypocritical??

    Or do people wishes only apply when you choose.... Sort of dictatorship Territory there :)

    Gonna have to be a bit clearer there Francie. I can't keep up with your "unique" logic.


  • #2623
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,675 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    So no, you can't point out anything wrong I wrote. Typical.

    A border poll can only be called when there is clear evidence the majority of people would vote in favor. Unfortunately for you no such evidence exists.


    You said London has no say in this. That is ridiculously wrong.
    The SOS only has to call it. They don't need to show any evidence.


  • #2624
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,675 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Gonna have to be a bit clearer there Francie. I can't keep up with your "unique" logic.
    ?


  • #2625
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You said London has no say in this. That is ridiculously wrong.
    The SOS only has to call it. They don't need to show any evidence.

    London can only call the poll when there is clear evidence the majority of people are in favor of leaving. Unfortunately for you no such evidence exists.

    So no, this doesn't depend on London one iota.


  • #2626
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,675 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    London can only call the poll when there is clear evidence the majority of people are in favor of leaving. Unfortunately for you no such evidence exists.

    So no, London has no say.

    And I am saying they don't need to 'show' any evidence.
    Look at Cameron, he kept saying that there was no significant need to have a Brexit referendum, cue other issues and suddenly there was one.

    Exactly the same change of mind could happen here. Who knows what deals might be done for Dublin's support in Europe for instance.

    There are no absolutes when the SOS can operate on an 'opinion'.


  • #2627
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Gonna have to be a bit clearer there Francie. I can't keep up with your "unique" logic.

    You said quite rightly London has no say in the norths future and votes there have nothing to do with london



    Care to explain how this doesn't apply to brexit??


  • #2628
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    London can only call the poll when there is clear evidence the majority of people are in favor of leaving. Unfortunately for you no such evidence exists.

    So no, this doesn't depend on London one iota.
    Call a poll in the morning and see...... Surly that's the most accurate info you need?


  • #2629
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,675 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Call a poll in the morning and see...... Surly that's the most accurate info you need?
    It's not the poll they are afraid off, it's the debate and what that will mean for the next poll.


  • #2630
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It's not the poll they are afraid off, it's the debate and what that will mean for the next poll.

    The next poll needs nothing.... It's the one 7years down the road is the winner

    Kenny is being quite astute politically here.... Who is advising him in 30+ years barely a word in help of nationalism... Now he's pushing for reunification



    Irony shouldn't be lost on anyone if fg deliver a united Ireland...... It could completely decimate whatever nationalist the vote ff hold


  • #2631
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    And I am saying they don't need to 'show' any evidence.
    Look at Cameron, he kept saying that there was no significant need to have a Brexit referendum, cue other issues and suddenly there was one.

    Exactly the same change of mind could happen here. Who knows what deals might be done for Dublin's support in Europe for instance.

    There are no absolutes when the SOS can operate on an 'opinion'.
    They do need evidence read the wording. This is why I say you're dreaming.

    "Subject to paragraph 3, the Secretary of State shall exercise the power
    under paragraph 1 if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of
    those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be
    part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland"

    He can only call a referendum if it appears likely to him (a position he'll need evidence to justify) that the majority of people favor a united Ireland. I reiterate no such evidence exists.

    You also have no evidence to support your implied view that the UK favors Irish unification.


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  • #2632
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Call a poll in the morning and see...... Surly that's the most accurate info you need?

    They need evidence to call the poll. ;)

    This is the bad deal SF signed up for.


  • #2633
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,675 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    They do need evidence read the wording. This is why I say you're dreaming.

    "Subject to paragraph 3, the Secretary of State shall exercise the power
    under paragraph 1 if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of
    those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be
    part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland"

    He can only call a referendum if it appears likely to him (a position he'll need evidence to justify) that the majority of people favor a united Ireland. I reiterate no such evidence exists.

    You also have no evidence to support your implied view that the UK favors Irish unification.


    It appears likely to me that a majority would support a UI.


    Later on: Oops I was wrong.
    OR
    I told you so.

    He/she does not need to present any evidence other than his/her opinion. Why, if he/she could prove there was a majority would there be need for a poll ffs? :rolleyes:


  • #2634
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    They need evidence to call the poll. ;)

    This is the bad deal SF signed up for.

    Hmm.... They don't.... They only need secretary of state to be of the opinion that one needs to be called

    Nowhere deo it say evidence is required??



    Nonetheless the north voted majority by a sizable margin to remain within the eu at the last available poll..... The only option now available for them is to be part of a united Ireland within the eu

    Draw from this what you wish :)


    Or do we disregard democratic votes that don't suit your seriously flawed narrative?


  • #2635
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It appears likely to me that a majority would support a UI.


    Later on: Oops I was wrong.
    OR
    I told you so.

    He/she does not need to present any evidence other than his/her opinion. Why, if he/she could prove there was a majority would there be need for a poll ffs? :rolleyes:

    That opinion needs to be based on evidence. Otherwise unionists in the UK would shoot his recommendation.

    That's the catch 22 republicans signed up for, ask them.


  • #2636
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    That opinion needs to be based on evidence. Otherwise unionists in the UK would shoot his recommendation.

    That's the catch 22 republicans signed up for, ask them.

    It doesn't need being based on evidence of only on opinion.... You just making shte up now :pac:


  • #2637
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    Hmm.... They don't.... They only need secretary of state to be of the opinion that one needs to be called

    Nowhere deo it say evidence is required??



    Nonetheless the north voted majority by a sizable margin to remain within the eu at the last available poll..... The only option now available for them is to be part of a united Ireland within the eu

    Draw from this what you wish :)


    Or do we disregard democratic votes that don't suit your seriously flawed narrative?

    And that opinion needs to be based on evidence or unionists in the executive will shoot it down.


  • #2638
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    It doesn't need being based on evidence of only on opinion.... You just making shte up now :pac:

    The SOS can't pull an opinion out of his arse against existing evidence and expect it to be accepted by the government.


  • #2639
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,675 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    And that opinion needs to be based on evidence or unionists in the executive will shoot it down.

    Could you point to anywhere in the clause you posted where it even says 'evidence'?


  • #2640
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    And that opinion needs to be based on evidence or unionists in the executive will shoot it down.

    So the evidence that the majority wish to remain in the European union and cam only so through a united Ireland is not evidence enough???



    :pac: :pac:
    There's no more accurate poll that the ballot box.... Just because it's working against you here :D


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  • #2641
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I have always been of the opinion that it won't necessarily be developments on this island that will bring about a UI.
    The attitude shift required to have a FG Taoiseach talking about this is quite seismic imo.
    How far away are we from having a proper 2 island debate and detailed look at what is involved?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/kenny-says-brexit-could-bring-about-united-ireland-1.2881284
    You're projecting your wishes onto reality. A UI is no closer to happening now than it was when the gfa was signed.

    There's also no debate to have, not until the majority in NI vote to join us anyway.
    Remember 1690 ;)

    The secretary of state can only call for a border poll. Very doubtful anytime soon.


This discussion has been closed.
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