Louise O Neill on rape culture.

OldNotWIse · 08-11-2016 05:35PM

py2006 wrote: »

I think you know what I meant.

You're wrong. If I knew what you meant I wouldn't have asked you for clarification.

Edit: just read back through and saw that your post was in response to someone saying they were sorry you were gropped. So I'm sorry I didn't realize that! (but genuinely curious when I asked, I'm not into the Boards sway of posting leading or pedantic questions to start a row)

I don't see my experience as that big a deal either. To be honest I was more angry at the fúcktard who did it, and angry at myself for being too in shock to stop him or give him the wallop he so deserved. It upset me because it brought back flashbacks of events from my past that WERE far more serious but if it weren't for my past and the grab was in isolation...it may not have angered me as much as it did.

Joe Musashi · 08-11-2016 06:05PM

Do this lot have a unique thought in their heads or do they just copy in its entirety what they hear or see on American campuses?

The Specialist · 08-11-2016 06:17PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

You don't see it as a big deal that it happened to you or someone else?

1990s generation v generation snowflake. A better time when people didn't need to have terms for every little slight or be perpetually offended/victimised.

Magmas · 08-11-2016 07:49PM

What is being called "rape culture" is really an effect of the normalisation of promiscuity that's occurred in recent decades. Rape being regarded as a really terrible crime has traditionally gone hand and hand with sex being restricted or at the very least there being the notion of an ideally appropriate context for it. With the latter notions being completely discarded in lieu of modern values which are based on abstract notions of human freedom, the line between behavior that is deemed perfectly OK and the second worst crime has become incredibly thin. When the moral code for sex goes out the window, there will inevitably be chaos. No culture in the history of humanity has ever regarded sex as something completely trivial and casual as the modern west now does, except perhaps some civilizations right before they collapsed.

osmiumartist · 08-11-2016 07:51PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Why do people seem so sure it doesn't happen because they don't see it. ? It happened to me, it happened to my boss, and another two girls I know, all different situations.
Me in a nightclub
Boss grabbed by the vagina in a hotel
A friend had a hand stuck up her skirt walking down a street
Another girl I met told me about when she was a teenager an old man lifted her school jumper and groped her boobs.
A girl earlier on this thread said she was groped walking down the street.

I get it: people don't like to hear about it as it's painful to hear about. It certainly does happen.

For the 24823746th time.
Not rape.
Not culture.
Perhaps "groping problem"? What is it about SJWs thinking they can just swap "grope" for "rape" and think nobody will notice? Or is a rape no more traumatic than a grope if they are interchangeable?

midlandsmissus · 08-11-2016 07:57PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

For the 24823746th time.
Not rape.
Not culture.
Perhaps "groping problem"? What is it about SJWs thinking they can just swap "grope" for "rape" and think nobody will notice? Or is a rape no more traumatic than a grope if they are interchangeable?

As I said before, my being grabbed by the vagina was the least serious sexual assault I have experienced, and I notice the woman above me also says this.

My more serious experiences are too upsetting for me to talk about and also I think it would upset other people.

The above is a symptom of a bigger problem, and I would love us to all work together for a better future.

midlandsmissus · 08-11-2016 08:01PM

Magmas wrote: »

What is being called "rape culture" is really an effect of the normalisation of promiscuity that's occurred in recent decades. Rape being regarded as a really terrible crime has traditionally gone hand and hand with sex being restricted or at the very least there being the notion of an ideally appropriate context for it. With the latter notions being completely discarded in lieu of modern values which are based on abstract notions of human freedom, the line between behavior that is deemed perfectly OK and the second worst crime has become incredibly thin. When the moral code for sex goes out the window, there will inevitably be chaos. No culture in the history of humanity has ever regarded sex as something completely trivial and casual as the modern west now does, except perhaps some civilizations right before they collapsed.

I completely disagree: I would say that the Catholic Church telling men that they were better than women, and telling everyone that sex is bad, is one if the reasons we have so many sexual problems and attitudes in this country in particular.
Thankfully young people are starting to question the grip the Catholic church had on people

osmiumartist · 08-11-2016 08:01PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

As I said before, my being grabbed by the vagina was the least serious sexual assault I have experienced, and I notice the woman above me also says this.

My more serious experiences are too upsetting for me to talk about and also I think it would upset other people.

The above is a symptom of a bigger problem, and I would love us to all work together for a better future.

As I said, then there's a groping problem.
Is it rape? No.
Is it pervasive and supported by anything close to a majority of society? No.
So no rape culture.
Look, you have my support and I'd have their hands chopped off, but why not use the proper words? Groping is not raping. A problem is not a culture.

08-11-2016 08:19PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I completely disagree: I would say that the Catholic Church telling men that they were better than women, and telling everyone that sex is bad, is one if the reasons we have so many sexual problems and attitudes in this country in particular.
Thankfully young people are starting to question the grip the Catholic church had on people

Starting to?

I think that process started in the late 1950s. No well-adjusted adult under the age of 60 allows themselves to be dictated-to by any cleric in this country.

I agree that clerical influence was a massive problem in Ireland, as was sexual abuse committed by clerics. But I don't see how anybody can seriously assert that some drunken creep grabs a young woman's thigh because of the Catholic church.

It seems to me that some people need to invent ever more elaborate reasons to hate the Catholic church (which by the way, I have no reason to support) when a lot of this is, frankly, dead and buried. The wrongs of the Catholic church should be acknowledged, but the bogeyman is dead.

I doubt the problem is any more, or less, serious than it is in in France or the UK. My own mother has some mental stories about working as an au pair in France in the 1960s, and how inappropriately men behaved in secular, anti-religious France e.g. sexually propositioning women in the street, 'ordinary' men following women who clearly weren't interested and persisting in talking to them. I have no doubt she felt a lot safer walking down a street in Dublin, catholic city or not.

Society and secular standards probably have a lot more to do with the problem of inappropriate male sexual behaviour which, although rather a clunky expression, is a lot more accurate than 'rape culture'.

Magmas · 08-11-2016 08:29PM

@Midlandsmissus "I completely disagree: I would say that the Catholic Church telling men that they were better than women, and telling everyone that sex is bad, is one if the reasons we have so many sexual problems and attitudes in this country in particular.
Thankfully we are starting to move away from the grip the Catholic church on people's morals and beliefs."

While I agree the catholic church did cause sexual repression, the unfortunate result of this has been a shift to the other extreme of sexual 'over-expression'. Now the commonplace idea has become that any restrictions on sexuality were only ever a result of impositions laid upon the populous by priests because they were celibate themselves and therefore didn't want anyone else having any fun either, and without this human society would have consisted of one big jolly orgy. These are incredibly naive notions, yet they've become commonplace.

The widespread availability of contraceptives have divorced sex from child bearing but only conceptually. In truth; the sex act, love, marriage and child bearing are all bound up together in the human mind, they are not mutually exclusive. Our minds contain all of the experience of our ancestors from past generations, who for them all of these things went together, so they also do for us. We are influenced very strongly by the modern notion that you can just have a clean break from the past ala Marxism and disregard all tradition.

Just as there are external laws of nature there are also internal laws to humans, and one of these laws is that sex is definitely not something trivial and casual to us, but when we go against these laws because the modern values are all based on a false idea of separated individuality which is abstracted from reality, we suffer collective "karma" i.e. the problems pointed out by women in this thread.

Magmas · 08-11-2016 08:42PM

Moreover on your other point, the now common idea that the polar relationship between man and woman was traditionally vertical (or power-based) rather than horizontal (or complimentary) is simply a case of us projecting our modern ideals onto the past. Nowadays, society's value system has become completely based on the notion that 'personal power = happiness' and because men naturally possess traits more conductive to personal power, women feel they are at a loss and begin to believe that femininity is inferior to masculinity and that history consisted of the oppression of women by men.

osmiumartist · 08-11-2016 08:43PM

Magmas wrote: »

The widespread availability of contraceptives have divorced sex from child bearing but only conceptually

Nice turn of phrase!

Magmas wrote: »

Just as there are external laws of nature there are also internal laws to humans, and one of these laws is that sex is definitely not something trivial and casual to us, but when we go against these laws because the modern values are all based on a false idea of separated individuality which is abstracted from reality, we suffer collective "karma" i.e. the problems pointed out by women in this thread.

That's garbage. Look at all the other primates shagging left, right and centre. Our lingering reverence and "fear" of sex is a social construct. There nothing instinctive about it. Hence it's gradually fading as we are enlightened.

Magmas · 08-11-2016 08:51PM

Primates weren't concerned about whose child was whose, nor did they need monogamy to maintain order in larger groups. Humans did, and hence sex has become intimately bound up with these things in our unconscious. Sex can indeed become functionally "casual" to more highly evolved human beings, but we are certainly not at that level yet collectively and for the most part when it is treated as such by people it always results in total chaos.

Arevaci · 08-11-2016 09:04PM

osmiumartist wrote: »

Nice turn of phrase!That's garbage. Look at all the other primates shagging left, right and centre. Our lingering reverence and "fear" of sex is a social construct. There nothing instinctive about it. Hence it's gradually fading as we are enlightened.

Sex is instinctively feared by women because human babies have big heads (i.e., pregnancy can easily kill a woman) and require intensive care for a much longer time than primates.

A woman that has sex left, right and center without securing a guy that will invest in her and support her will soon get selected out of the population. She may have lots of children but they will likely struggle to survive to adulthood without the investment of a father.

Woman can get very horny alright, but in the context of some sort of emotional connection with a guy.

Arevaci · 08-11-2016 09:05PM

Something interesting I’ve noticed when talking about this topic is that women are really enthusiastic about talking about their personal groping incidences. They’ll describe it as horrible and disgusting yet this is in contrast to the enthusiasm with which they talk about it. My theory to explain this incongruence of emotion is that these stories allow women to portray themselves in a positive light – i.e., I’m so physically attractive that men can’t keep their hands off me. Now these groping incidences obviously do happen, some very serious and seedy, but if every grouping story corresponded with reality, groping would be ubiquitous, you’d see it on every Luas journey, night out, walk down the street. Maybe I’ve lived a sheltered life but I’ve never once encountered a significant groping incident, yet when this topic comes up almost every girl will describe a groping incident.

So here’s what I think happens sometimes. A drunk guy accidentally grazes against a girl. That girl goes back to her friends and is like “Do you see that creep he touched me”. She gets sympathy from her friends and gets to express her physical desirability to them. The next time she tells the story the details get more sordid in order to make it a better story. If this happens enough times you could see how a rape culture could be perceived in Ireland despite Irish men being far more timid than men from most other cultures (a bigger problem I hear from my friends is that the guys they like are too dopey to talk to them).

A more real life example is Dr. Ciara Kelly on the telly one of the nights. She described a story of how an Italian guy went up to her, licked her on the neck and walked on by. I’m guessing something happened but the base rate of random neck licking in a public place is so low that I highly doubt this story – more realistic that he whispered something suggestive in her ear, sniffed her etc. But the neck licking story presents her as this desirable goddess and confirms her feminist viewpoint that the majority of men are creeps.

When it comes to rape, that’s a completely different story, the level of shame and guilt is so high that the person generally doesn’t want to tell it to anyone.

LLMMLL · 08-11-2016 09:06PM

I think if anyone examines their own experiences honestly they'll see problems of inappropriate sexual behaviour.

Last time I was out. Walking home. A good bit ahead of me was a very tall broad young guy who tried to grab every single solo woman that was walking towards us. Left all the women with males alone. I caught up with him and chatted to him. He wasn't trying to drag them off somewhere, he probably thought he was being friendly. He wasn't some aberrant psychopath than can just be dismissed as an outlier.

Time I went out before that I was in McDonald's Grafton St. Group of 4 "lads" sitting down eating. One louder than the others. A group of girls walked by and he stands on his chair and starts screaming "black dress come here, black dress, I just want to talk to you, black dress you f*****ing b***h come back etc."

LLMMLL · 08-11-2016 09:13PM

Arevaci wrote: »

They’ll describe it as horrible and disgusting yet this is in contrast to the enthusiasm with which they talk about it. My theory to explain this incongruence of emotion is that these stories allow women to portray themselves in a positive light – i.e., I’m so physically attractive that men can’t keep their hands off me.

Maybe they're just happy to be able to talk about a horrible experience. Before the whole everyday sexism thing happened, if you brought this up it would have been seen as inappropriate conversation. Most people just wouldn't want to hear it. Clearly a lot of people still don't want to hear it.

Now these groping incidences obviously do happen, some very serious and seedy, but if every grouping story corresponded with reality, groping would be ubiquitous, you’d see it on every Luas journey, night out, walk down the street. Maybe I’ve lived a sheltered life but I’ve never once encountered a significant groping incident, yet when this topic comes up almost every girl will describe a groping incident.

So here’s what I think happens sometimes. A drunk guy accidentally grazes against a girl. That girl goes back to her friends and is like “Do you see that creep he touched me”. She gets sympathy from her friends and gets to express her physical desirability to them. The next time she tells the story the details get more sordid in order to make it a better story. If this happens enough times you could see how a rape culture could be perceived in Ireland despite Irish men being far more timid than men from most other cultures (a bigger problem I hear from my friends is that the guys they like are too dopey to talk to them).

But I've actually never once encountered a girl overreacting to someone brushing by them. By your logic it could never have happened.

A more real life example is Dr. Ciara Kelly on the telly one of the nights. She described a story of how an Italian guy went up to her, licked her on the neck and walked on by. I’m guessing something happened but the base rate of random neck licking in a public place is so low that I highly doubt this story – more realistic that he whispered something suggestive in her ear, sniffed her etc. But the neck licking story presents her as this desirable goddess and confirms her feminist viewpoint that the majority of men are creeps.

I'm male and a was standing in Temple Bar waiting for a friend about 2 months ago. A passing male actually grabbed my crotch. Just because its completely outrageous and rare doesn't mean it didn't happen.

osmiumartist · 08-11-2016 09:14PM

Arevaci wrote: »

Woman can get very horny alright, but in the context of some sort of emotional connection with a guy.

That is complete and utter hogwash. You think every one night stand is with a guy she thinks is marrying material? Or are they all rapes?

midnight city · 08-11-2016 09:19PM

I have had my arse nipped by women and slapped by women a few times, once even at school. I'm sure everyone has a similar story. It didn't bother me in the slightest.

Magmas · 08-11-2016 09:23PM

In past history, humanity consisted of tribes and groups in perpetual war. When one tribe would conquer another, they would often rape their women as an act of ultimate domination. Since then, these tribes and groups have settled into nations, relatively at peace with one another. However, this has constituted a shift in the psyche, where rather than collectives being at war with other collectives in gross terms, now every individual is at war with every other individual in a subtle sense. In this set-up, men regard casual sex unconsciously as being like "conquering" or dominating other men's potential wives and child bearers. Sex in the modern world has become highly dysfunctional. Narcissistic on the side of the male, and masochistic on the side of the female.

midnight city · 08-11-2016 09:26PM

Magmas wrote: »

In this set-up, men regard casual sex unconsciously as being like "conquering" or dominating other men's potential wives and child bearers.

Ah come on now, this is nonsense.

08-11-2016 09:26PM

Magmas wrote: »

In past history, humanity consisted of tribes and groups in perpetual war. When one tribe would conquer another, they would often rape their women as an act of ultimate humiliation. Since then, these tribes and groups have settled into nations, relatively at peace with one another. However, this has constituted a shift in the psyche ... In this set-up, men regard casual sex unconsciously as being like "conquering" other men's potential wives

Do you have any evidence to demonstrate some 'shift in the psyche', or is it something you just dreamed up which is intended to sound profound?

I'm not even asking for scientific research, even a sociological theory which some academic editor has ever accepted for publication.

Magmas · 08-11-2016 09:38PM

"Ah come on now, this is nonsense."

It might not be as crazy as you think, but remember I am talking in terms of depth psychology. Just as when you are a male you either take two active attitudes to other males; you identify with them or scapegoat them. You also take these two active attitudes to women but in a very different way, identifying with them meaning wishing to have a long-term relationship with them and scapegoating them meaning you wish to have merely casual sex with them. As long as the identification/scapegoating process happens in your relation to other men, it will always happen in relation to women too.

"Do you have any evidence to demonstrate some 'shift in the psyche', or is it something you just dreamed up which is intended to sound profound?

I'm not even asking for scientific research, even a sociological theory which some academic editor has ever accepted for publication."

Any sociological developmental theorist will tell you that human cultures have been evolving along a spectrum from collectivistic to more and more individualistic, and have done so in several monumental shifts, namely tribal to fuedal to traditional to modern, with perhaps many minor stages in between.

osmiumartist · 08-11-2016 09:43PM

Magmas wrote: »

Just as when you are a male you either take two active attitudes to other males; you identify with them or scapegoat them.

As you were just asked: did you read this somewhere or is it entirely the fruit of your own research...

Magmas · 08-11-2016 09:53PM

Why would that matter? If you disagree, say why and we can have a discussion to come to the truth of the matter. Just because something isn't "peer reviewed" by someone in academia does not mean it can then automatically be regarded as unreliable. We've been taken in by that idea owing to how our cultural dogma is that only empirical facts can be counted as true, and therefore the individuals or organisations with the most empirical investigative power are the authorities on everything.

me_right_one · 08-11-2016 09:59PM

Magmas wrote: »

What is being called "rape culture" is really an effect of the normalisation of promiscuity that's occurred in recent decades. Rape being regarded as a really terrible crime has traditionally gone hand and hand with sex being restricted or at the very least there being the notion of an ideally appropriate context for it. With the latter notions being completely discarded in lieu of modern values which are based on abstract notions of human freedom, the line between behavior that is deemed perfectly OK and the second worst crime has become incredibly thin. When the moral code for sex goes out the window, there will inevitably be chaos. No culture in the history of humanity has ever regarded sex as something completely trivial and casual as the modern west now does, except perhaps some civilizations right before they collapsed.

+1000 to this post. If anything, we have a "promiscuous" culture. Men can access porn any time they want, page 3 of the Sun was considered "soft" porn in its day, films like American Pie glorify the act of losing your virginity while still a minor. Its a long way off "rape culture", but the value of sex has definitely been watered down. And its NOTHING to do with religion.

osmiumartist · 08-11-2016 10:05PM

Magmas wrote: »

Why would that matter? If you disagree, say why and we can have a discussion to come to the truth of the matter. Just because something isn't "peer reviewed" by someone in academia does not mean it can then automatically be regarded as unreliable. We've been taken in by that idea owing to how our cultural dogma is that only empirical facts can be counted as true, and therefore the individuals or organisations with the most empirical investigative power are the authorities on everything.

Not playing that game, sorry. It's your job to back up your claims before I have to disprove anything. Sounds suspiciously like a faith argument to me.

Zulu · 08-11-2016 10:06PM

Magmas wrote: »

Why would that matter? If you disagree, say why and we can have a discussion to come to the truth of the matter. Just because something isn't "peer reviewed" by someone in academia does not mean it can then automatically be regarded as unreliable. We've been taken in by that idea owing to how our cultural dogma is that only empirical facts can be counted as true, and therefore the individuals or organisations with the most empirical investigative power are the authorities on everything.

I'm not sure if I agree/disagree with your other posts, but this one I know I do agree with.

py2006 · 08-11-2016 10:06PM

me_right_one wrote: »

Men can access porn any time they want

Are women limited to when they access it?

me_right_one · 08-11-2016 10:08PM

py2006 wrote: »

Are women limited to when they access it?

No! Thats exactly my point! Sex on demand is everywhere. We dont have a "rape culture", but we do have a "promiscuous culture", which both men and women are equally guilty of feeding! There are even some kids going to my daughters primary school with "playboy" schoolbags! Its nuts!

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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