Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Dyr · 04-11-2016 02:19PM

Even a contrary bollocks like Lydon thinks brexit is mental

Although he's a yank nowadays

A Little Pony · 04-11-2016 02:24PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

I am fundamentally against the EU. It stands for things I just can't accept. The European Commission for me is the antithesis of democracy. The institution was designed to strip democratic rights away from sovereign nations and look to Federalize Europe.
I am against that and it seems the people who voted leave do too.

And now you want democracy subverted so that can leave something you have formed your opinion of by reading the Daily Mail.

The UK was a part of the EU. If you can prove that it was designed the way you say then that is as much down to your MEP's and the MP's who accepted it.

The majority of YOUR parliment are pro EU and do not want to leave.
Instead of whinging because a non binding referendum may actually be taken as 'non binding' maybe Brexiteers should change your MP's first?

It's just an idea like.

I am well aware that the MPs have sold us down the river for 40 years and selling sovereignty off in the bucket load. Theresa May has told Juncker and Merkel she will win the supreme Court case next month, so it actually looks like Parliament won't get a vote.

Christy42 · 04-11-2016 02:25PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ouch!

https://twitter.com/ThomasPride/status/794234879105966080

In fairness populist ignorance is democracy. It is the worst type of government except all the others we have tried.

Democracy does not always provide the best results for the people choosing an option.

Chips Lovell · 04-11-2016 02:27PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

I am well aware that the MPs have sold us down the river for 40 years and selling sovereignty off in the bucket load.

It's a mystery people kept voting them in, isn't it?

A Little Pony · 04-11-2016 02:28PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

I am fundamentally against the EU. It stands for things I just can't accept. The European Commission for me is the antithesis of democracy. The institution was designed to strip democratic rights away from sovereign nations and look to Federalize Europe.
I am against that and it seems the people who voted leave do too.

And now you want democracy subverted so that can leave something you have formed your opinion of by reading the Daily Mail.

The UK was a part of the EU. If you can prove that it was designed the way you say then that is as much down to your MEP's and the MP's who accepted it.

The majority of YOUR parliment are pro EU and do not want to leave.
Instead of whinging because a non binding referendum may actually be taken as 'non binding' maybe Brexiteers should change your MP's first?

It's just an idea like.

What has the daily mail got to do with anything? You always see this argument made by people who disagree with EU skepticism. It is based on profound disagreements with the institution and my political view on democracy.

FrancieBrady · 04-11-2016 02:28PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

I am well aware that the MPs have sold us down the river for 40 years and selling sovereignty off in the bucket load. Theresa May has told Juncker and Merkel she will win the supreme Court case next month, so it actually looks like Parliament won't get a vote.

You have placed yourself in a minority here. Why a 'minority'? Because those 'traitorous MP's' continued to be elected for 40 years. And it also doesn't look like that is going to change unless UKIP win a majority and Labour and the Tories disappear.

MrPudding · 04-11-2016 02:29PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ouch!

https://twitter.com/ThomasPride/status/794234879105966080

Was listening to the radio on the way into work this morning. They have a segment from a reporter in Barnsley who was asking people what they thought of yesterday's High Court decision. This included one man, apoplectic with rage, not at the High Court decision, but that we were still in the EU, he thought we had already left. That is the type of person that has made the decision for a country, and the type of person May and her band of idiot are trying to appease.

MrP

Harika · 04-11-2016 02:30PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

I am well aware that the MPs have sold us down the river for 40 years and selling sovereignty off in the bucket load. Theresa May has told Juncker and Merkel she will win the supreme Court case next month, so it actually looks like Parliament won't get a vote.

I think she said the same thing last month about yesterdays case. The funny thing is, that part of Brexit happened, to have more power over UK by themselves. This happened now, and the decision is to be verified by the British MPs what again is seen as bad, as May and Co are afraid they would vote in a different way as they would like them to vote, so they want to exclude all opposing voices and threats by going to the courts. Sounds more undemocratic to me, than they ever described the EU.

FrancieBrady · 04-11-2016 02:30PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

What has the daily mail got to do with anything? You always see this argument made by people who disagree with EU skepticism. It is based on profound disagreements with the institution and my political view on democracy.

You have still to outline where the EU has behaved in a fascistic way. Or where it has subverted democracies without the aid of those democracies.

I won't hold my breath waiting on that.

A Little Pony · 04-11-2016 02:30PM

Jep Gambardella wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

I am well aware that the MPs have sold us down the river for 40 years and selling sovereignty off in the bucket load.

It's a mystery people kept voting them in, isn't it?

Indeed, but then you do need representatives but I am under no illusion when it comes to MPs. They had no issue for decades selling off the 'family silver' so to speak.

FrancieBrady · 04-11-2016 02:32PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Indeed, but then you do need representatives but I am under no illusion when it comes to MPs. They had no issue for decades selling off the 'family silver' so to speak.

Nor had the majority of the UK voting public it would seem. No?

VinLieger · 04-11-2016 02:35PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Indeed, but then you do need representatives but I am under no illusion when it comes to MPs. They had no issue for decades selling off the 'family silver' so to speak.

Do you have any examples of this beyond your constantly hollow rhetoric?

A Little Pony · 04-11-2016 02:35PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

I am well aware that the MPs have sold us down the river for 40 years and selling sovereignty off in the bucket load. Theresa May has told Juncker and Merkel she will win the supreme Court case next month, so it actually looks like Parliament won't get a vote.

You have placed yourself in a minority here. Why a 'minority'? Because those 'traitorous MP's' continued to be elected for 40 years. And it also doesn't look like that is going to change unless UKIP win a majority and Labour and the Tories disappear.

Of course I am in a minority, I am on an Irish forum. Propagandist conforming and the need for anything but anarchism would explain why MPs are constantly voted in. Tony Blair after Iraq still won a general election, not because he was great but because his propaganda was fantastic until the people realized Labour had made a mess of the country.

the evasion_kid · 04-11-2016 02:35PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

I am fundamentally against the EU. It stands for things I just can't accept. The European Commission for me is the antithesis of democracy. The institution was designed to strip democratic rights away from sovereign nations and look to Federalize Europe.
I am against that and it seems the people who voted leave do too.

Time for a few more choice quotes....

I have never understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account at all,”
(French PM Raymond Barre)

One must never forget that monetary union, which the two of us were the first to propose more than a decade ago, is ultimately a political project. It aims to give a new impulse to the historic movement toward union of the European states”

The process of monetary union goes hand in hand, must go hand in hand, with political integration and ultimately political union. EMU [economic and monetary union] is, and always was meant to be, a stepping stone on the way to a united Europe”
(Wim Duisenberg, first president of the EU Central Bank)

No need to confuse people with the underlying institutions/history behind the current EU”
(EU Internet Handbook)

Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?,”
(Juncker on British calls for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty)

We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."(juncker on the introduction of the euro)

Yepp like I said psychopaths....

ohnonotgmail · 04-11-2016 02:36PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ouch!

https://twitter.com/ThomasPride/status/794234879105966080

a pretty fair summary.

FrancieBrady · 04-11-2016 02:37PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Of course I am in a minority, I am on an Irish forum. Propagandist conforming and the need for anything but anarchism would explain why MPs are constantly voted in. Tony Blair after Iraq still won a general election, not because he was great but because his propaganda was fantastic until the people realized Labour had made a mess of the country.

You are in a minority in the UK. The people of the UK simply do not believe what you do.

If you weren't, Nigel would be PM. (was that a shiver down my spine?)

ohnonotgmail · 04-11-2016 02:41PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are in a minority in the UK. The people of the UK simply do not believe what you do.

If you weren't, Nigel would be PM. (was that a shiver down my spine?)

Farage is like a dog chasing a car. wouldnt know what to do with it if he caught it. evidenced by his resignation immediately after the result was announced.

04-11-2016 02:44PM

Christy42 wrote: »

In fairness populist ignorance is democracy. It is the worst type of government except all the others we have tried.

Democracy does not always provide the best results for the people choosing an option.

Badly planned referendums being the worst of the lot. They have a unique ability to encourage populist ignorance.

A Little Pony · 04-11-2016 02:45PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Of course I am in a minority, I am on an Irish forum. Propagandist conforming and the need for anything but anarchism would explain why MPs are constantly voted in. Tony Blair after Iraq still won a general election, not because he was great but because his propaganda was fantastic until the people realized Labour had made a mess of the country.

You are in a minority in the UK. The people of the UK simply do not believe what you do.

If you weren't, Nigel would be PM. (was that a shiver down my spine?)

The British people voted to leave, I voted to leave. So that is a wrong assessment. But I would expect that from you.

A Little Pony · 04-11-2016 02:47PM

the evasion_kid wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

I am fundamentally against the EU. It stands for things I just can't accept. The European Commission for me is the antithesis of democracy. The institution was designed to strip democratic rights away from sovereign nations and look to Federalize Europe.
I am against that and it seems the people who voted leave do too.

Time for a few more choice quotes....

I have never understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account at all,
(French PM Raymond Barre)

One must never forget that monetary union, which the two of us were the first to propose more than a decade ago, is ultimately a political project. It aims to give a new impulse to the historic movement toward union of the European states

The process of monetary union goes hand in hand, must go hand in hand, with political integration and ultimately political union. EMU [economic and monetary union] is, and always was meant to be, a stepping stone on the way to a united Europe
(Wim Duisenberg, first president of the EU Central Bank)

No need to confuse people with the underlying institutions/history behind the current EU
(EU Internet Handbook)

Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?,
(Juncker on British calls for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty)

We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."(juncker on the introduction of the euro)

Yepp like I said psychopaths....

The leaders of this institution do the talking for me. If anyone wants to learn about the European Union, just read some of the quotes from its very leaders.

the evasion_kid · 04-11-2016 02:49PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

The leaders of this institution do the talking for me. If anyone wants to learn about the European Union, just read some of the quotes from its very leaders.

Very odd that people would support something like that...nearly as odd as some boards republicans supporting it(always give me a laugh!!)

FrancieBrady · 04-11-2016 02:52PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

The British people voted to leave, I voted to leave. So that is a wrong assessment. But I would expect that from you.

Sigh.

Your belief that MP's have somehow sold sovereignty and the 'family silver' down the river (everyone but the stupid saw that Parliment was sovereign yesterday) is a minority one.

The UK voted to leave in a non binding referendum. Yet YOU 'the democrat' refuse to accept that is all it was. Sigh again. The next while might be tough for you.

Chips Lovell · 04-11-2016 02:56PM

They voted to leave in an advisory referendum.

What the judgement really means is that the decision on the terms of leaving and whether they're acceptable now lies with parliament rather than the government.

If MPs get it wrong and misjudge what the public wants, they risk losing their seats in the next election.

A Little Pony · 04-11-2016 03:02PM

the evasion_kid wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

The leaders of this institution do the talking for me. If anyone wants to learn about the European Union, just read some of the quotes from its very leaders.

Very odd that people would support something like that...nearly as odd as some boards republicans supporting it(always give me a laugh!!)

I would question just how Irish Republican they are. It doesn't go with Republican doctrine to believe in such things as you quoted. Going all the way back to Wolfe Tone to Connolly, Irish Republicans are supposed to believe in the right to self determination and self government by the people for the people. The birth of Irish Republicanism was born on such values inspired by the US declaration of Independence.

Some of them would be in amazement at the support for the EU among some Republicans.

BsBox · 04-11-2016 03:04PM

the evasion_kid wrote: »

Time for a few more choice quotes....

I have never understood why public opinion about European ideas should be taken into account at all,”
(French PM Raymond Barre)

One must never forget that monetary union, which the two of us were the first to propose more than a decade ago, is ultimately a political project. It aims to give a new impulse to the historic movement toward union of the European states”

The process of monetary union goes hand in hand, must go hand in hand, with political integration and ultimately political union. EMU [economic and monetary union] is, and always was meant to be, a stepping stone on the way to a united Europe”
(Wim Duisenberg, first president of the EU Central Bank)

No need to confuse people with the underlying institutions/history behind the current EU”
(EU Internet Handbook)

Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?,”
(Juncker on British calls for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty)

We decide on something, leave it lying around, and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back."(juncker on the introduction of the euro)

Yepp like I said psychopaths....

It's absolutely ridiculous to pass some of these quotes off as if they represent the whole of the EU, especially since some of the people you're quoting haven't held office for years.
Raymond Barre, for example, was involved in the EU from 1967 to 1973. That's 43 years ago! In fact, he's been dead since 2007.
Wim Duisenberg's quote is from 17 years ago. Again, it's nice to pick and choose a few quotes and act as if that applies to every part of the EU, but it simply doesn't.

FrancieBrady · 04-11-2016 03:09PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

I would question just how Irish Republican they are. It doesn't go with Republican doctrine to believe in such things as you quoted. Going all the way back to Wolfe Tone to Connolly, Irish Republicans are supposed to believe in the right to self determination and self government by the people for the people. The birth of Irish Republicanism was born on such values inspired by the US declaration of Independence.

Some of them would be in amazement at the support for the EU among some Republicans.

This Irish republican believes that we were a subjugated people, which is slighty different.

This Irish republican also believes that the EU is not perfect but we are members of that Union and we have a say in it.
This Irish republican also believes that there will be things we HAVE to do for the betterment of all in the union.
This Irish republican doesn't take my understanding of how his government works or how the EU works from populist media and scaremongering.
This Irish republican also believes that Brexiters lack of knowledge and stubborn ignorance is being shown up by the day, and looks forward to their hypocritical stance being further exposed as they do the only thing they seem capable of doing efficiently - fulminate foamily and then disappear back from whence they came to think of a new rant.

A Little Pony · 04-11-2016 03:13PM

This Irish republican doesn't take my understanding of how his government works or how the EU works from populist media and scaremongering.

Are you trying to say I get my views from the newspapers? You could not be more wrong. The fact an Irish Republican supports the EU is flabbergasting to me but then I have studied the historical founding of the ideology and the two don't add up.

robindch · 04-11-2016 03:18PM

BsBox wrote: »

It's absolutely ridiculous to pass some of these quotes off as if they represent the whole of the EU

But such is the counter-reality necessary to sustain pro-brexit opinions.

Bill Maher made a useful, parallel point in a recent video about Trump - from 3:20 onwards:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-HDsmJbm_E

robindch · 04-11-2016 03:19PM

Meanwhile, somebody in Wales woke up this morning:

http://gov.wales/newsroom/firstminister/2016/161104supremecourt/?lang=en

Counsel General of Wales wrote:

The High Court yesterday handed down judgment in the above matter. The Court concluded that the UK Government does not have power to give notice under Article 50 for the UK to withdraw from the European Union using the Crown prerogative.

It has been widely announced that that this matter will be the subject of an appeal to the Supreme Court before the end of the year. In parallel, the High Court of Justice in Northern Ireland recently gave judgment in the matter of Re McCord’s Application. Again, it is widely understood that this matter will ultimately be joined to the proceedings before the Supreme Court.

Having considered the judgments in both matters, I consider that they raise issues of profound importance not only in relation to the concept of Parliamentary Sovereignty but also in relation to the wider constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom and the legal framework for devolution.

They raise questions about the use of the prerogative power to take steps which will or may impact on:
• the legislative competence of the National Assembly for Wales;
• the powers of the Welsh Ministers;
• the legal and constitutional relationships of the Assembly to Parliament;
• the legal and constitutional relationships of the Welsh Government to the UK Government; and
• the social and economic impact on Wales.

Therefore, in accordance with my power under section 67 of the Government of Wales Act 2006, I intend to make an application to be granted permission to intervene in the proposed appeal before the Supreme Court. My intention is to make representations about the specific implications of the government’s proposed decision for Wales.

I will make an oral statement to the Assembly next week.

Junkyard Tom · 04-11-2016 03:20PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

The fact an Irish Republican supports the EU.

I'd suspect for many it's not so much support as pragmatic acceptance. We're a small country with a small population who needs to be part of a bigger club of nations in a globalised world. One of the reasons we joined the EU was to offset the influence the British had over this country - it's a good thing we currently have our little boat lashed to the mainland as the ship next door looks like it's heading for choppy waters.

Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

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