Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 04:52PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nonsense. Unionism is nationalism.

Could you elaborate?

Kotek Besar · 22-11-2016 04:59PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

It really should have. It's an important part of British history.

there are plenty of references to parts of the empire, but it isn't discussed as "We had an Empire".

it is a long time ago since I left school, so it may have changed, but most of what i recall was basically Roman Britain, Angles, Saxons and Britons, Normans, the various Kings and Queens and their wrangles, English Civil war, the slave trade and its abolition, early 20th century tinder box of europe and then WWI, Russian revolutions, League of Nations and the rise of Hitler.

That's pretty much what I learned of history in school, except for the Russian history. Don't recall any of that. Maybe we are different ages? I am 34.

As for history taught in Ireland, not having gone to school here I don't have first hand experience. I have friends who have children in primary school here though. When I visited them at home once, his son (8 years old) was telling me that in school that day they had been learning about history and, whenever "England" was or "the English" were mentioned, the teacher encouraged the class to shout "boo!". I was astonished to hear of this.

I think it's probably fair to say that history classes are skewed on both side of the pond. Pretty shambolic really, it's 2016.

FrancieBrady · 22-11-2016 05:06PM

Kotek Besar wrote: »

That's pretty much what I learned of history in school, except for the Russian history. Don't recall any of that. Maybe we are different ages? I am 34.

As for history taught in Ireland, not having gone to school here I don't have first hand experience. I have friends who have children in primary school here though. When I visited them at home once, his son (8 years old) was telling me that in school that day they had been learning about history and, whenever "England" was or "the English" were mentioned, the teacher encouraged the class to shout "boo!". I was astonished to hear of this.

I think it's probably fair to say that history classes are skewed on both side of the pond. Pretty shambolic really, it's 2016.

TBH I find that very hard to believe.
I don't think a teacher would risk that in this day and age.
As our 1916 commemorations showed clearly, there is a sensitivity to show inclusiveness for quite some time.
A teacher behaving as you say would run the gauntlet of censure very quickly.

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 05:07PM

Kotek Besar wrote: »

That's pretty much what I learned of history in school, except for the Russian history. Don't recall any of that. Maybe we are different ages? I am 34.

As for history taught in Ireland, not having gone to school here I don't have first hand experience. I have friends who have children in primary school here though. When I visited them at home once, his son (8 years old) was telling me that in school that day they had been learning about history and, whenever "England" was or "the English" were mentioned, the teacher encouraged the class to shout "boo!". I was astonished to hear of this.

I think it's probably fair to say that history classes are skewed on both side of the pond. Pretty shambolic really, it's 2016.

That's disgraceful. History should be impartial and fostering a hatred of a race based on past deeds doesn't belong in 2016.

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 05:08PM

Kotek Besar wrote: »

That's pretty much what I learned of history in school, except for the Russian history. Don't recall any of that. Maybe we are different ages? I am 34.

As for history taught in Ireland, not having gone to school here I don't have first hand experience. I have friends who have children in primary school here though. When I visited them at home once, his son (8 years old) was telling me that in school that day they had been learning about history and, whenever "England" was or "the English" were mentioned, the teacher encouraged the class to shout "boo!". I was astonished to hear of this.

I think it's probably fair to say that history classes are skewed on both side of the pond. Pretty shambolic really, it's 2016.

I'm more than a decade older, so when i was at school, NATO and the Warsaw Pact were pointing shed loads of nukes at each other, so the reasons why were very important I guess.

History is written by the victors, in Ireland, the irish were the victors, so they get to teach their own version.

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 05:09PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm more than a decade older, so when i was at school, NATO and the Warsaw Pact were pointing shed loads of nukes at each other, so the reasons why were very important I guess.

History is written by the victors, in Ireland, the irish were the victors, so they get to teach their own version.

Out of curiosity what elements of Irish history do you disagree with?

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 05:09PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's disgraceful. History should be impartial and fostering a hatred of a race based on past deeds doesn't belong in 2016.

You should have a chat with Fauranach

The flying mouse · 22-11-2016 05:13PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm more than a decade older,.

For some strange reason I taught you were in your late fiftys

sorry.

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 05:14PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You should have a chat with Fauranach

You should engage with the points instead of meaningless retorts.

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 05:18PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Out of curiosity what elements of Irish history do you disagree with?

There is loads of bias, or selective omissions. the "Irish" being prevented from getting an education, proselytising during the famine.

British government forced exports during the famine, Ireland being partitioned due to the British threat of immediate and terrible war....

Kotek Besar · 22-11-2016 05:19PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Kotek Besar wrote: »

That's pretty much what I learned of history in school, except for the Russian history. Don't recall any of that. Maybe we are different ages? I am 34.

As for history taught in Ireland, not having gone to school here I don't have first hand experience. I have friends who have children in primary school here though. When I visited them at home once, his son (8 years old) was telling me that in school that day they had been learning about history and, whenever "England" was or "the English" were mentioned, the teacher encouraged the class to shout "boo!". I was astonished to hear of this.

I think it's probably fair to say that history classes are skewed on both side of the pond. Pretty shambolic really, it's 2016.

TBH I find that very hard to believe.
I don't think a teacher would risk that in this day and age.
As our 1916 commemorations showed clearly, there is a sensitivity to show inclusiveness for quite some time.
A teacher behaving as you say would run the gauntlet of censure very quickly.

I agree it's quite astonishing. The little boy in question is quite the quiet type, however, not the type to make things up.

FrancieBrady · 22-11-2016 05:21PM

Kotek Besar wrote: »

I agree it's quite astonishing. The little boy in question is quite the quiet type, however, not the type to make things up.

That teacher would be a very rare exception to the rule. That would not be tolerated by a lot of parents never mind the education bodies.

May have been done in a sporting context.

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 05:25PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

May have been done in a sporting context.

oh, well that's ok then :rolleyes:

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 05:27PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

There is loads of bias, or selective omissions. the "Irish" being prevented from getting an education, proselytising during the famine.

British government forced exports during the famine, Ireland being partitioned due to the British threat of immediate and terrible war....

The partition of Ireland was multi-factorial but at no point justified. I'll use a British source in the late great Christopher Hitchens in saying that the partition of Ireland was both the cause and outcome of the sectarian problems in Northern Ireland. It lead to gerrymandering, discrimination against Catholics and the troubles.

Whatever about exports during the famine we can safely say that the government response was inadequate and sometimes racist. Trevelyan's propaganda in England ensured that many people in England believed the Irish famine was the fault of the Irish.

Depending on the teacher you get you'll get different forms of history.

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 05:28PM

Kotek Besar wrote: »

I agree it's quite astonishing. The little boy in question is quite the quiet type, however, not the type to make things up.

That teacher should be reported. We have relatively good Anglo-Irish relations now and we don't need people spreading hate.

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 05:29PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

That teacher should be reported. We have relatively good Anglo-Irish relations now and we don't need people spreading hate.

I refer the gentleman to my earlier statement

steddyeddy · 22-11-2016 05:30PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I refer the gentleman to my earlier statement

Which one?

FrancieBrady · 22-11-2016 05:35PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

oh, well that's ok then :rolleyes:

Yeh, in the same way a Cavan teacher might 'boo' when talking about Dublin.

Lighten up Fred.

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 05:51PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

The partition of Ireland was multi-factorial but at no point justified. I'll use a British source in the late great Christopher Hitchens in saying that the partition of Ireland was both the cause and outcome of the sectarian problems in Northern Ireland. It lead to gerrymandering, discrimination against Catholics and the troubles.

It was, but you will rarely hear anyone admit to it being anything other than the fault of the British. Collins knew the North wasn't achievable at the time and De Velera didn't want it.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Whatever about exports during the famine we can safely say that the government response was inadequate and sometimes racist. Trevelyan's propaganda in England ensured that many people in England believed the Irish famine was the fault of the Irish.

Depending on the teacher you get you'll get different forms of history.

Trevelyan's infamous quote is an interesting one. When he refers to the attitude of the people, who was he referring to, the absent landlord, the starving peasant farmer, or the wealthy farmers and merchants profiteering?

In Ireland, it is only ever considered that he is blaming the starving, but he could have just have conceivably be blaming the farmers who were recruituing their own militia to guard their stocks and selling them to the poor houses for at greatly increased prices.

Yes, the government should have stopped it and their response was attrocious, but no blame at all is apportioned to a lot of guilty people (mainly because their descendants are still living here). Then, of course, you have the myths about the Ottoman emperor's ships getting turned away from various ports by the royal navu and having to dock in Drogheda.....

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 05:53PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yeh, in the same way a Cavan teacher might 'boo' when talking about Dublin.

Lighten up Fred.

ah sure, it's just a bit of xenophobia, that's harmless enough.

FrancieBrady · 22-11-2016 05:59PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

ah sure, it's just a bit of xenophobia, that's harmless enough.

Sporting rivalry Fred. Ever hear of it? Kinda keeps sport going and the point of a lot of it from a fan perspective.

Xenophobia is the irrational hate of foreigners. Quite a different thing.

Fratton Fred · 22-11-2016 06:04PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sporting rivalry Fred. Ever hear of it? Kinda keeps sport going and the point of a lot of it from a fan perspective.

Xenophobia is the irrational hate of foreigners. Quite a different thing.

so a teacher, teaching a history class, gets kids to boo every time England is mentioned and it is just a bit of football banter?

ok.

FrancieBrady · 22-11-2016 06:05PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

so a teacher, teaching a history class, gets kids to boo every time England is mentioned and it is just a bit of football banter?

ok.

No, I never said anything like that Fred. Calm down.

Junkyard Tom · 22-11-2016 06:17PM

I don't believe any teacher would be stupid enough to do that these days.

A Little Pony · 22-11-2016 06:18PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

The US had theory plans on invading Britain too, utterly unrealistic and wasn't ever going to happen.

Very recent history should tell you anything can happen given a tailwind.
The old orders have crumbled elsewhere and they will here too. Especially as that 'old order' is out on it's feet and on life support (that it ain't paying for)

Bit of a difference between Brexit and Trump winning an election and taking Northern Ireland out of the Union and causing the worst civil war these islands would have ever seen, including the English civil war.

Junkyard Tom · 22-11-2016 06:24PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

causing the worst civil war these islands would have ever seen.

Nah. Wouldn't happen because there'd be no ends. Not a hope in hell you'd force the other half into some other arrangement. Forget it.

FrancieBrady · 22-11-2016 06:25PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Bit of a difference between Brexit and Trump winning an election and taking Northern Ireland out of the Union and causing the worst civil war these islands would have ever seen, including the English civil war.

Which divisions will fight this 'civil war', the one that valiantly cried Never Never Never about the GFA but sat down at the table and came up with the Chuckle Bros? The Victorious Drumcree division who were gonna fight to the bitter end or at least until they got fed up? or the Fleg Division who were not gonna take anymore...but did. ?

As I say, times have changed. Time to get a new scary story.

A Little Pony · 22-11-2016 06:31PM

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

causing the worst civil war these islands would have ever seen.

Nah. Wouldn't happen because there'd be no ends. Not a hope in hell you'd force the other half into some other arrangement. Forget it.

Around that time you had people actually killing people with the sort of tactics you would see from ISIS today, mass gun shootings, bombings. I could not think of a worse political decision, completely unrealistic. Thatcher might have been some things but stupid wasn't one.

A Little Pony · 22-11-2016 06:33PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Bit of a difference between Brexit and Trump winning an election and taking Northern Ireland out of the Union and causing the worst civil war these islands would have ever seen, including the English civil war.

Which divisions will fight this 'civil war', the one that valiantly cried Never Never Never about the GFA but sat down at the table and came up with the Chuckle Bros? The Victorious Drumcree division who were gonna fight to the bitter end or at least until they got fed up? or the Fleg Division who were not gonna take anymore...but did. ?

As I say, times have changed. Time to get a new scary story.

What are you on about?

Junkyard Tom · 22-11-2016 06:36PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Around that time you had people actually killing people with the sort of tactics you would see from ISIS today, mass gun shootings, bombings.

In your fantasies maybe. Even if we pretend that would happen (it wouldn't) what would be the outcome sought? Humour me.

Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Comments