Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Grayson · 12-11-2016 03:25PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Ah yeah, the Bonobo theory. It's a load of tripe, with a fair chunk of 1960'70's free love(even gender politics) stuff on top. The other side to that coin was that the warring "killer ape" chimps were a better analogue to how we came so far(the latter reflected in the opening scenes of Kubricks 2001 A Space Odyssey). It turns out we humans are unlike either subspecies of chimp. We're far more diverse in our habits for a start. This is one big reason why both of the above camps could claim to have traction. You can find some cultures more like Bonobos and others more like common Chimps and yet others like neither.

It's not so much cultural aspects as more basic anthropological aspects. Bonobo's are one of our closest relatives. We are more advanced so we are very different but it doesn't mean that there aren't some core similarities.

And even without the genetic similarities the face is that bonobo's and chimps both form basic societies. We can see what works and doesn't work in them and hopefully learn something about our society too.

Until we happen to find alien civilisations, studying these societies is the best way to compare and contrast ours.

Wibbs · 12-11-2016 04:19PM

Grayson wrote: »

It's not so much cultural aspects as more basic anthropological aspects. Bonobo's are one of our closest relatives. We are more advanced so we are very different but it doesn't mean that there aren't some core similarities.

And even without the genetic similarities the face is that bonobo's and chimps both form basic societies. We can see what works and doesn't work in them and hopefully learn something about our society too.

Not particularly G. There has long been a tendency in anthropology(and other disciplines) to look for the "missing link", that early stage mirror of us as a species and the other great apes seem the most obvious start. That they looks so like us another natural draw. However they really don't match up nearly as much as one would expect. We can certainly learn about their societies, but as for how we could translate that to ours is a very different matter.

For a start other animals form basic societies too. Whales, some species of birds etc. Much closer to home would be wild dogs, which mirror more than chimp or bonobo how tribal humans form groups. That is breeding pairs(mammy and daddy) and offspring(kids) operating as an apex predator family group, sometimes leading to even larger groups(the latter seems to have been one of our "killer apps"). It's one theory why we were able to domesticate the dog. Our "societies" were close enough in general terms so that the fit went both ways.

Albert_Camus · 12-11-2016 05:14PM

Wibbs wrote: »

It's one theory why we were able to domesticate the dog. Our "societies" were close enough in general terms so that the fit went both ways.

I'd love to read more on this if you have a link. Thank in advance!

zeroliner · 12-11-2016 08:15PM

This thread alone is giving O'Neill life.

Wibbs · 12-11-2016 08:25PM

Albert_Camus wrote: »

I'd love to read more on this if you have a link. Thank in advance!

I'm sure I have links somewhere about the place and I'll have a look. The similarities are quite interesting and quite numerous. Certainly when compared to our nearest relatives the great apes. Wolves show more similarities. Both are apex predators that routinely take down larger animals than themselves, who operate parent led territorial "packs" that range over large areas nurturing offspring that in turn go off to raise their own family packs. Quite the number of older cultures have seen wolves as "teachers of humanity".

Sweetemotion · 12-11-2016 09:39PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm sure I have links somewhere about the place and I'll have a look. The similarities are quite interesting and quite numerous. Certainly when compared to our nearest relatives the great apes. Wolves show more similarities. Both are apex predators that routinely take down larger animals than themselves, who operate parent led territorial "packs" that range over large areas nurturing offspring that in turn go off to raise their own family packs. Quite the number of older cultures have seen wolves as "teachers of humanity".

That is really interesting, wouldn't mind reading the links myself.

Romulus and Remus...

cloudatlas · 12-11-2016 09:42PM

Rape, sexual assault... a man can have accusers in the double numbers and still be elected President. wtf!?

Ulysses Gaze · 12-11-2016 09:47PM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Rape, sexual assault... a man can have accusers in the double numbers and still be elected President. wtf!?

Well Bill Clinton managed to get elected twice with those accusations hanging over his head....

Widdershins · 12-11-2016 09:53PM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Rape, sexual assault... a man can have accusers in the double numbers and still be elected President. wtf!?

The accusations were mostly dropped so far, a conspiracy to frame him for rape was exposed, and people might feel dubious about any such allegations in light of these facts.. and the voting public are voting for their president, not acting as judge and jury.
Meanwhile, his opponent Hillary is accused of trying to force a woman to keep quiet about being raped at 12. She also has weird views on contraception and encourages abstinence instead. Not to mention her views on gay marriage and her ties to Saudi Arabia with its vile treatment of women.
I can see why they voted for Trump with or without accusations.

cloudatlas · 12-11-2016 11:04PM

Thank god Bill Cosby wasn't running.

Sweetemotion · 12-11-2016 11:05PM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Thank god Bill Cosby wasn't running.

Why?

Wibbs · 12-11-2016 11:26PM

zeroliner wrote:

This thread alone is giving O'Neill life.

Me being a child had this come to mind ZedL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuoKNZjr8_U

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Romulus and Remus...

There have been a fair few reports of children who have been raised by/habituated to wolves and dogs. Not so much raised by great ape "Tarzans" though.

Off piste aside, the famous Romulus and Remus "Roman" statue is actually an early medieval example/copy.

I know I shouldn't be saying this, but I bloody love when threads/our convos go a bit sideways and "off topic"

Widdershins · 12-11-2016 11:30PM

So when exactly does a fetus' heart begin to beat?

mzungu · 12-11-2016 11:34PM

Widdershins wrote: »

So when exactly does a fetus' heart begin to beat?

It forms around week 5 and starts pumping blood at week 6.

Widdershins · 12-11-2016 11:35PM

mzungu wrote: »

It forms around week 5 and starts pumping blood at week 6.

That's what I thought. Thank you.

Sweetemotion · 12-11-2016 11:41PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Me being a child had this come to mind ZedL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuoKNZjr8_U

There have been a fair few reports of children who have been raised by/habituated to wolves and dogs. Not so much raised by great ape "Tarzans" though.

Off piste aside, the famous Romulus and Remus "Roman" statue is actually an early medieval example/copy.

I know I shouldn't be saying this, but I bloody love when threads/our convos go a bit sideways and "off topic"

Could it be a mutual respect from each other.

Formed over the years of each trying to survive?

me_right_one · 12-11-2016 11:47PM

Widdershins wrote: »

So when exactly does a fetus' heart begin to beat?

mzungu wrote: »

It forms around week 5 and starts pumping blood at week 6.

Earliest ever recorded was pumping at 16 days after conception. Will find the link.

professore · 12-11-2016 11:57PM

cloudatlas wrote: »

Rape, sexual assault... a man can have accusers in the double numbers and still be elected President. wtf!?

Hillary was accused of lots of stuff, should we just believe that too? Accusation does not equal guilt. There is some stuff he said, but there are lots of us of both genders who have said dodgy stuff. One of my female friends said recently about some young actor she fancied that she would be done for paedophilia for him.

I'm not a Trump supporter, as he is clearly a racist, and sexist, but we should stick to facts, not accusations as we are no better than them otherwise.

mzungu · 13-11-2016 12:10AM

me_right_one wrote: »

Earliest ever recorded was pumping at 16 days after conception. Will find the link.

The Mayo Clinic has it at 5-6 weeks.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/pregnancy-week-by-week/in-depth/prenatal-care/art-20045302

me_right_one · 13-11-2016 12:12AM

mzungu wrote: »

The Mayo Clinic has it at 5-6 weeks.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/pregnancy-week-by-week/in-depth/prenatal-care/art-20045302

Between 16 and 21 days according to these sites. Either way, 6 weeks is 42 days. We're still talking in days here.

http://prolifecampaign.ie/main/portfolio/detail/when-does-life-begin/

https://prolifeacrossamerica.org/baby-developmental-facts/

http://prolifeaction.org/faq/unborn.php

mzungu · 13-11-2016 12:22AM

me_right_one wrote: »

Between 16 and 21 days according to these sites. Either way, 6 weeks is 42 days. We're still talking in days here.

http://prolifecampaign.ie/main/portfolio/detail/when-does-life-begin/

https://prolifeacrossamerica.org/baby-developmental-facts/

http://prolifeaction.org/faq/unborn.php

They are all pro-life websites. I would be highly skeptical of their claims.

me_right_one · 13-11-2016 12:25AM

mzungu wrote: »

They are all pro-life websites. I would be highly skeptical of their claims.

Still. Lets say 42 days then. Louise O'Neill would still think it was her "human right" to end that childs life up to full term, ie 280 days

osmiumartist · 13-11-2016 12:32AM

me_right_one wrote: »

Still. Lets say 42 days then. Louise O'Neill would still think it was her "human right" to end that childs life up to full term, ie 280 days

I'm pro-choice up to the UK limit, but it always gets me as crazy that extreme feminists are always after this full-term elective abortion option while at the same time assuring us it'll never ever ever be used.
Why are they so keen on it then?

Widdershins · 13-11-2016 12:35AM

osmiumartist wrote: »

I'm pro-choice up to the UK limit, but it always gets me as crazy that extreme feminists are always after this full-term elective abortion option while at the same time assuring us it'll never ever ever be used.
Why are they so keen on it then?

That's what worries me. I've been pro choice all along but now, Louise has me worried.

osmiumartist · 13-11-2016 01:04AM

Widdershins wrote: »

That's what worries me. I've been pro choice all along but now, Louise has me worried.

In fairness I wouldn't go changing my mind over her lunacy any more than I would SPUC's etc.

Widdershins · 13-11-2016 01:11AM

osmiumartist wrote: »

In fairness I wouldn't go changing my mind over her lunacy any more than I would SPUC's etc.

How big is her army of mini me's though? How many out there look up to her and her weird, dark mind? She's a sort of role model, albeit a really bad one.

me_right_one · 13-11-2016 01:16AM

Widdershins wrote: »

How big is her army of mini me's though? How many out there look up to her and her weird, dark mind? She's a sort of role model, albeit a really bad one.

Exactly. Do SPUC have their own columnist in a daily national newspaper who launches books and gets TV interviews? As far as I can see, its mostly Louise types who want to repeal the 8th. Other moderate pro-choice people seem happy enough with the 2013 "medical reasons only" legislation.

Widdershins · 13-11-2016 01:22AM

me_right_one wrote: »

Exactly. Do SPUC have their own columnist in a daily national newspaper who launches books and gets TV interviews? As far as I can see, its mostly Louise types who want to repeal the 8th. Other moderate pro-choice people seem happy enough with the 2013 "medical reasons only" legislation.

Some non Louise types..I would prefer if it was going to happen, it happens in hygienic condition in Ireland instead of dangerous d.i.y attempts or cloak and dagger trips abroad and it will always be happening whether anyone likes it or not.

I don't want late term abortions or completely ''on demand'' and I can see Louise and co. pushing for them sooner or later..if nothing else it would keep her in the spotlight and give her something to wail about.

Hope she's proud of herself, undermining the very 'causes' she thinks shes championing. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels like backing away from anything she's involved in.

Trimm Trabb · 13-11-2016 01:31AM

As a 29 year old male I have seen men of my generation in Ireland act appallingingly towards women and agree that many young men in Ireland need to be made consider their attitudes toward women and sex.

However I think rape culture is a very unhelpful term. I would compare it to describing Muslim culture as 'jihad culture'.

I also feel Louise O'Neill personally comes across as narcissistic and lacking humility. This coupled with the language used to articulate the problem puts the majority of people off engaging in real and honest discourse on the issue.

_Jamie_ · 13-11-2016 03:51AM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Aside from the fact that a developing human being is not a woman's body.

Who thinks that it is?

The 'woman's body' bit means it's a woman's body and she can choose whether or not that body can be used to support a growing fetus.

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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