Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Arghus · 07-11-2016 12:46AM

What do we deem ignominious enough to be "sexual assault". Are we talking about full on penetrative rape? Or do we regard things as unsolicited and unwanted fondling and groping as assault too? I'm going to mention the word that no-one likes in debates like this - anecdotally.

I go out most weekends and it can often be with a mixed group of men and women. Generally speaking, I would say nine times out of ten, I usually hear one of the women say that some random guy going by, typically in a people-clogged stairs, copped a feel or slapped their arse during some point of the night. It seems to me that there's always a chance, as a woman, that some caveman is going to put his unwanted hand on you if you go out for the night in Ireland. I don't know whether we are better or worse than other countries in this regard, it would only be a rubbish guess on my part. But I do know that anecdotally through the years I've heard so many stories from women I know - girlfriends, friends, sisters, co-workers - about how they've had to deal with all sorts of what I would regard as sexual assault - everything from being groped as far as being pressurized into sex. And, some of the times, things like a casual grope from a randomer are recounted as if they are almost typical, if unwanted events, from a night out. It's an eye opening experience to hear from some women just how much aggressive sexual behavior they've had to put up with over the years.

Now, maybe I'm extraordinarily atypical male whose female circle of friends and family happen to have had brushes with sexual assault down through the years that far outstrip the statistical averages and reality experienced by many. Alas, I don't think so. I'm a pretty regular guy, with a pretty ordinary social circle. So when I read things like 40% of women have experienced some sort of sexual assault, I'm inclined not to be so dismissive of that percentage and its implications, just because it seems a bit high to me at first

A lot of posters on here have pooh poohed the veracity of the numbers, methods and conclusions of various reports and studies that other posters have referenced, which support the argument of relatively high instances of sexual assault towards women. Now, genuine question - We all read a lot about these statistics, 40% , 1 in 3, etc,etc. I'd like to know how real they are. So, I'd be interested to see the contrary evidence, the research that shows that sexual assault towards women is overstated. It's out there right...

BoatMad · 07-11-2016 12:46AM

We've to make sure that consent is a concept that every person having sex or sexual contact is aware of and sees as an integral part of the process.

Again, lovely soundbites , are you suggesting that adults engaging in sex, swap legal contracts !

Pat Mustard · 07-11-2016 12:51AM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Personally cant stand her ad think she is a proper self obsessed famer, but the figures for sexual assault on women is scary.

No woman should ever feel in such danger

The problem is that there is an ever increasing gulf between what is scary and what is accurate.

A few days ago, I saw an American documentary on the TV called The Gunshop.

The customers of the gunshop expressed fears about gun wielding criminals and terrorists. There was a couple who wanted to protect themselves from intruders. There was a single mother who wanted to protect her two small boys. At the shooting range, she commented that if she were to be injured or killed, her nine year old boy would be able to protect the smaller boy with her pistol.

The sense of paranoia was all-pervasive but the owners of the gunshop did a handsome trade.

We can see this kind of American imported paranoia in Ireland now, albeit under a different guise. The paranoia does not relate to gun wielding criminals and terrorists but to the nebulous threat of 'rape culture'.

This isn't about guns and this isn't about rape. This is about fear and paranoia, spreading like wildfire. This sells guns in America and now it sells books in Ireland.

Accuracy and truth are being sacrificed at the altar of paranoia.

ligerdub · 07-11-2016 12:57AM

Arghus wrote: »

A lot of posters on here have pooh poohed the veracity of the numbers, methods and conclusions of various reports and studies that other posters have referenced, which support the argument of relatively high instances of sexual assault towards women. Now, genuine question - We all read a lot about these statistics, 40% , 1 in 3, etc,etc. I'd like to know how real they are. So, I'd be interested to see the contrary evidence, the research that shows that sexual assault towards women is overstated. It's out there right...

A lot of people, myself included, have asked questions about the methods used and the credibility/level of independence of the researchers. I think that's a reasonable thing to do, as it would be for any research worth its salt. It should also be relatively easy to contend with if it were a decent study. Thus far we've seen no evidence to show that it does. Any that we've seen have found to be wanting in the extreme.

I'm not aware of any government or independent body that has sanctioned an independent research or study into this area. Specifically one which drew from a representative sample of the population. You assume one is out there, I would not make that assumption.

BoatMad · 07-11-2016 12:59AM

I personally like to understand what the term " sexual assault " actually means to many people

IN the non fatal offences against the person act

assault is generally defined other then :

No such offence is committed if the force or impact, not being intended or likely to cause injury, is in the circumstances such as is generally acceptable in the ordinary conduct of daily life and the defendant does not know or believe that it is in fact unacceptable to the other person.

SO, while " groping etc " might be a distasteful " social " practice , its clearly not intended to cause injury.

only asking , cause I feel the definition for some people is anyone laying a hand on a women is " assault "

me_right_one · 07-11-2016 01:02AM

ash23 wrote: »

Would the same apply if out with your mate and he's about to head off home with some girl who is very drunk? Or looks young?
Would it be common to say to him "I think you should forget that one, she's too drunk, not worth the risk" or ask him if he's checked for sure she's over 17 etc.

Of course!!! It has never been any other way!

ash23 wrote: »

And to be honest when I see the victim blaming posts or comments about personal responsibility or women "changing their minds" about whether they've been assaulted or not, I am not convinced that there isn't a problem with how parts of society view that violation of women.

I'm not saying YOU changed your mind, but there is an undercurrent (as the subject of this thread, Ms. O'Neill, is guilty of feeding into) of "we women are ALWAYS the victim, men are AWLAYS at fault" creeping into social media.

This notion of "rape culture" is the latest version of it, and to be honest, its bollox. It has to stop, A) because its watering down the real "rape cultures" that DO exist in Pakistan, Afghanistan etc., and

because it will result in innocent men going to jail.

Your argument that awareness around consent should be to the fore is absolutely spot on. But SJW's like Louise O'Neill and her "rape culture" accusations, are causing the issue more harm than good.

ash23 · 07-11-2016 01:13AM

BoatMad wrote: »

I personally like to understand what the term " sexual assault " actually means to many people

IN the non fatal offences against the person act

assault is generally defined other then :

No such offence is committed if the force or impact, not being intended or likely to cause injury, is in the circumstances such as is generally acceptable in the ordinary conduct of daily life and the defendant does not know or believe that it is in fact unacceptable to the other person.

SO, while " groping etc " might be a distasteful " social " practice , its clearly not intended to cause injury.

only asking , cause I feel the definition for some people is anyone laying a hand on a women is " assault "

Irish legal definition is sexual assault is the indecent assault of a man or woman.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/law_on_sex_offences_in_ireland.html

Can't find an Irish legal definition of indecent assault but seems to be any sexual touching other than rape where there's no consent or no ability to give consent.

Aggravated sexual assault is using threats or violence to sexually assault.

BoatMad · 07-11-2016 01:19AM

Can't find an Irish legal definition of indecent assault but seems to be any sexual touching other than rape where there's no consent or no ability to give consent.

Leaving aside the issue of consent ( for a minute )

Indecent assault in ireland is no longer a definition, its has been replaced with sexual assault. The term " sexual " is not defined
in the Non Fatal Offences against the Person " assault " is defined , in essence the term requires injury or the belief that injury is likely got be defined as " assault "

There is the term " in the circumstances such as is generally acceptable in the ordinary conduct of daily life" , I suppose it might com down too whether " groping " etc is regarded as normal daily life , ( I suppose if 40% experience it , maybe it is " daily ")

The reason I ask , is statistics on " sexual assault " are using what definition of " assault ". ?

Dr Jakub · 07-11-2016 08:15AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you serious? Have you been to a party where things turned ugly, sex, violence, drugs etc?

Not sure if it needs spelling out, but will do. The fellows who were there denied it. Obviously enough...did you think they'd turn themselves in? The friend I have in the group, who was allegedly one of the witnesses, tells me he was downstairs and knew something bad was happening, and regrets not going upstairs to intervene. The Gardai say it definitely happened, but the victim wouldn't go further.

Drugs? No, apart from the odd joint. Rape and violence, definitely not.

Have you considered not hanging out with scumbags?

Sweetemotion wrote: »

As a man I've been woke up a couple of times from partners and one night stands receiving oral sex.

Was I sexually assaulted and should those women be spending years in prison?

I've brought drunk women home and we had sex. There was no consent, it just happened. I guess I raped them. But maybe they should go to jail too for raping me?

Also on the 1 in 4; I thought the sacred figure which can't be questioned is 1 in 3?

newport2 · 07-11-2016 08:26AM

me_right_one wrote: »

I'm not saying YOU changed your mind, but there is an undercurrent (as the subject of this thread, Ms. O'Neill, is guilty of feeding into) of "we women are ALWAYS the victim, men are AWLAYS at fault" creeping into social media.

This notion of "rape culture" is the latest version of it, and to be honest, its bollox. It has to stop, A) because its watering down the real "rape cultures" that DO exist in Pakistan, Afghanistan etc., and because it will result in innocent men going to jail.

Your argument that awareness around consent should be to the fore is absolutely spot on. But SJW's like Louise O'Neill and her "rape culture" accusations, are causing the issue more harm than good.

Very few problems in society that you can totally absolve 50% of the population of any participation. Hence the likes of Louise O'Neill, like you say, is doing more harm than good, because they won't accept anything that doesn't fit their mantra, "Men bad, women good". Most likely a lot of the factors about the problem being looked at are getting ignored. But I expect she knows this, she's making a living off it.

Remember seeing a quote here before which summed it up:

“There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”
- Booker T Washington

Not dismissing genuine cases in any way, but sensationalising and inflating the issue just immediately makes it lose credibility and damages the cause.
And RTE getting someone who publicly identifies as a misandrist to try and get a message through to men would make me think this is not about raising awareness at all.

As for the 40% figure, well it depends on how you define sexual assault. I'm sure a large percentage of people have had something stolen from them in their lifetime, but nowhere near that figure have had their house broken into.

timmy880 · 07-11-2016 08:53AM

HiGlo wrote: »

I'm not sure if I'll manage to post this without sounding like a feminist. I'm distinctly not (for the record).

As a female, my own understanding of rape culture is a society that allows sexist/chauvinistic behaviour, or stuff like objectification of women in a sexual way, cat calling, random groping on nights out (or wherever) etc.. to go unchecked and allow it to become "normal" or to be expected.
It's a society that doesn't place huge emphasis on how wrong it is to breach consent, or acknowledge how intimidating some situations can be for women.
It's not about the actual act of rape itself, it's more, in my opinion, about the general attitudes or behaviours of the society as a whole that subtly support or reinforce the attitude that rape isn't all that big a deal (perhaps evidenced in sentencing for the crime), or that rape is an unsurprising outcome in some instances eg she was very drunk, scantily dressed etc...

This is just my own general interpretation. As to whether I think it exists in Ireland.... Certainly not when compared to places like India, South Africa etc, but I think there is some element of it alright.
I don't think I would say that it definitely doesn't exist, but I think there's a strong enough majority that doesn't subscribe to it to keep it at bay.

I have never experienced rape myself or know anyone that has, so my knowledge of this whole area is limited but I would imagine that there are rape victims out there who would strongly contradict the notion that rape culture doesn't exist. And I'm sure their own personal experience has entitled them to think that.

I have watched both Audrie & Daisy and also The Hunting Ground on Netflix, but I must admit, I didn't watch Louise O'Neill's programme. For me, The Hunting Ground shows a prime example of rape culture. Shockingly so.

ETA: Apologies, I'm very aware that my post is referencing only female rape. I fully acknowledge that male rape exists and it's just as wrong as any other kind of rape.

I found this a very insightful post. And I think it highlights one of the main issues in this debate. The acts being labelled as "rape culture" don't necessarily mean rape but could include things like the objectification of women or degrading sexual comments..

I think this is where problem occurs on both sides of the debate. "Rape culture" as a term is used to capture all sorts of behaviour including degrading sexual comments and the female poster above correctly highlights this as being the case. Whereas men see this as a direct reference to their entire gender in Ireland being labelled as rapists. (That's the general opinion I see from reading through the thread)....

There is a clear difference between sexually degrading comments and then the act of rape. The fact that both are covered under the "rape culture" umbrella is inaccurate and that's where the debate can fall to pieces at times. Surely a different term is needed....

As someone brilliantly pointed out above with the analogy, being mugged and having your house broken into are 2 very different things.

cloudatlas · 07-11-2016 08:58AM

ligerdub wrote: »

I'm not even going as far as court cases in this context. I'm speaking purely from the point of view of what happens within the university.

Well you should because that is where these cases often go. It is confidential at the reporting stage. It then gets passed to the legal authorities. What bits of this do you not understand. Of course the first course of action is to listen to the victim get their side and then explore it, what kind of course of action, nothing happens until the facts are gathered, what course of action would you follow.

All I'm saying is that it is positive to encourage victims to come forward, victims who feel alone, isolated and are confused about what has happened to them.

cloudatlas · 07-11-2016 09:05AM

Sweetemotion wrote: »

As a man I've been woke up a couple of times from partners and one night stands recieving oral sex.

Was I sexually assaulted and should those women be spending years in prison?

I think without consent yes, and if you went even further and said 'no I don't want this' and the person didn't listen to you and continued but you know this and are trying to be reductive.

Ralf and Florian · 07-11-2016 09:09AM

Very thin skinned individual.She posts a critical comment about the programme from The Journal on her Twitter page for her and her followers to sneer at. Gawd help us if she ever gets to a position of real influence, it'll be a criminal offense to disagree with Louise O Neill.

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/795395297925099520

newport2 · 07-11-2016 09:10AM

timmy880 wrote: »

I found this a very insightful post. And I think it highlights one of the main issues in this debate. The acts being labelled as "rape culture" don't necessarily mean rape but could include things like the objectification of women or degrading sexual comments..

I think this is where problem occurs on both sides of the debate. "Rape culture" as a term is used to capture all sorts of behaviour including degrading sexual comments and the female poster above correctly highlights this as being the case. Whereas men see this as a direct reference to their entire gender in Ireland being labelled as rapists. (That's the general opinion I see from reading through the thread)....

There is a clear difference between sexually degrading comments and then the act of rape. The fact that both are covered under the "rape culture" umbrella is inaccurate and that's where the debate can fall to pieces at times. Surely a different term is needed....
.

Exactly.

It's like saying we live in a murder culture and then pointing to a woman slapping a man across the face or a man watching "The Sopranos" or anything remotely connected to violence as evidence it exists.

timmy880 · 07-11-2016 09:22AM

The issue with O'Neill is that she wants the topic discussed in further detail which her documentary has definitely achieved, no question about that.

But the problem is if you make an argument against the points she raised she immediately goes off on one and encourages her following to feed this person to the wolves. This is where she loses it. If you want a public conversation raised about very sensitive topics, surely you have to accept that there will be different opinions on said topic......?

midlandsmissus · 07-11-2016 09:24AM

Wibbs wrote: »

1) I'm sorry, but personal anecdote, while of course is personally hurtful and all that may come with that, does not an actual statistic make. Not even close. We go the personal route and we risk reactive mob rule based on eff all.

2) Four in ten, where does that come from? Is it yet another perennial twist on the one in four/five/six(these things rarely agree) stat peddled to the general public since the US college campus Koss study and I use the word "study" extremely loosely? That study, taken as gospel in the Victim Church movement, is so flimsy and full of demonstrable holes it would pass decent muster as a teabag. And yes I can back that up with actual statistics.

In any halfway civilised liberal democracy NO crime, no matter how trivial, never mind getting within an asses roar of sexual assault and/or rape has a victim rate even close to 20 odd per cent(well… maybe speeding). And only in the most addled mind, would someone suggest any crime comes within a rate of nearly fifty per cent. You're actually claiming half of all women have been sexually assaulted? You'd want to be a German woman in Russian controlled Berlin post summer 1945 to get near that kinda stat. I call utter nonsense, nay utter bullshít on that statistic.

If one was to believe that, then the obvious conclusion would be is that nearly half of all men are guilty of sexual assault/rape. Unless scummy bastards and rapists travel around a lot. Again I call hysterical bollocks of the highest quality.

We're through the looking glass here people.

Wibbs you say that with all the flippancy and buoyancy of a man who does not want to see. How could you know!
Every woman, and I mean every woman I know has been sexually assaulted, and it is usually along the lines of what that girl said earlier on this thread: with a man that she knows who she may have been intimate with before, like a partner, who then a different time : assumes he can have what he wants and does not get her consent.
Consent is every time. Ongoing and every time. And I'm not blaming men here: I'm blaming culture, we have Donald Trump saying it's ok to grab women by the pussy, and then I was listening to an Irish radio show where rugby players were ringing in afterwards saying that it was normal locker room talk!
There's a great article I read recently: '7 reasons men don't understand consent' written by a man, where he said some really relevant points.
These are vital conversations that need to be had. Vital.

midlandsmissus · 07-11-2016 09:26AM

www.cracked.com/blog/how-men-are-trained-to-think-sexual-assault-no-big-deal

This article.

Wibbs · 07-11-2016 09:26AM

ash23 wrote: »

Some of us have explained why it took time to come to terms with being assaulted or why we struggled to accept we have.
I refuse to take any personal responsibility for having a few drinks (not falling down drunk or even remotely past being quite tipsy) and going into a friends bed to sleep alone but waking up to find a man assaulting me.

OK not remotely past tipsy, yet this guy apparently stripped you of your clothing and you didn't notice? Secondly "a man" doesn't quite describe this guy does it? Makes him sound all random and predatory. This is a guy who you knew so well you wanted to be in a relationship with him at one point, who you had sex with a few times beforehand and who you "had a kiss" with that night. Did he cross a boundary? Hell yes he crossed a bloody boundary. Is it understandable why he might have thought this wasn't a boundary? Again yes.

There's a difference between "getting in a fight" and someone randomly walking up and punching you.

Indeed there is. However again this wasn't someone randomly walking up and punching you. This was more akin to a boxing match that went a few rounds and your opponent pulls a sucker punch after the bell rings out. Well out of order, but hardly out of the blue.

mzungu wrote: »

Louise O'Neill herself partook in similar shenanigans with her tweet. Is she a part of rape culture too?

Of course not, she's a victim of it.

nullzero wrote: »

Personally I've never groped a woman in such a manner, I wouldn't dream of it, but the double standards are incredible.

Again, of course they are. It's long since been little to do with gender equality and more and more about the protection, near cosseting of one gender over another. As I noted it's all very Victorian in attitude. Women should be the protected gender because of their emotional and physical delicacy and as such should bear little agency, when it doesn't suit.

Think about it another way… I'm at a party, I meet a woman who I've romantic and sexual history with, enough to want to have her as a girlfriend. At said party we have a few drinks and we end up wearing the face off one another. I go to bed to sleep. I wake up, somehow naked and she's beside me giving me a hand job. I am a victim of sexual assault. I didn't realise this at the time, but made my excuses and left and was shaken and in floods of tears later on.

How does that read on an instinctive level? I strongly suspect because the genders are reversed, many are thinking "ah here, cop on to yourself lad, she was more than presumptuous alright, but you were hardly assaulted". Similar kinda stuff has happened to me actually(and these were strangers/ONS, not women I'd had previous with. With women I've had previous with similar has gone on more than once) and no way in hell would I accuse the women in question of sexual assault, never mind rape. I chalked it up to experience, if I even considered it at all. IMH as a grown arsed sexually active adult rightly too.

cloudatlas wrote:

I think without consent yes

If Sweetemotion identified as a woman and wrote "As a woman I've been woken up a couple of times from partners and one night stands recieving oral sex. Was I sexually assaulted?" I seriously doubt you'd have to "think" about it at all and would automatically go "of course you were sexually assaulted!"

So does this mean that male and female sexuality and boundaries are fundamentally different then? That women's sexuality is somehow more protected for some reason? Very old style and yep old style patriarchal women are delicate flowers who are the gatekeepers of chastity indeed. Maybe some bits of The Patriarchy(™) suit more than others? Women and children first folks.

Ralf and Florian wrote:

Gawd help us if she ever gets to a position of real influence, it'll be a criminal offense to disagree with Louise O Neill.

More like a heresy against The Most Holy Church of the Perpetual Victim. That's more how it's framed. Regard her acolytes who respond to her tweets.

Wibbs · 07-11-2016 09:36AM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

www.cracked.com/blog/how-men-are-trained-to-think-sexual-assault-no-big-deal

This article.

Fúck me. Truly Cracked.com is appropriately named. Han Solo and Indiana Jones, rape icons. Oh yes. Never mind he completely avoids the mixed signals coming from women around this. For a start damn near every romantic novel written by and for women has a hero who acts just like Han Solo and Indiana Jones in the way he notes. The plain fact is a man who acts like that will get more willing attention from women, certainly more than the same man asking for constant consent and permission.

timmy880 · 07-11-2016 09:37AM

O'Neill just jokingly called a female a "RIDE" on her twitter feed....

The urban dictionary definition of ride (which is what O'Neill is referring to in this situation): "reference what the person who's on top in a sexual situation"

But in Ireland this language falls under the "rape culture" umbrella currently since it's language of a sexual nature to describe someone's appearance even though it has no reference to the word rape and was said in joking nature on a Monday morning. If a man drunknely calls a girl a RIDE in a nightclub, she could answer yes to the sexual assault phone survey mentioned by a poster earlier.

And therein lies the problem.

_Jamie_ · 07-11-2016 09:38AM

FortySeven wrote: »

2361 sexual offences reported to garda in 2015.

Women's aid website.

Hardly an epidemic?

One out of every 1600 people is a lot.

Advbrd · 07-11-2016 09:46AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Fúck me. Truly Cracked.com is appropriately named. Han Solo and Indiana Jones, rape icons. Oh yes. Never mind he completely avoids the mixed signals coming from women around this. For a start damn near every romantic novel written by and for women has a hero who acts just like Han Solo and Indiana Jones in the way he notes. The plain fact is a man who acts like that will get more willing attention from women, certainly more than the same man asking for constant consent and permission.

A guy I worked with reckoned that "sexual harassment" didn't actually exist, it should be referred to as "ugly sexual harassment". It all depended on the looks of the harasser.

ash23 · 07-11-2016 09:49AM

Wibbs wrote: »

OK not remotely past tipsy, yet this guy apparently stripped you of your clothing and you didn't notice? Secondly "a man" doesn't quite describe this guy does it? Makes him sound all random and predatory. This is a guy who you knew so well you wanted to be in a relationship with him at one point, who you had sex with a few times beforehand and who you "had a kiss" with that night. Did he cross a boundary? Hell yes he crossed a bloody boundary. Is it understandable why he might have thought this wasn't a boundary? Again yes.

Indeed there is. However again this wasn't someone randomly walking up and punching you. This was more akin to a boxing match that went a few rounds and your opponent pulls a sucker punch after the bell rings out. Well out of order, but hardly out of the blue.

Lol love how you twist it against me.

Your comments about women being sexually assaulted and the blame you lay at their door is absolutely disgraceful and if other men in Ireland feel similar then we absolutely have a problem.

You bringing the amount I drank that night into it is exactly the problem. I told him I was going to bed. I did not invite him. I got into bed fully clothed and fell asleep. I did not waken or respond when he came into the room or when he lifted my skirt, pulled aside my underwear and SEXUALLY ASSAULTED me.
Whether I knew him or not, whether I had slept with him a hundred times or not, whether I was drunk or not is an aside. I am a heavy sleeper so it's partly my fault? I kissed him and had sex with him before so I was giving him the wrong idea?

In what world can you justify a man getting into bed with a girl he knows and sticking his fingers in her vagina with zero invitation to do so? I kiss a guy at a party and hours later that gives him the right to do that to me? Oh bless him that he "misunderstood" the situation.

You dismissing it as less because of those things is exactly the reason I went home and didn't report him. Can you imagine a woman being raped by her boyfriend and reporting it and being met with an attitude like yours?
Jesus it defies belief that you think, post and reiterate your victim blaming.

cloudatlas · 07-11-2016 09:50AM

Wibbs wrote: »

If Sweetemotion identified as a woman and wrote "As a woman I've been woken up a couple of times from partners and one night stands recieving oral sex. Was I sexually assaulted?" I seriously doubt you'd have to "think" about it at all and would automatically go "of course you were sexually assaulted!"

I take your point completely and I agree with you I didn't look at the wording of it. I suppose the mocking tone of his post put me off. Yes, if a man or woman is woken up by a partner performing unwanted sexual acts that they haven't consented to / rebuff it is unequivocally sexual assault. Thanks for pointing that out.

Wibbs · 07-11-2016 09:54AM

Advbrd wrote: »

A guy I worked with reckoned that "sexual harassment" didn't actually exist, it should be referred to as "ugly sexual harassment". It all depended on the looks of the harasser.

TBH I don't agree with that at all. There may be a slight truth to it, but too often that's an excuse/justification for unwanted sexual attention. To reverse the genders here: if I'm out of a night and encounter a hen do in full flow and one of the mothers trussed up in a nurses outfit with a face like a made up elbow grabs my arse, or one of the more pleasant featured women grabs my arse, sure I'll be less put off by the latter, but I'll still be thinking and saying "WTF? Get away from me you drunken muppet".

Advbrd · 07-11-2016 09:55AM

cloudatlas wrote: »

I take your point completely and I agree with you I didn't look at the wording of it. I suppose the mocking tone of his post put me off. Yes, if a man or woman is woken up by a partner performing unwanted sexual acts that they haven't consented to / rebuff it is unequivocally sexual assault. Thanks for pointing that out.

Anyday I wake up getting a blow job from a woman is a good day. Now if it was a man, I would consider it assault. Although lately, it's been a bit of a dry spell so maybe...

ligerdub · 07-11-2016 10:01AM

cloudatlas wrote:

Well you should because that is where these cases often go. It is confidential at the reporting stage. It then gets passed to the legal authorities. What bits of this do you not understand. Of course the first course of action is to listen to the victim get their side and then explore it, what kind of course of action, nothing happens until the facts are gathered, what course of action would you follow.

cloudatlas wrote:

All I'm saying is that it is positive to encourage victims to come forward, victims who feel alone, isolated and are confused about what has happened to them.

No, it was you who refered to the universities approach and that it what I had a problem with. I've no problem in them insisting on going forward to the guards, in fact I think they should. I also wouldn't contest the stat about prosecuted cases so I've nothing to add there.

We've had several instances on this board where people have claimed to have been assaulted or heard of rapes that have been acted on people they know. How many of these have been reported to the gardai? This is the action that needs taking.

What I have a problem with is a situation where organisations take these cases, believe the accuser, take action internally, but do nothing beyond that. Basically the accused is tarnished or kicked out of school. If he's guilty that's not enough, if he's innocent then he his life is in tatters through no fault of his own.

TaosHum · 07-11-2016 10:08AM

I don't understand how someone who has proclaimed herself as being a misandrist can be expected to make an unbiased documentary on such a sensitive subject. This woman has books to sell, so of course she is going to pedal the existence of a rape culture in Ireland argument. Even if her argument is not financially motivated, the viewers skepticism of her motivation is still warranted.

If a documentary is to made on this subject, I'd rather it be done by someone who doesn't have something to gain from it. An unbiased piece of journalism, where the question of rape culture in Ireland can be evenly argued and also taking into account that men are also the victims of such abuse.

Wibbs · 07-11-2016 10:10AM

ash23 wrote: »

Your comments about women being sexually assaulted and the blame you lay at their door is absolutely disgraceful and if other men in Ireland feel similar then we absolutely have a problem.

And you accuse me of twisting things? Riiiight so. Where did I "blame" you? Point that part out please and thanks. Where did I say he was blameless? Point that part out please and thanks. I stated quite clearly "Did he cross a boundary? Hell yes he crossed a bloody boundary" and that he was Well out of order.

You bringing the amount I drank that night into it is exactly the problem.

Interesting how you automatically jump to conflate an explanation/description for consent confusion with blame.

when he lifted my skirt, pulled aside my underwear

You wrote "my clothes removed". I think we can be excused for thinking he removed your clothes while you slept. This update is a different thing entirely.

Whether I knew him or not, whether I had slept with him a hundred times or not, whether I was drunk or not is an aside. I am a heavy sleeper so it's partly my fault? I kissed him and had sex with him before so I was giving him the wrong idea?

Of course he got the "wrong idea". I have stated this more than once. All I have also stated is that while wrong it's not such an unexpected idea for him to have.

In what world can you justify a man getting into bed with a girl he knows and sticking his fingers in her vagina with zero invitation to do so?

I never suggested such a world. Point that part out please and thanks.

You dismissing it as less because of those things is exactly the reason I went home and didn't report him. Can you imagine a woman being raped by her boyfriend and reporting it and being met with an attitude like yours?
Jesus it defies belief that you think, post and reiterate your victim blaming.

Sure, that's me, rape apologist. God forbid thinking consent isn't such a continuously updated and nebulous black and white contract.

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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