2016 U.S. Presidential Race Megathread Mark 2.

BoatMad · 09-11-2016 12:44PM

Jawgap wrote: »

From an article in the New Yorker......

That article is just hysterical

Rightwing · 09-11-2016 12:45PM

Bye Hilary.

Not sure you are owed a debt of gratitude however, the first of many mistakes I'm expecting from the new clown.

Blatter · 09-11-2016 12:45PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

What politician is not a liar. This is the really big issue. Look internally in Ireland what politician is not lying to get elected. What has happend is that ordinary Joe Sixpack is fed up with the lies from politicians. They are fed up with the pandering to the liberal section of society. Politician's have left the door open for this and Trump has walked through it.

Will he be a disaster it is hard to know. The lower middle class and ordinary workers has been squeezed for the last 20 years. It is the same in Ireland look at the last referendum nearly 40% of the people voted against it. They were branded bigots and racists. No politician stood up for them these people are waiting for a Trump. When you look at Irish politics every new party try to enter the squeezed middle it is only a matter of time before we have a ultra conservative party.

Yes all politicians have to essentially lie to get elected because if you speak with 100% honesty and integrity, much of what you say will be misinterpreted by the opposition (deliberately), media(deliberately and lack of understanding context) and a huge chunk of the electorate (lack of understanding of context). And you will not get elected. This means as a politician you have to account for this and rephrase your messages and compromising on certain policies in order to have a chance of getting elected.

To my mind, there is a BIG difference between the above, and what Donald Trump has done. Trump has out-rightly lied and blatantly manipulated much of the electorate.

To good politicians, lying is a necessary evil. To Trump, it WAS his strategy.

Christy42 · 09-11-2016 12:47PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

What politician is not a liar. This is the really big issue. Look internally in Ireland what politician is not lying to get elected. What has happend is that ordinary Joe Sixpack is fed up with the lies from politicians. They are fed up with the pandering to the liberal section of society. Politician's have left the door open for this and Trump has walked through it.

Will he be a disaster it is hard to know. The lower middle class and ordinary workers has been squeezed for the last 20 years. It is the same in Ireland look at the last referendum nearly 40% of the people voted against it. They were branded bigots and racists.

So they will take lies from a non politician instead?

Also if it votes for a racist and cheers for a racist...

People earlier called this the death of the pc police but all the pc police did was change who they protect. Suddenly you call some people deplorable and the pc police are right at your door to protect their special right wing snowflakes:p.

Thomas_... · 09-11-2016 12:48PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Blatter wrote: »

He lied of course, but unfortunately that isn't important anymore,

What politician is not a liar. This is the really big issue. Look internally in Ireland what politician is not lying to get elected. What has happend is that ordinary Joe Sixpack is fed up with the lies from politicians. They are fed up with the pandering to the liberal section of society. Politician's have left the door open for this and Trump has walked through it.

Will he be a disaster it is hard to know. The lower middle class and ordinary workers has been squeezed for the last 20 years. It is the same in Ireland look at the last referendum nearly 40% of the people voted against it. They were branded bigots and racists. No politician stood up for them these people are waiting for a Trump. When you look at Irish politics every new party try to enter the squeezed middle it is only a matter of time before we have a ultra conservative party.

I think that to put it in general terms, the line to draw between a ultra conservative and a far-right party is a very tiny one and this also because you used the term "ultra" which also points out to the extreme of the political varieties.

Thomas_... · 09-11-2016 12:53PM

BoatMad wrote: »

Jawgap wrote: »

From an article in the New Yorker......

That article is just hysterical

It is not cos its content goes straight to the point and Orwell was seldom wrong in what he wrote, just people didn't understand it that straight what he wrote even when it is that obvious and repeats itself in our time. One can project those citations to the social media of our time and it suits perfectly, given the mass hysteria and sh1tstorms people are unleashing there for things one would rather deem to be not even worthy a fiddlers fart.

In principal, nothing has changed, just the devices and abilities people use in the modern world and this modern Technology is faster than anything before. Otherwise we wouldn't sit in front of our computers and writing on boards like this which everone who has access to the internet can read.

Chips Lovell · 09-11-2016 12:54PM

Maybe it isn't so bad?

I know George Santayana said that "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it", but you never know, maybe this time a retreat to populist, xenophobic, isolationism will solve a country's problems.

Thomas_... · 09-11-2016 12:55PM

Christy42 wrote: »

Bass Reeves wrote: »

What politician is not a liar. This is the really big issue. Look internally in Ireland what politician is not lying to get elected. What has happend is that ordinary Joe Sixpack is fed up with the lies from politicians. They are fed up with the pandering to the liberal section of society. Politician's have left the door open for this and Trump has walked through it.

Will he be a disaster it is hard to know. The lower middle class and ordinary workers has been squeezed for the last 20 years. It is the same in Ireland look at the last referendum nearly 40% of the people voted against it. They were branded bigots and racists.

So they will take lies from a non politician instead?

Also if it votes for a racist and cheers for a racist...

People earlier called this the death of the pc police but all the pc police did was change who they protect. Suddenly you call some people deplorable and the pc police are right at your door to protect their special right wing snowflakes:p.

That describes exactly the Orwellianism stated in the quote in Jawgap's post.

Billy86 · 09-11-2016 12:56PM

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Billy86 wrote: »

This election, and the fall out from it when the trump fans become dissatisfied with their own elected president, could well be the rise of third additional parties. Both the Democrats and republicans are highly fractured right now and that is likely only going to get worse for each with the fallout of the loss for the dems and the fact the Republican electorate are so split on so many things and now for the first time in years actually have to make decisions and govern. Social media etc and its ability to reach a wide audience without needing to spend too much money or have connections could also play a very, very big role in this.

The next four years is going to be very interesting in that respect.

The charity I pick is the Irish Cancer Society: https://www.cancer.ie/

Cheers.

Will have in first thing Friday and will post on here. Hats off to you by the way for the only Trump fan on here willing to back up your convictions!

Good charity call also by the way.

09-11-2016 12:59PM

BoatMad wrote: »

That article is just hysterical

I didn't find that article particularly hysterical, although a lot of people are working themselves up a little too much about it.

A family member who works in UCD told me that there were students crying and comforting one another. Americans I assume. That's a case of people losing the run of themselves.

I think everyone who didn't support Trump is worried about what his victory means. But it doesn't mean nuclear apocalypse or the end of civilisation.

It might mean a recession in the financial markets and in public morale, it might be regressive for American society and for international relations, and that's all bad, very bad. But in reality there are far worse, more brutal, more chaotic leaderships out there that don't have the same checks and balances as provided for under the US Constitution.

BoatMad · 09-11-2016 12:59PM

Originally Posted by Billy86 View Post
This election, and the fall out from it when the trump fans become dissatisfied with their own elected president, could well be the rise of third additional parties. Both the Democrats and republicans are highly fractured right now and that is likely only going to get worse for each with the fallout of the loss for the dems and the fact the Republican electorate are so split on so many things and now for the first time in years actually have to make decisions and govern. Social media etc and its ability to reach a wide audience without needing to spend too much money or have connections could also play a very, very big role in this.

The next four years is going to be very interesting in that respect.

indeed, Trump will be the first post-Brexit election where we will see if "not" solving problems for the voter base actually counts or not. The effects of Brexit will take much longer too play out

Thomas_... · 09-11-2016 01:01PM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

Maybe it isn't so bad?

I know George Santayana said that "those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it", but you never know, maybe this time a retreat to populist, xenophobic, isolationism will solve a country's problems.

Remember the Brits and their Empire, once it was about to crumble in the wake of the emerging superpowers USA and USSR towards the end of WWII, the Brits lost their place as a world ruling power and there is no way to return. Once gone means gone for ever and the vacuum will be taken over by others who still have some appetite to take it. Not far to go to see those who have it, Putin and the Chinese.

The isolationism of the USA under Trump will be the equivalent to the downfall of the British Empire for the Americans are than on a footing for withdrawing from world (ruling) power status and such a thing will certainly affect the leadership of NATO as well. This is the very reason for why Putin likes Trump, cos he counts on some of the speeches of Trump in which he made some "hints".

BoatMad · 09-11-2016 01:07PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I didn't find that article particularly hysterical, although a lot of people are working themselves up a little too much about it.

A family member who works in UCD told me that there were students crying and comforting one another. Americans I assume. That's a case of people losing the run of themselves.

I think everyone who didn't support Trump is worried about what his victory means. But it doesn't mean nuclear apocalypse or the end of civilisation.

It might mean a recession in the financial markets and in public morale, it might be regressive for American society and for international relations, and that's all bad, very bad. But in reality there are far worse, more brutal, more chaotic leaderships out there that don't have the same checks and balances as provided for under the US Constitution.

But in reality there are far worse, more brutal, more chaotic leaderships out there that don't have the same checks and balances as provided for under the US Constitution.

That maybe the case , but none have anything like the power of the US to influence world affairs

I think everyone who didn't support Trump is worried about what his victory means. But it doesn't mean nuclear apocalypse or the end of civilisation.

I didn't support Trump, Im a fan of other republican candidates , But I dont think Trump is a demagogue or a fascist as some have claimed. I have my concerns thats he's more a FDR style democrat then a real republican

I think Trump sends an enormous shake up to both parties, The democrats believed they had a completely superior candidate to anything the GOP could field, equally the GOP ended up with a presidential candidate it in effect didnt want and didn't support.Both parties will have to do a lot of navel gazing

Note I am not an american , so my views are theoretical , but Im a long time fiscal conservative and reader of many ring wing political comment and I think whats happened in the USA is like Brexit , a dying kick from a group that is in effect fading from view.

equally one cannot discount the effect of a paralysed Federal government under a weak president that promised much and delivered little

jobbridge4life · 09-11-2016 01:10PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I didn't find that article particularly hysterical, although a lot of people are working themselves up a little too much about it.

A family member who works in UCD told me that there were students crying and comforting one another. Americans I assume. That's a case of people losing the run of themselves.

I think everyone who didn't support Trump is worried about what his victory means. But it doesn't mean nuclear apocalypse or the end of civilisation.

It might mean a recession in the financial markets and in public morale, it might be regressive for American society and for international relations, and that's all bad, very bad. But in reality there are far worse, more brutal, more chaotic leaderships out there that don't have the same checks and balances as provided for under the US Constitution.

What checks and balances? Republicans hold a majority in all branches of the government, legislative (both houses), executive and judicial.

walshb · 09-11-2016 01:11PM

Fair play to Trump. It was either him or a 70 year old granny leading the free world...

Thomas_... · 09-11-2016 01:12PM

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

BoatMad wrote: »

That article is just hysterical

I didn't find that article particularly hysterical, although a lot of people are working themselves up a little too much about it.

A family member who works in UCD told me that there were students crying and comforting one another. Americans I assume. That's a case of people losing the run of themselves.

I think everyone who didn't support Trump is worried about what his victory means. But it doesn't mean nuclear apocalypse or the end of civilisation.

It might mean a recession in the financial markets and in public morale, it might be regressive for American society and for international relations, and that's all bad, very bad. But in reality there are far worse, more brutal, more chaotic leaderships out there that don't have the same checks and balances as provided for under the US Constitution.

Well, with the majorities of his Party in both houses he certainly has "cart blanche" to do whatever he likes as long as his Party goes with him. When it comes to restrictions and cut backs in welfare and health insurance matters, I have no doubt that he will have an easy walk to get all that through he is aiming at.

Make no mistake, in his own view and attitude, America is for the rich as he himself is a rich one and those below the well off are going to suffer. That is for sure and with things getting worse for them, Trump will never "re-united" the American Society and rather make things worse, maybe much worse than what he have seen up to now, with more Cop killing, riots and social unrests taking place in the USA. The American Arms Lobby is very happy about Trump being elected President because he has no intention to put gun selling and using under more control. He has rather the potential to plunge the USA into a civil war where it will be the poor against the rich. Trump is no social man, he's a profits man and in this he always thought about profits for himself in the first place and so he will be forced to do for those who backed him, elected him lobbied for him. There's always a price to pay and favours to be returned and he knows that.

Wanderer78 · 09-11-2016 01:13PM

walshb wrote:

Fair play to Trump. It was either him or a 70 year old granny leading the free world...

Nothing free about this world

Billy86 · 09-11-2016 01:14PM

BoatMad wrote: »

indeed, Trump will be the first post-Brexit election where we will see if "not" solving problems for the voter base actually counts or not. The effects of Brexit will take much longer too play out

Indeed, makes you wonder if the best thing (long term) that could happen would be for it to be a completely disastrous presidency that fractures the GOP at every avenue - after all, they have the Senate, the House, the Oval Office AND the Supreme Court so there are no excuses on either Trump's end or the party establishment's whatsoever.

Likewise, would it be for the best (long term) for the Democrats to have a complete meltdown over this, re. the Sanders base, the establishment and possibly new elements? Had they not engineered a Clinton primary win so pathetically, we would likely be looking at President Bernie Sanders right now - the fallout over that is going to be a whole, whole lot more than it would have had Clinton won.

Because one thing I reckon most can agree on is that the two party system is a disaster. So long as things are going well it is never going to break down, so perhaps this could be a very opportune case of timing for all that are not the GOP/Dem establishments?

FA Hayek · 09-11-2016 01:19PM

Jawgap wrote: »

From an article in the New Yorker......

The New Yorker does not get it, so they will repeat the same mistakes down the track.

The fact that Clinton could not even bring herself to give a public concession speech last night speaks volumes about the Democratic candidate. She sends her campaign manager out instead to do her bidding.

She has gone into hiding. If Trump did this he would be castigated by the liberal smug media, by the usual crowd on Saturday night live and hollywood celebrities.

I saw someone post yesterday on FB before the counting started that Hillary got a few hundred newspaper endorsements and Tump got two. This was thought of as a good thing as she was a Hillary supporter, you the usual thumbs up, like, smily faces etc.. I immediately thought to myself that this would be gold to your average independent voter as they do not trust the media much as they do not trust the establishment. THIS is the reason why Trump won. If the New York Times write an op-ed against a politician and if some celebrity over the hill hollywood star starts doing impressions on a candidate on Saturday night live, it feeds into the mood and perception that the elites and establishment to not give two ****s about your quality of life.

Quick fact, do you know that white male life expectancy is actually shrinking in the US? Wont hear John Oliver make a skit of that on his show. Too busy calling you an idiot.

09-11-2016 01:20PM

BoatMad wrote: »

That maybe the case , but none have anything like the power of the US to influence world affairs

True, but he can't do much damage without the approval of Congress, e.g. go to war or lower federal taxes.

I expect most of Trump's sins will be sins of omission: the deals he won't strike with international allies to secure the volatile conflict zones, the deals he won't strike on environmental protection, the progress that won't be made in healthcare and education, worsening class and racial divisions.

He'll also be a lot more willing to sign regressive legislation that Congress gives him, without the focus or mental acumen to analyse legislation like most other Presidents, almost all of whom have previously held public office.

I'm not dismissing Trump, I'm just saying we should keep cool heads about it. (I'm not accusing you of doing otherwise, I just picked up on your comment about hysteria, which happens to be rampant this morning)

equally one cannot discount the effect of a paralysed Federal government under a weak president that promised much and delivered little

I don't see Federal government being weak at all. I think Congress and the President will strike a lot of deals. I think a lot of republicans have much in common with Trump, Congress will just filter out a lot of the crazier stuff.

Paul Ryan won't be the GOP candidate in 2020, but I believe he will still be House Speaker, and that he will work with Trump as the 'unity' figure.

09-11-2016 01:22PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

What checks and balances? Republicans hold a majority in all branches of the government, legislative (both houses), executive and judicial.

Can you seriously not distinguish between Trump, who isn't even a real Republican, and the true, ideological Republicans?

They'll work together on areas of common interest, but there's no way Congress will allow a corporation tax of 15%, for example, and the maaassive deficit that would require.

Akrasia · 09-11-2016 01:23PM

walshb wrote: »

Fair play to Trump. It was either him or a 70 year old granny leading the free world...

Donald Trump is a 70 year old grandfather....

You've just said that Clinton's main disqualifying factor is that she was a woman.

I wonder how many other Trump supporters think this way.

Sofa Spud · 09-11-2016 01:27PM

Well, just got up having stayed with it until about 5 am. Had dozed on and off from about 2am and had decided to go to bed when at about 3, it began to sink in what could happen. I started to check bookie odds, as they are an obvious indicator of where it's going, and watched as it went from 9/7 to 4/11 to 1/6 and finally 1/21 at about 5, when I decided to go to bed with the hope that when I wake, it's all over and sanity reigns.

I called it a car crash election a few days ago and that's the image that seems appropriate now. I had a crash on the N11 a few year ago, where I came off the M11 at that hill near the Beehive, there was a tail back and the guy in front of me had stopped without putting on his hazard lights, so when I realised he had actually stopped, I slammed on the breaks and heard myself have the thought 'Jesus, that was close' - after I had smashed into his rear... I couldn't comprehend that it had happened, and I can't comprehend this has happened - but it has.

So much to think about and discuss, but it's just blather. It's happened.

All I can think about now is that it might, in the long run, be a good thing if it wakes up the establishment and media to the mess that the current system is, a system that made this possible - and that systemic change needs to happen. But I'm not confident that will happen. I'm not sure they still have the political discourse to enable measured discussion on how to 'fix' the system. I'm not confident that Trump will have any chance of achieving unity and that this result will simply solidify the divisions that exist.

But ultimately, we are in such new territory, that I don't think we can have any idea of what's going to happen. Only hope, hope that somehow this does not become a self-fulfilling nightmare and that positives can come out of this. Could TTIP be finally laid to rest? Will American foreign policy be less interventionist? Will there be a healthy improvement in US/Russian relations that creates stability?

Who knows....

Overheal · 09-11-2016 01:28PM

It looks like people have spent 8 years whining about wanting the keys back and now after obstructing for 8 years to demonstrate that the government is broken by breaking it they have the keys back and I guess we get to see how far off the cliff the bus will jump. Maybe it will fly. Who knows.

I'm just surprised half of his support comes from derangement.

Watching the Supreme Court will be interesting. His appointees will help insure even the most common sense gun laws are shot down; that Citizens United stands as gilded as Trump Tower; the voting rights act will remain gutted for a generation.

Don't even know what will happen to healthcare. The GOP has no plan in place to replace the current system and no stated goal to turn around the drug costs that are out of control. For that matter then GOP is a shattered mess of ideologies and I think the only thing that gets them all working together is the **** they all love: getting rid of Obamacare, banning abortions, defunding women's health clinics, and tax breaks for the rich because "it will work this time guys"

Ultimately we knew it might happen. Bernie warned them. Bernie supporters warned them. The DNC played antics and wanted Their Girl to run and it seems to have cost them everything.

Minorities are in for a most disgusting 4 years most of all. And I don't want to think about what happens internationally, but it sure won't be peace in our time.

Chips Lovell · 09-11-2016 01:29PM

Akrasia wrote: »

You've just said that Clinton's main disqualifying factor is that she was a woman..

Not a woman, a granny. Grandads are OK. Just not grannies.

Mr.Micro · 09-11-2016 01:34PM

Billy86 wrote: »

Well given the tight margins in the key states, it's beyond doubt if Trump wins, that Comey was the deciding factor in the election.

Dow Jones has already come down considerably more than on 9/11, per Tom Brokaw.

The Americans got who they wanted. Trump got what he wanted. He has a big job ahead of him and I am not so sure previous Republican hung ho politics, both domestic and foreign policy wise, will cut it. To my mind Trump is a loose cannon. He will see how constrained he is when he takes office, unless he surrounds himself with Neocons, then they will control him.

Clinton is hated and her phoney style. She is not even a real Demcrat.

We in Ireland could be in for a rough time with Brexit and our Corporation tax re US.

walshb · 09-11-2016 01:36PM

Akrasia wrote: »

Donald Trump is a 70 year old grandfather....
I wonder how many other Trump supporters think this way.

I'd says a fair few.

learn_more · 09-11-2016 01:37PM

walshb wrote: »

Fair play to Trump. It was either him or a 70 year old granny leading the free world...

That's without doubt the stupidest comment I've ever heard.

Overheal · 09-11-2016 01:41PM

This may or may not work out for terror:

"Oh I see you planning to bomb Boston there. You wanna go? You wanna try me? I might drone strike you and your posse or I might level Baghdad roll the ****ing dice who's the crazy one here son."

Mr.Micro · 09-11-2016 01:41PM

The pollsters got it wrong again. People are much more switched on these days. Everyone is most media savvy and the pollsters need to invent new sampling and analytical methods as they are the laughing stock.

2016 U.S. Presidential Race Megathread Mark 2.

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