21% think sex without consent is OK in some situations - poll

The flying mouse

21% of Irish, and 27% of EU respondents, think that having sexual intercourse without consent is OK in certain situations.

A small number of Irish people also thought that walking home alone, wearing certain clothing and going home with someone made intercourse without consent acceptable.

11% of Irish people surveyed said that being drunk or on drugs justifies sex without consent.

9% said that intercourse without consent is justified if a person voluntarily goes home with someone.

9% also said that sexual intercourse without consent is justified if the person is wearing revealing, provocative or sexy clothing.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1125/834358-sex-consent-day-to-end-violence-against-women/

I am a bit speechless at this, Surely if a person does not want to have sex, no matter what there wearing or even if they go back to house with them they don't have to ?

Am I reading this right ? open to correction.

midnight city

Stealing from another poster, who stole from another poster -

midnight city wrote: »

I stole this from another poster:

"they havent published that the survey actually shows that WOMEN actually believe non consensual sex is justified in more cases than men (by 78% to 74%)
and 11% of women (according to this survey) actually believe that non consensual sex is justified in the case of "wearing revealing clothing" as compared to 7% of men

it also shows that ireland, as a whole, believe non consensual sex is unjustified in all cases in a greater majority than the rest of europe (76% compared to 68%)"

Frigating

It depends on the meaning of "no consent". If it means one party expressly said no to sex, or wasn't able to say no, then obviously that's never ok. If it means two people met in a club, went home and had sex, without anyone asking "do you consent to sex", that's more of a grey area and depends on the exact circumstances. In most cases though, if you willingly go home with someone, have consensual sex, then turn around and say it wasn't consensual, you are a scumbag.

Gatling

I actually fear for my daughter's growing up ,

retro:electro

Having studies statistics at length in college, I guarantee you that the questions in this survey were deliberately ambiguous in order to produce a shocking result and allow the newspaper to push a certain agenda.

Mr. FoggPatches

Anyone that's ever woken up with their gf/wife on top of them will know that there are circumstances where its not just OK, its fantastic.

Christy42

Frigating wrote: »

It depends on the meaning of "no consent". If it means one party expressly said no to sex, or wasn't able to say no, then obviously that's never ok. If it means two people met in a club, went home and had sex, without anyone asking "do you consent to sex", that's more of a grey area and depends on the exact circumstances. In most cases though, if you willingly go home with someone, have consensual sex, then turn around and say it wasn't consensual, you are a scumbag.

The first meaning seems pretty well implied. It is certainly what I would take from the question.

retro:electro

Gatling wrote: »

I actually fear for my daughter's growing up ,

Why?

Zaph

On the one hand it's good that we're lower than the EU average, but on the other it still means that a fifth of the population essentially think that rape or sexual assault is OK under certain circumstances. Wtf is wrong with those people?

The flying mouse

Mr. FoggPatches wrote: »

Anyone that's ever woken up with their gf/wife on top of them will know that there are circumstances where its not just OK, its fantastic.

I know what your saying there, But what about if its not fantastic and you just not in the humour, You don't want to have sex, You have a headache ? Do you think its still right ?

I don't.

Mr. FoggPatches

The flying mouse wrote: »

I know what your saying there, But what about if its not fantastic and you just not in the humour, You don't want to have sex, You have a headache ? Do you think its still right ?

I don't.

I think if that happened, I'd see a doctor.

The flying mouse

anna080 wrote: »

Having studies statistics at length in college, I guarantee you that the questions in this survey were deliberately ambiguous in order to produce a shocking result and allow the newspaper to push a certain agenda.

What agenda would the state broadcaster have for publishing theses results ?

Ineedaname

Christy42 wrote: »

The first meaning seems pretty well implied. It is certainly what I would take from the question.

You and I might think that but it doesn't mean everyone will.

Some of the questions are far too vague and open to interpretation.

KERSPLAT!

Zaph wrote: »

On the one hand it's good that we're lower than the EU average, but on the other it still means that a fifth of the population essentially think that rape or sexual assault is OK under certain circumstances. Wtf is wrong with those people?

Without the questions for the poll that was conducted it's hard to have any meaningful discussion regarding it tbh. Polls and results can be twisted.

hatrickpatrick

As I said in the other thread, appalling if true, BUT, I want to know what questions were asked to arrive at this conclusion. Similar studies in the US have asked questions about having sex while drunk or not remembering a romp fully the next day because of drink, and essentially extrapolating that as automatically rape regardless of how the supposed perpetrator or victim felt about it. Destroys the credibility entirely in my view.

I'm not saying that that's happening here, just that it does have precedent and as a result I'm always skeptical unless I can see a full breakdown of the actual questions and answers involved.

SEPT 23 1989

The flying mouse wrote: »

I know what your saying there, But what about if its not fantastic and you just not in the humour, You don't want to have sex, You have a headache ? Do you think its still right ?

I don't.

Said no husband ever

jcsoulinger

The walking alone one is the most disturbing to me, how can people think thats acceptable?

I wonder what those peoples opinion would be if it was a man walking alone that was sexually assaulted by a bigger man?

_Kaiser_

Being discussed on NewsTalk now...

seamus

Crossposting...

The report itself at the conclusion states that the results of the survey are a reason to be cautiously optimistic because attitudes are improving.

So despite the fact things are getting better and Ireland being 7th best out of 28, some quarters have decided to paint this as a shocking and terrible figure.

I do also have an issue with that specific question in that it's too vague;

QB10 Some people believe that having sexual intercourse without consent may be justified in certain situations. Do you think this applies to the
following circumstances?
(SHOW SCREEN - READ OUT - MULTIPLE ANSWERS POSSIBLE)
Wearing revealing, provocative or sexy clothing
Being drunk or using drugs
Flirting beforehand
Not clearly saying no or physically fighting back
Being out walking alone at night,
Having several sexual partners
Voluntarily going home with someone, for example after
a party or date
If the assailant does not realise what they were doing
If the assailant regrets his actions
None of these
Refusal (SPONTANEOUS)
Don't know

So two examples there where it could easily be vague;
1. "Having several sexual partners". Someone could easily read that and think it means threesomes or swinging. And that "without consent" means "without specifically asking if they want to have sex".

2. "If the assailant does not realise what they were doing", Is incredibly vague. Does the assailant think they have consent? Or is the assailant too drunk to give consent themselves? Or is the assailant asleep? Because if it's the case that both people are blackout drunk, then I'm kind of on the side of "justified" in that scenario, since neither party are capable of consent.

The question realistically should begin with a statement clarifying what "consent" is. And also using the word "acceptable" instead of the word "justified". That makes it a much more definitive expression of meaning.

Full report is here;
http://ec.europa.eu/COMMFrontOffice/publicopinion/index.cfm/ResultDoc/download/DocumentKy/75837

One stat I found most interesting were the age profiles. People over 55 and under 25 were the most likely to find non-consensual sex acceptable in some circumstances. This would reflect old attitudes in the former, and immature/inexperienced attitudes in the latter.
For women in particular, the young and the old were a third more likely than the 25-55 age group to say that it was acceptable in certain circumstances.

Timberrrrrrrr

The flying mouse wrote: »

I know what your saying there, But what about if its not fantastic and you just not in the humour, You don't want to have sex, You have a headache ? Do you think its still right ?

I don't.

Men don't use the "not tonight love I have a headache" excuse

Assetbacked

In order to properly understand the sentence "sex without consent is justified in circumstances", we must first address what this is saying.

Firstly, "sex without consent"; does this mean that the person is silent as to consent and the act happens based on body language or does it mean the person has expressly signalled that they do not wish to have sex?

Secondly, the "is justified in certain circumstances"; what does this mean? Did these respondents mean in a roleplay situation where a fantasy is being acted out or where consent is not expressed in words but implied in body language (as with "sex without consent" above)?

Thirdly, the intended meaning of the newspaper is to use that statistic to say that certain people believe that rape is okay. There will be people who agree with this and that is disturbing but as to the statistic of people quoted, I find it hard to believe that these disturbed people amount to the figure quoted.

Christy42

Ineedaname wrote: »

You and I might think that but it doesn't mean everyone will.

Some of the questions are far too vague and open to interpretation.

Honestly if that were the case I would believe the respondents need English lessons. The intent is clear. The only reason to call them vague is to muddy the water. I.e. There is a post above talking about what about role play non consensual sex? That is just ridiculous to think that is what is being covered here. If you hear a question asking if it is wrong to kill people you don't go wondering if it is assisted suicide.

hatrickpatrick

ITT: Lads literally never say no to sex. It's impossible for a guy not to be in the mood.

I'm sorry lads, but if anyone, even a girlfriend of several decades, had tried to mount me during the All Blacks match last weekend I would have taken my telly and locked myself into a different room

Annasopra

anna080 wrote: »

Having studies statistics at length in college, I guarantee you that the questions in this survey were deliberately ambiguous in order to produce a shocking result and allow the newspaper to push a certain agenda.

What newspaper?

Ineedaname

Christy42 wrote: »

Honestly if that were the case I would believe the respondents need English lessons. The intent is clear. The only reason to call them vague is to muddy the water. I.e. There is a post above talking about what about role play non consensual sex? That is just ridiculous to think that is what is being covered here. If you hear a question asking if it is wrong to kill people you don't go wondering if it is assisted suicide.

Have you read any of the questions?

Timberrrrrrrr

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

ITT: Lads literally never say no to sex. It's impossible for a guy not to be in the mood.

I'm sorry lads, but if anyone, even a girlfriend of several decades, had tried to mount me during the All Blacks match last weekend I would have taken my telly and locked myself into a different room

Doggy style was created for such scenarios

Mr. FoggPatches

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Doggy style was created for such scenarios

Imagine having sex with a girl while watching 30 drug addled men pound each other.
Bit ghey if you ask me, but to each their own.

Christy42

Ineedaname wrote: »

Have you read any of the questions?

Yes. I read the poll. What was unclear. No consent is not talking about role play or non verbal consent being given as both those obviously involve consent being given. I can't see the issue.

NomadicGray

Sounds like an absolute **** survey, the one number you need to see is under "Refusal" and its a zero

Outlaw Pete

Gatling wrote: »

I actually fear for my daughter's growing up ,

Just tell them not to take a course in Gender / Women's Studies. They'll be grand.

Irish Guitarist

I sincerely doubt that many people think it's justified to rape a woman who's walking home alone. I think it's more likely they were asked something like "who is most at risk of being raped, a woman in a pair of jeans or a woman in a short skirt". Nowadays having the opinion that it might not be a great idea to for a woman to walk around on her own late at night in revealing clothes is seen as 'victim blaming'.