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21% think sex without consent is OK in some situations - poll

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    #32
    Donal55
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donal55


    Mr. FoggPatches wrote: »
    Anyone that's ever woken up with their gf/wife on top of them will know that there are circumstances where its not just OK, its fantastic.

    '...Gf & wife on top of them... '
    FYP.


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    #33
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,122 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    anna080 wrote: »
    Why?

    Im a male in my 40s with a young daughter. I fear for her and I base that on when I was growing up and my ability to keep up with modern day sexual trends. Therefore I will educate her bluntly in relation to sexual behaviour. Threre is no point in being blase and saying what will be will be. The world is changing rapidly, from the easy access to porn, the making of amateur porn via available tech and the resulting revenge porn. And that is lterally the tip of the iceberg.

    There are so many aspects to sexual behaviour these days, that got caught up in a changing society over the course of a short timespan, that any parent needs to keep an eye on the ball. Its still a scary prospect though.


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    #34
    ligerdub
    Registered Users Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭ligerdub


    Every other day there is a new topic on the topic of rape. Different titles, same discussion.


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    #35
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    anna080 wrote: »
    Having studies statistics at length in college, I guarantee you that the questions in this survey were deliberately ambiguous in order to produce a shocking result and allow the newspaper to push a certain agenda.

    Exactly.

    The questions were most likely framed in a way that defined 'sexual consent' as there being a presence of a 'Yes'. There was a lecturer in Louise O'Neil's recent 'Asking For It' TV show that, when speaking to her class, said "'Consent is not merely the absence of a no, but the presence of a 'Yes''" and on that basis and by those definitions, many people are bound to then say sex without "consent" is sometimes okay.


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    #36
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Mr. FoggPatches wrote: »
    Imagine having sex with a girl while watching 30 drug addled men pound each other.
    Bit ghey if you ask me, but to each their own.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTpXymuwxNs


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    #37
    Dr Jakub
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 314 ✭✭Dr Jakub


    I'd be one of the 21% but that's because in reality people have sex without both clearly saying 'yes I want this'. We're humans, not robots.


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    #38
    Ineedaname
    Closed Accounts Posts: 369 ✭✭Ineedaname


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Yes. I read the poll. What was unclear. No consent is not talking about role play or non verbal consent being given as both those obviously involve consent being given. I can't see the issue.

    The poll doesn't define what "sex without consent" is. It could mean someone saying no or it could mean someone not explicitly saying yes. Sex during the former is obviously not okay. The latter is a much greyer area.


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    #39
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Honestly if that were the case I would believe the respondents need English lessons.
    Then so be it. If questions can be potentially misinterpreted, then the validity of the survey is called into question.


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    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Zaph wrote: »
    On the one hand it's good that we're lower than the EU average, but on the other it still means that a fifth of the population essentially think that rape or sexual assault is OK under certain circumstances. Wtf is wrong with those people?

    Honestly though we don't know what the questions were, what they defined as consent, so it's a bit much to say that 20% say that rape and sexual assault is OK, when you're basing it on incomplete information.


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    #41
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,164 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    Exactly.

    The questions were most likely framed in a way that defined 'sexual consent' as there being a presence of a 'Yes'. There was a lecturer in Louise O'Neil's recent 'Asking For It' TV show that, when speaking to her class, said "'Consent is not merely the absence of a no, but the presence of a 'Yes''" and on that basis and by those definitions, many people are bound to then say sex without "consent" is sometimes okay.

    It depends though. If someone asked you if "Sex without consent is ok" and told you that was all the information you had to go on and you had to do a yes/no answer then what do you think your answer would be?

    Is it a statement you'd feel fine saying without clarification?

    Besides the fact is that although you could be finicky about some of the questions there are some that are obvious and clear.
    QB10 Some people believe that having sexual intercourse without consent may be justified in certain situations. Do you think this applies to the
    following circumstances?
    (SHOW SCREEN - READ OUT - MULTIPLE ANSWERS POSSIBLE)
    Wearing revealing, provocative or sexy clothing
    Being drunk or using drugs
    Flirting beforehand
    Not clearly saying no or physically fighting back
    Being out walking alone at night,
    Having several sexual partners
    Voluntarily going home with someone, for example after a party or date
    If the assailant does not realise what they were doing
    If the assailant regrets his actions
    None of these
    Refusal (SPONTANEOUS)
    Don't know

    It's never ok to think that because someone is out walking alone it's acceptable to have sex without consent.

    In the ones I didn't bold, we may come up scenarios where it's ok, but in general it's wrong.


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    #42
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Grayson wrote: »
    It depends though. If someone asked you if "Sex without consent is ok" and told you that was all the information you had to go on and you had to do a yes/no answer then what do you think your answer would be?

    But we don't know that was all the information they had.

    I live in Ireland. I highly fcuking doubt 20% of of the population believe sexual assault / rape can sometimes be okay, which is how certain sections of the media are now spinning this.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/more-than-one-in-five-irish-people-think-sex-without-consent-is-fine-in-certain-circumstances-35245174.html


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    #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Yea, regretting sex after the fact doesn't mean you didn't consent to it.


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    #44
    HellSquirrel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭HellSquirrel


    There's another way to consider it though and that is is it not a little horrible that this situation has to exist at all? For the vast majority of people, a yes is clearly indicated by both partners being into it*. Honest mistakes can occur, but in general, shouldn't we be asking why are women so socially inhibited from sex, be it a repressive morality or the consequences of pregnancy. Make no mistake about it, women generally are on the losing end of the consequences of sexual freedom.

    So, even if that's the root cause of part of this long-running and bitter social issue is that, then shouldn't that be changed? And anyway, regardless of what side anyone's on, anyone who answers that sexual intercourse without consent can be justified by walking alone at night to any question bar "what does a rapist think?" has serious misconceptions.


    *Can anyone come up with a way to sanely legislate "into it" in a way that can't be weaseled around? "Consent" is the best of a poor lot of legalese synonyms.


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    #45
    05eaftqbrs9jlh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,104 ✭✭✭05eaftqbrs9jlh


    Edit: just to say I realise one instance does not a viable example make, however...

    I was not at all surprised by the outcome of this, however leading the questions. I was having a drink in my friend's house during the summer and there were a good few people, strangers and friends, milling around in different groups. I was tired but not really that drunk, I was leaning on my hand with my elbow on the arm of the couch and my eyes must have lolled closed. Next thing I knew, the total stranger beside me (he'd been talking to a different group) has one hand between my legs, one up my shirt and is eating the face off me.

    Like I said, I wasn't drunk so I reacted quite violently to this totally unexpected situation, basically smacking him in the face first and then kneeing him in the crotch as he'd almost climbed on top on me. Everyone ran over and dragged him off bleeding and hunched from me and I shouted that I'd closed my eyes for a second and he'd started molesting me.

    He maintained that I had been flirting with him (I hadn't even spoken to him) and that I had made a pass at him first. My friends all wanted to call the GardaÃ႒­ but he started shouting that he'd have me for assault and I just wanted him out of the house before I did some actual damage.

    After he left, we established that nobody knew who he was and he didn't really appear to have come to the party with anyone, just sneaked back after the pub. We were all pretty sober but it just goes to show there are actual literal predators out there who are so charmless and entitled that they just wait for a sign of weakness and pounce.

    I'm glad I smacked him and sack tapped him and I only wish my friends HADN'T come to my assistance because I would certainly have grievously harmed him, had I been allowed to defend myself further. I'm unexpectedly strong and wily in a violent situations because I grew up dodging blows and anticipating assaults. To my mind, physical force is the only deterrent for these people who use their size advantage to push themselves on women. Maybe if I'd broken his face open he might think twice about the next time he molests somebody.


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    #46
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    KERSPLAT! wrote: »
    Without the questions for the poll that was conducted it's hard to have any meaningful discussion regarding it tbh. Polls and results can be twisted.

    Yep.

    Though the idea that a woman wearing short clothes is up for it, is still common enough.

    And before the "but wimmin" crowd nit pick, yes, women can be as bad for these attitudes.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    K-9 wrote: »
    Yep.

    Though the idea that a woman wearing short clothes is up for it, is still common enough.

    And before the "but wimmin" crowd nit pick, yes, women can be as bad for these attitudes.

    Oddly, according to this poll, it was actually women that believed this more than men.


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    #48
    tritium
    Registered Users Posts: 7,437 ✭✭✭tritium


    seamus wrote: »
    Crossposting...

    The report itself at the conclusion states that the results of the survey are a reason to be cautiously optimistic because attitudes are improving.

    So despite the fact things are getting better and Ireland being 7th best out of 28, some quarters have decided to paint this as a shocking and terrible figure.

    I do also have an issue with that specific question in that it's too vague;


    So two examples there where it could easily be vague;
    1. "Having several sexual partners". Someone could easily read that and think it means threesomes or swinging. And that "without consent" means "without specifically asking if they want to have sex".

    2. "If the assailant does not realise what they were doing", Is incredibly vague. Does the assailant think they have consent? Or is the assailant too drunk to give consent themselves? Or is the assailant asleep? Because if it's the case that both people are blackout drunk, then I'm kind of on the side of "justified" in that scenario, since neither party are capable of consent.

    The question realistically should begin with a statement clarifying what "consent" is. And also using the word "acceptable" instead of the word "justified". That makes it a much more definitive expression of meaning.

    Full report is here;
    http://ec.europa.eu/COMMFrontOffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/ResultDoc/download/DocumentKy/75837

    One stat I found most interesting were the age profiles. People over 55 and under 25 were the most likely to find non-consensual sex acceptable in some circumstances. This would reflect old attitudes in the former, and immature/inexperienced attitudes in the latter.
    For women in particular, the young and the old were a third more likely than the 25-55 age group to say that it was acceptable in certain circumstances.

    At least two of those scenarios in the question that was posted would likely form a solid basis for absence of any guilty intent (mens rea?) in any trial post event.

    I guess theres a degree of sympatising that someone may feel they didnt consent but not equating that with rape in a legal definition in every instance

    Tbh if the question was really framed this way then the survey is really being designed to get a particular outcome


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    #49
    Walter2016
    Closed Accounts Posts: 522 ✭✭✭Walter2016


    Surveys surveys surveys

    If people were to believed they also eat 40 pancakes on pancake Tuesday, get 35 Valentines cards, drink to oblivion every night and shag from the age of 10.

    People are so sick of "surveys" than many respondants treat them as a joke and provide equally joke answers.


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    #50
    HellSquirrel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭HellSquirrel


    Walter2016 wrote: »
    Surveys surveys surveys

    If people were to believed they also eat 40 pancakes on pancake Tuesday, get 35 Valentines cards, drink to oblivion every night and shag from the age of 10.

    People are so sick of "surveys" than many respondants treat them as a joke and provide equally joke answers.

    Er..would you really imply you were a rapist just for the lulz on a survey?


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    #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Michaela Rich Spat wrote: »
    Not at all surprised by the outcome of this. I was having a drink in my friend's house during the summer and there were a good few people, strangers and friends, milling around in different groups. I was tired but not really that drunk, I was leaning on my hand with my elbow on the arm of the couch and my eyes must have lolled closed. Next thing I knew, the total stranger beside me (he'd been talking to a different group) has one hand between my legs, one up my shirt and is eating the face off me.

    Like I said, I wasn't drunk so I reacted quite violently to this totally unexpected situation, basically smacking him in the face first and then kneeing him in the crotch as he'd almost climbed on top on me. Everyone ran over and dragged him off bleeding and hunched from me and I shouted that I'd closed my eyes for a second and he'd started molesting me.

    He maintained that I had been flirting with him (I hadn't even spoken to him) and that I had made a pass at him first. My friends all wanted to call the Gardaí but he started shouting that he'd have me for assault and I just wanted him out of the house before I did some actual damage.

    After he left, we established that nobody knew who he was and he didn't really appear to have come to the party with anyone, just sneaked back after the pub. We were all pretty sober but it just goes to show there are actual literal predators out there who are so charmless and entitled that they just wait for a sign of weakness and pounce.

    I'm glad I smacked him and sack tapped him and I only wish my friends HADN'T come to my assistance because I would certainly have grievously harmed him, had I been allowed to defend myself further. I'm unexpectedly strong and wily in a violent situations because I grew up dodging blows and anticipating assaults. To my mind, physical force is the only deterrent for these people who use their size advantage to push themselves on women. Maybe if I'd broken his face open he might think twice about the next time he molests somebody.

    I'm really sorry that happened to you, I hope you're okay.

    I do think the guards should have been called but I know it's different on the spot at the time. Still, chilling to think some random opportunist predator was sitting in a room of strangers, biding his time.

    That assault completely warranted you getting him off you by any means possible.


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    #52
    Guffy
    Registered Users Posts: 8,045 ✭✭✭Guffy


    Mr. FoggPatches wrote: »
    Anyone that's ever woken up with their gf/wife on top of them will know that there are circumstances where its not just OK, its fantastic.

    Flip it around and your going to jail


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    #53
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,442 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    The survey's here:

    http://ec.europa.eu/COMMFrontOffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/Survey/getSurveyDetail/yearFrom/2016/yearTo/2016/surveyKy/2115

    They don't define what they mean by consent, which is pretty crucial. In some multiple choice questions along the lines of "is it OK to have sex when" they give "they said no" as one of the answers, so it's not too difficult to think them not saying anything about consent at all might be what they were saying was an OK situation.

    Can't read too much without that being more clearly defined. What's interesting though is how the figure varies from country to country.


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    #54
    HellSquirrel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭HellSquirrel


    TheChizler wrote: »
    The survey's here:

    http://ec.europa.eu/COMMFrontOffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/Survey/getSurveyDetail/yearFrom/2016/yearTo/2016/surveyKy/2115

    They don't define what they mean by consent, which is pretty crucial. In some multiple choice questions along the lines of "is it OK to have sex when" they give "they said no" as one of the answers, so it's not too difficult to think them not saying anything about consent at all might be what they were saying was an OK situation.

    Can't read too much without that being more clearly defined. What's interesting though is how the figure varies from country to country.

    I think that is a major problem. No-one really wants to actually -add- confusion to this situation. Pretty much everyone thinks rape is bad. We're all fairly down on those two points. But how to define it? How do you define "both partners are into it" without court cases by people weaselling around the term? Serious question, can anyone think of a better way to explain common sense approach to sex where the basic idea of protection against sexual assault and protection against unfair accusations are built in? Because "consent", while a good starting point, is still a very unspecific term.


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    #55
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,187 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    All those public surveys are a joke. As another person said they can use ambiguous questions but even then asking random people can always give a skewed result.

    Like say I wanted to run a survey about how eating meat is bad. So I "ask people" but of course if I stand outside vegetarian restaurants or shops to carry it out it'll be a bit skewed right ;)


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    #56
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,258 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Honestly if that were the case I would believe the respondents need English lessons. The intent is clear. The only reason to call them vague is to muddy the water. I.e. There is a post above talking about what about role play non consensual sex? That is just ridiculous to think that is what is being covered here. If you hear a question asking if it is wrong to kill people you don't go wondering if it is assisted suicide.

    If you asked me "Is it acceptable to kill someone in certain circumstances" that would be the first thing I'd think of, followed by self-defence, to protect my family, war, the death penalty...


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    #57
    ligerdub
    Registered Users Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭ligerdub


    Yeah that poll is total horse****.

    Moving on.


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    #58
    Shergar6
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Shergar6


    Well --- a lot of men are going around raping women. I'm not surprised at all.

    When the POTUS thinks it's ok to grab women by their privates when it takes his fancy then we know society is fcked up. A lot of men who spout the 'treat women with respect' spiel are assholes themselves. Wasn't one film blogger outed recently as having done the very same thing even though he went hard on Trump for his comments? http://http://variety.com/2016/film/news/devin-faraci-birth-movies-death-sexual-assault-1201885262/

    It's like with pedophiles, nobody suspects the nice, charitable pillar of the community that we trust our kids to. But obviously a lot of men get off on hurting/demeaning women - even the ones they are with....

    And the attitude that 'they were asking for it' doesn't even need to be discussed. We all know somebody who has said it or implied it. 'why was she so drunk', why did she wear a short skirt' why did walk on her own, why did she take a lift with him, why why why at the girl. Meanwhile the chap gets to blame drink, child hood traumas etc - or even sleepwalking in one case a few years ago!


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    #59
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    There's a serious need for sex ed overhaul that really emphasises learning about consent.

    Whatever about this particular survey, there's real confusion. Many, many many rapes are carried out every year by people who would believe that they believe that sex without consent is wrong. Ah sure OK so she couldn't keep my name straight she was that drunk, but it's not like she said no! Yeah he was pushing me off but he's a lad, he seemed to get into it after a while so it's fine! Maybe in retrospect she'd frozen up and wasn't giving me any positive feedback, but what was I supposed to do, CHECK? We were already in bed together so it's not like it was rape rape.

    So far in the thread we've had men can't be raped, it's important that we emphasise again and again that changing your mind after sex and crying rape is bad (because what, that happens all the time?), and of course apropos of nothing explaining that it's women who hold most of these views because at this point AH doesn't know how to even do a thread if it's not framed as men vs women. It's like an episode of George Hook without the charm.


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    #60
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    The results are strange to say the least.

    21% said sex without consent is acceptable in certain situations.
    11% said being drunk or on drugs justifies sex without consent.

    However...

    97% said violence against women was not acceptable.
    99% said that sending unwanted texts/pictures of a sexual nature was wrong.
    97% said making lewd remarks in public was wrong.
    99% thought that making unwanted physical contact with a colleague was wrong.

    I would like to know exactly how they defined consent for the study. Those figures are all over the shop. Going on whats there, some who viewed lewd remarks as being wrong, would have been fine with sex without consent.


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    #61
    osmiumartist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 916 ✭✭✭osmiumartist


    QB10 Some people believe that having sexual intercourse without consent may be justified in certain situations. Do you think this applies to the
    following circumstances?
    (SHOW SCREEN - READ OUT - MULTIPLE ANSWERS POSSIBLE)
    Wearing revealing, provocative or sexy clothing
    Being drunk or using drugs
    Flirting beforehand
    Not clearly saying no or physically fighting back
    Being out walking alone at night,
    Having several sexual partners
    Voluntarily going home with someone, for example after
    a party or date
    If the assailant does not realise what they were doing
    If the assailant regrets his actions
    None of these
    Refusal (SPONTANEOUS)
    Don't know
    BS question. It actually makes it sound like you are being asked why other people would think these things mean consent isn't required.
    Whole thing reeks of agenda.


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