Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

foxtrot101 · 03-11-2016 08:13PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The government can simply impose its will through the whip system.

I'm not sure that they would want risk it. They have a majority of just 15 + 8 DUP + 2 UUP + 1 UKIP. 185 conservative MP's were in favour of remaining in the EU.

catbear · 03-11-2016 08:21PM

Forget Corbyn, even the Corbynistas will eventually wake up and realize he's happy to take everyone back down coal pit.

Won't be surprised if there's a mass Labour defection to LibDems, a repositioning from hard left bark toward the centre.

steddyeddy · 03-11-2016 08:58PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That ruling was certainly surprising but I don't see what effect it will have.

The government can simply impose its will through the whip system.

On it's own party but not the SNP, who might save the day.

Capt'n Midnight · 03-11-2016 09:04PM

Snickers Man wrote: »

Do you even know what a fascist is?

. Fascists dress in black and go around telling people what to do, whereas... priests... More drink! (All cheer).

VinLieger · 03-11-2016 09:21PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Full of corrupt lying thieves. Brexiteers just need to keep the pressure on these people.

And yet your pretty obsessed with leaving the EU under the guise of strengthening parliamentary sovereignty and thus the power of these corrupt lying thieves?

A Little Pony wrote: »

Lucky its the 21st century lol.

Like you said, ignoring the vote will just make it much worse. If they want a slightly lighter Brexit, then perhaps go for that if it means Parliament will back it. I can't see how they can just ignore the vote completely.

I can see how they can do it...... its this little thing called a non-binding referendum.

You need to really learn the difference between "they shouldn't ignore the result" and them "not being able to ignore it." Evertime you repeat the latter you betray your just come across as wilfully ignorant

FrancieBrady · 03-11-2016 10:21PM

What you are probably seeing is May's game. She can now say to the gullible, 'I did everything I could', the Brexiteers will grumble, The UK will eat some humble pie, sit at the back of the room for a while and we will get back to normal.
And Nigel will make a fortune on the after fish and chips speech circuit, raising the rabble.

A Dub in Glasgo · 03-11-2016 10:59PM

https://twitter.com/Mnrrnt/status/794121923655507968

beach_walker · 03-11-2016 11:04PM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You mean like this from a previous referendum?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1979#Aftermath

Ohh interesting. Cheers.

SEPT 23 1989 · 03-11-2016 11:08PM

In ye olde days this would lead to civil war

MichaelScarn · 03-11-2016 11:10PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That ruling was certainly surprising but I don't see what effect it will have.

The government can simply impose its will through the whip system.

Exactly what should happen. They have to give the people what they voted for.

FrancieBrady · 03-11-2016 11:12PM

MichaelScarn wrote: »

Exactly what should happen. They have to give the people what they voted for.

They don't. Please try and understand the democratic system they have.

beach_walker · 03-11-2016 11:22PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What you are probably seeing is May's game. She can now say to the gullible, 'I did everything I could', the Brexiteers will grumble, The UK will eat some humble pie, sit at the back of the room for a while and we will get back to normal.
And Nigel will make a fortune on the after fish and chips speech circuit, raising the rabble.

Err yeah. The majority of the UK voters will just forget what they voted for (sure the Guardian assured us they're all Bregreters anyways right), the Tory anti-Europe fraction will melt like the wicked witch and UKIP voters will morph into lovable, cuddly Corbynistas. The other groupings with an interest in it (NI unionists, 30% of the SNP) will give up the game and accept the status quo. Problem solved, never to raise its head again *cough*

A Dub in Glasgo · 03-11-2016 11:43PM

Very irresponsible from the Daily Mail & Telegraph, it would appear democracy and the rule of law only suits in some circumstances

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/794305335158853634

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/794299942818971649

catbear · 03-11-2016 11:44PM

beach_walker wrote: »

Err yeah. The majority of the UK voters will just forget what they voted for (sure the Guardian assured us they're all Bregreters anyways right), the Tory anti-Europe fraction will melt like the wicked witch and UKIP voters will morph into lovable, cuddly Corbynistas. The other groupings with an interest in it (NI unionists, 30% of the SNP) will give up the game and accept the status quo. Problem solved, never to raise its head again *cough*

I do wonder what the SNP reaction will be in coming days. Upfront it could be thought that the independence drive isn't as pressing but is the debacle even more fuel for the drive to separate.

Will scotland have the patience to remain in a union with a highly divisive and volatile England/Wales when the path is open to join a much larger diverse union is available?

FrancieBrady · 03-11-2016 11:58PM

beach_walker wrote: »

Err yeah. The majority of the UK voters will just forget what they voted for (sure the Guardian assured us they're all Bregreters anyways right), the Tory anti-Europe fraction will melt like the wicked witch and UKIP voters will morph into lovable, cuddly Corbynistas. The other groupings with an interest in it (NI unionists, 30% of the SNP) will give up the game and accept the status quo. Problem solved, never to raise its head again *cough*

I think it really doesn't matter what the issue is. The problem in the UK is that a considerable rump (90% of brexiter's) want to knock government. It doesn't matter if it is the EU or the current UK government. They want a notion, something that never really existed.
Wait for the them versus us stories.

Grayson · 04-11-2016 12:04AM

catbear wrote: »

Forget Corbyn, even the Corbynistas will eventually wake up and realize he's happy to take everyone back down coal pit.

Won't be surprised if there's a mass Labour defection to LibDems, a repositioning from hard left bark toward the centre.

It'll be weird. 80% of the constituencies that labour have voted for brexit. If they vote against brexit in parliament and it fails to pass then brexit could lose them a lot of votes. If that happens then the voters won't swing to lib dems. Lib dems are anti brexit too. They won't go tory because tories are not representative for the working class. They may actually swing to UKIP.

I'd like to know how many tory constituencies voted remain and how that may affect their reelection prospects. Those voters may switch to lib dems or labour.

Either way, there's fixed term elections now so it's a few years to find out. Unless there's a constitutional crises and May gets kicked out, then snap elections may be needed.

Anita Blow · 04-11-2016 12:09AM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Very irresponsible from the Daily Mail & Telegraph, it would appear democracy and the rule of law only suits in some circumstances

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/794305335158853634

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/794299942818971649

Something very dystopic/V for Vendetta about those front pages

Skylinehead · 04-11-2016 12:14AM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Very irresponsible from the Daily Mail & Telegraph, it would appear democracy and the rule of law only suits in some circumstances

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/794305335158853634

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/794299942818971649

Free Giant Map of Britain inside, this is beyond parody :pac:

04-11-2016 12:21AM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Very irresponsible from the Daily Mail & Telegraph, it would appear democracy and the rule of law only suits in some circumstances

Can we add both of them to the list of those who don't seem to know how their country is actually governed? Rabble rousing rubbish from the Mail in particular.

Fratton Fred · 04-11-2016 12:42AM

catbear wrote: »

I do wonder what the SNP reaction will be in coming days. Upfront it could be thought that the independence drive isn't as pressing but is the debacle even more fuel for the drive to separate.

Will scotland have the patience to remain in a union with a highly divisive and volatile England/Wales when the path is open to join a much larger diverse union is available?

Hopefully they don't let the door hit them on the way out.

Fratton Fred · 04-11-2016 12:43AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Can we add both of them to the list of those who don't seem to know how their country is actually governed? Rabble rousing rubbish from the Mail in particular.

The tabloids are becoming increasingly more pathetic. I know several people, from both sides, that no longer read them.

They have become a parody of themselves.

wes · 04-11-2016 01:06AM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Very irresponsible from the Daily Mail & Telegraph, it would appear democracy and the rule of law only suits in some circumstances

Disturbing attack on the judiciary and democracy. Brexiters have imho lost the plot. How is allowing parliment to vote on the terms of leaving not democratic? The non-binding referendum, didn't spell out terms for leaving. Yes, parliment should and probably will heed the referendum, but for any factions of the press to go against democracy like that, and then to attack the judicary with what is borderline incitement is profoundly disturbing.

There is something deeply rotten with certain factions of the UK media.

Sand · 04-11-2016 01:07AM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Very irresponsible from the Daily Mail & Telegraph, it would appear democracy and the rule of law only suits in some circumstances

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/794305335158853634

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/794299942818971649

So a British court rules to give power to a British parliament...isn't this what the Brexiteers wanted?

Maybe they could appeal to the European Court of Justice? While they still can.

Seriously though - this is not a good outcome for anyone. The best outcome is a rapid Brexit with the UK running slap bang into the wall of reality outside the EU. As the above papers show there is still a deeply irrational, immature view of the UK and its relationship to the EU in the UK mainstream. In the media, the political set and the wider population.

Whilst it would be in the best interests of the UK for the British Parliament to vote down Brexit, it would simply return the UK to the status quo of being that guest at the party who loudly lets everyone know they're doing the host a favour by attending but wont feck off. Its best in the longterm interests of the EU and the UK if the UK does leave, realises that actually there was a reason they decided to join the EU in the first place, quash the likes of the Daily Mail and the Telegraph and begin the long, long road to regaining membership having recognised the EU is more than a conspiracy of 27 countries doing things to the UK.

Fleawuss · 04-11-2016 01:14AM

The British constitution "says" parliament is sovereign. The courts uphold that. The courts uphold the constitution and are condemned. It seems that Brexiteers want a new constitutional arrangement: if they are getting rid of the sovereignty of parliament then the role of the crown changes too. A republic? A new Cromwelllian protectorate? It is history being made on the hoof as a thousand years of the evolution of British democracy are undone by the tabloids. It really is extraordinary.

Iwasfrozen · 04-11-2016 02:45AM

foxtrot101 wrote: »

I'm not sure that they would want risk it. They have a majority of just 15 + 8 DUP + 2 UUP + 1 UKIP. 185 conservative MP's were in favour of remaining in the EU.

Sure but that's when the whip comes into play. A large group MPs ignoring the whip en mass is unheard of and would surely trigger a general election.

Harvey Normal · 04-11-2016 03:03AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sure but that's when the whip comes into play. A large group MPs ignoring the whip en mass is unheard of and would surely trigger a general election.

There are laws on general elections now and losing a vote that isn't specifically a no confidence vote doesn't trigger an election. I'm not even sure the government can force a confidence vote (in order to lose).

Labour are in no shape to fight an election.

Parliament is sovereign. I admire the way that Irish people have become British constitutional experts over night, but I've always believed that article 50 has to be specifically invoked by an act of Parliament - and certainly overturning the different EU acts needs parliament. And that might be hard with a Parliament that is largely pro EU. So this Parliament should refuse to invoke article 50, be dissolved,and an anti EU Parliament will take its place.

04-11-2016 03:41AM

catbear wrote: »

Forget Corbyn, even the Corbynistas will eventually wake up and realize he's happy to take everyone back down coal pit.

Won't be surprised if there's a mass Labour defection to LibDems, a repositioning from hard left bark toward the centre.

Would be more likely that the impending new political realignment becomes between pro- and anti-EU forces. I can see Britain's relationship with the EU as the defining division of English society and English identity for years to come.

04-11-2016 03:53AM

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You mean like this from a previous referendum?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum,_1979#Aftermath

Fascinating. Never knew that. If it was acceptable for the English to ignore the wishes of the majority of Scottish voters for devolution in the 1970s then surely the English vote for Brexit in 2016 can be equally ignored. Sauce for the goose...

TheCitizen · 04-11-2016 04:16AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Hopefully they don't let the door hit them on the way out.

Are you talking about the Scottish or the English? Don't think the English are in a position to criticise anyone given the mess they are making for themselves and the nuisance they've made of themselves.

darkpagandeath · 04-11-2016 04:16AM

I have had a great idea. Hold another Ref. Attach join the entire EZ including taking the Euro. Problem solved.

Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

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